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scaredyclassic
Participant[quote=outtamojo][quote=njtosd][quote=outtamojo]
What kind of person would be able to fully enjoy themselves in Heaven knowing that the other half of humanity, even people they knew or cared about was being tortured in Hell?[/quote]
Maybe Heaven is the ability to forget that there are any bad things anywhere. Like being a squirrel. No knowledge that there was a time before you, no knowledge that there will be a time after you, no knowledge that there is a hawk’s nest above your burrow, general enjoyment of acorns and other squirrels.[/quote]
Like in one of my fav’s Childhood’s End.[/quote]
aren’t prey animals like squirrels generally anxious and, well, squirrelly?
Participant[quote=njtosd][quote=outtamojo]
What kind of person would be able to fully enjoy themselves in Heaven knowing that the other half of humanity, even people they knew or cared about was being tortured in Hell?[/quote]
Maybe Heaven is the ability to forget that there are any bad things anywhere. Like being a squirrel. No knowledge that there was a time before you, no knowledge that there will be a time after you, no knowledge that there is a hawk’s nest above your burrow, general enjoyment of acorns and other squirrels.[/quote]
I am currently reading Proust.
Participant[quote=njtosd][quote=scaredyclassic]
i see no moral force. Abraham wanted to kill isaac because that’s how the video game played out, because he was a psychotic abusive dad. similarly, even if i heard the actual voice of G-d, and i knew for sure it wasnt just me being delusional, i would not sacrifice my son. because even if He exists, and he has an inscrutable plan, and he created me, I do NOT GIVE A SHIT, when he is just playing games with me, “testing” me. [/quote]
Reminds me of a thing by Norm McDonald – before he was Colonel Sanders:
http://www.cc.com/video-clips/i6sbip/stand-up-norm-macdonald–bob-the-devil%5B/quote%5D
norm is funny!
we are all wearing devil masks and Jesus masks, i guess, trying to scare and trick one another.
I so often feel I’m an impostor.
Participant[quote=outtamojo][quote=scaredyclassic]I may be dark, but the Bible is wayyyyy darker. Jesus is,supposed to be the fun part, but the bottom line is believe in him or spend all of time in hell. that seems…kind of a bummer
Abraham kicks ass. doesnt it seem like G-d kind of wants us to stand up to him, pipe up, not just sit there and take it?
maybe He can overreact a bit….and we need to calm him down. like me.[/quote]
What kind of person would be able to fully enjoy themselves in Heaven knowing that the other half of humanity, even people they knew or cared about was being tortured in Hell?[/quote]
people who possess and think and worry about money a lot, i.e., rich people, aren’t likely getting into heaven anyway.
wait….thats us….
i see no moral force. Abraham wanted to kill isaac because that’s how the video game played out, because he was a psychotic abusive dad. similarly, even if i heard the actual voice of G-d, and i knew for sure it wasnt just me being delusional, i would not sacrifice my son. because even if He exists, and he has an inscrutable plan, and he created me, I do NOT GIVE A SHIT, when he is just playing games with me, “testing” me. fuck you, Mr creator and your tests, and all the other patriarchal testing bullies out there in the real and virtual world, whether you’re the programmer of this world we think we inhabit, a military recruiter, a scammy preacher, a politician, Jesus or a fellow human.
the game runs and we try to pretend there is a moral narrative but it is like replaying a round of Grand Theft Auto and trying to find a moral message there where nothing but a meaningless unfurling of events possible within the rules unfolds.
I guess in the same way thato an evangelist gets pleasure from bringing someone to Christ, i get an equal inverse pleasure in the opposite possibility. I’m like a missionary for our utter aloneness in the universe.
I’m pretty sure I need therapy for this.
the isdue has to do with a general sense that I’m an idiot who believed certain lies. pretty sure this,anger has nothing really to do w religion.
Participantthe G-d of mixed messages. a moody highly abusive parent.
I hate authority generally.
grrr
ParticipantI may be dark, but the Bible is wayyyyy darker. Jesus is,supposed to be the fun part, but the bottom line is believe in him or spend all of time in hell. that seems…kind of a bummer
Abraham kicks ass. doesnt it seem like G-d kind of wants us to stand up to him, pipe up, not just sit there and take it?
maybe He can overreact a bit….and we need to calm him down. like me.
ParticipantG-d himself absolutely loves a good logical lawyerly argument. why shouldn’t we?
Abraham Pleads for Sodom
16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17 Then the Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him.[a] 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just, so that the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.”
20 Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”
22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.[b] 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare[c] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”
26 The Lord said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”
27 Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five people?”
“If I find forty-five there,” he said, “I will not destroy it.”
29 Once again he spoke to him, “What if only forty are found there?”
He said, “For the sake of forty, I will not do it.”
30 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?”
He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”
31 Abraham said, “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?”
He said, “For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it.”
32 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?”
He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.”
33 When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.
Participant[quote=njtosd][quote=scaredyclassic]I am open though to some sort of miracle conversion experience.
frankly, id love to see G-d win me over.
unlikely tho. im so mad at Him.[/quote]
I think trying to analyze this using logic is like trying to jack up your car using knitting needles. Logic and knitting needles are both useful tools – for their own purposes. This all sounds sort of dark for you, by the way.[/quote]
This is nothing. I’m a,pretty dark fellow. some days it all seems amusing. but usually the world looks to me filled with hypocritical, nasty, selfish people, using politics, religion, philosophy law or whatever weapon or tool is at hand to beat others down.
Participant[quote=harvey]
[/quote]does any religion say otherwise?
hell, we have trouble doing that on chat groups.
ParticipantOne of the problems with love thy neighbor as thyself is in imagining how to act onn it, we act on it from the position of where we are today. So, if we are very anxious about crime, loving our neighbor would be viewed as allowing him to have the same stash of guns we would want. We love others in the way we would wish to be loved, given our situation, our limited imagination of how others would want to be loved. It simply doesn’t allow for diverse ways one would imagine we need love.
Worse, though, is that it locks us into a worldview based on who we are. A more creative endeavor would be to imagine a scenario where we are not yet born and have no idea who we are in society. We could end up being anyone, from a homeless dude to a pedophile to the president. With no information on who we are and what we need, how might we interpret love your neighbor as yourself? What sort of society would best serve that goal? Without a reimagining of how things might be constructed from the ground up, love your neighbor as yourself is no different than saying, buy people gifts that you would like. Doing unto others what you would like done to you is a recipe for misunderstanding. We might not tolerate the pedophiles behavior, even if we turned out to be him, and would want to keep him in check. But is it really helpful to say love him as yourself? It’s just superficial and phony
ParticipantI am open though to some sort of miracle conversion experience.
frankly, id love to see G-d win me over.
unlikely tho. im so mad at Him.
Participant[quote=harvey][quote=scaredyclassic]man, jesus bugs me.[/quote]
His message, even when not perfectly conveyed, is still infinitely more compelling than your whining.[/quote]
what part of the message is compelling? the afterlife part? in general, when people threaten me, I do the opposite of what they want.
but when He threatens us, we are supposed to listen?
“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
yeah, well, your threats kind of undermine your message. chill out dude. I don’t like to be pushed around. no one does…on the other hand the sheep like a strong hand. without the threat of hell, and the promise of heaven, what’s left? be nice Cuz I said so?
also.
love thy neighbor as thyself is a dumb strategy in a society filled with self loathing assholes, like ours.
Participant[quote=zk][quote=njtosd]
Just for fun, imagine how a single day in your life would be different if everyone followed the 10 Commandments plus “Love thy neighbor as thyself” (both a Christian value and a quote from Leviticus). [/quote]Just for fun, imagine how a single day in your life would be different if everyone followed the word of the bible. Every word of the bible. The whole bible.[/quote]
You shall have no other gods before Me.
mmm. sounds like fighting words.
You shall not make idols.
ok. kinda vague and weird. bad for the idol industry, but ok. I get a lot out of literature, sports, nature..might suppose those are false idols I’ve created…
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
oddly threatening. fuck off…and why can’t I question his cruel device?
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
same. would be nice if we could at least not sell liquor tho.
Honor your father and your mother.
ok. that one’s nice. I approve.
You shall not murder.
for this we need a religion?
You shall not commit adultery.
uhhh….this one’s a tough sell in a modern feminist society. one mate, forever, no splitting up? ever?
You shall not steal.
I like it…but, like the next one…
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
easily covered by statute.
You shall not covet.
don’t do what we are naturally inclined to do. but its good advice. be happy with your lot in life…not sure a command to knock it off is effective though. perhaps psychotherapy would help?
not sure these 10 strictly followed uniquely help.
Participant[quote=harvey]Someone needs to take a drive out to the desert.
http://joshuatree.guide/salvation-mountain/
We lost Leonard a few years ago.
If you had met him, he may have changed your viewpoint.[/quote]
doubtful.
it feels inherently aggressive and coercive and even threatening to claim ,Jesus is the only way to heaven, you go to hell if you don’t believe and you should join up because our specific conception of G-d died for you. ya in grate.
christianity basically requires adherents to “spread the good news”, but it feels judgmental and coercive to be pummeled with that message…like, condescending and annoying.
I guess the evangelical pummeling views himself as just a friendly hand from a helpful Christian, but I don’t see it that way.
if the shoe was on the other foot, if I went around all day accosting strangers and encouraged kids to become Muslim because it’s the only way, I would be PUNCHED IN THE FACE. repeatedly…by christians. I bet I couldn’t do it for 10 minutes outside any church im the USA without someone calling the cops.
any religion that claims to be the ultimate truth , the basis of society and the only way to salvation is i think saying nonbelievers are incomplete at best and defective at worst and is therefore not friendly.
unless you handle snakes. poisonous ones. that I’m willing to listen about…
15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
I like that…maybe only the snake guys are going to heaven…even for Christians, who kinda take the bible literally, most would be irritated if a snake handling sect said snakiness was mandatory for heaven…because…most of us don’t WANT to handle poisonous snakes…
so, tring to convert someone to Christianity is as irritating as someone who constantly tried to get you to pick up a rattlesnake. because it’s obviously untrue, in our video simulation, there is no way belief inoculated against snakebite.
man, jesus bugs me.
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