[nocommonsense]

[quote=sdduuuude][quote=nocommonsense]The hyperthetical “asian” in your example WILL have a much lower chance EVEN if he has all those people skills.[/quote]

Agree with you on this, but the fact is the DON’T have the people skills because of the focus of their education.[/quote]

I know plenty asians who’re both techniquely creative and great team leaders and who have no chance in advancement. And then I think about the management I know who’re exclusively white and European/American and imagine putting them next to those wonderful attributes you mentioned they all supposedly have because they were not damaged by their non-asian parents. I can only shake my head.

[nocommonsense]

[quote=sdduuuude]The fact of the matter is – your career ends just below the manager level if you don’t know how to deal with people. If I’m hiring people and I need an engineer to work long hours, not get paid very much and do an excellent job implementing tedious crap – I’m going to hire the “Asain” guy. But if I need someone who is creative, who knows how to get others to work hard, to secure funding for a project, to design or manage others (i.e. to do a higher level job), I’m going to hire the guy who learned how to be social, friendly, persuasive, tactful, creative, etc. If being stuck doing tedious crap is your idea of success, then have at it.
[/quote]

You have some good points. But I think you underestimate the glass ceiling effect. A person of different cultural background WILL have a much more difficult time getting into management, period. It’s not necessarily discrimination but people always feel more comfortable around people who look like them and share a similar cultural background. That’s natural. Management is an exclusive club that takes a lot of things going right simultaneously technical or not, for a person to get into. The hyperthetical “asian” in your example WILL have a much lower chance EVEN if he has all those people skills.

On the other hand, look around, how many of your main stream non-asian managers are “creative” and “good with people”. Give me a break.

[nocommonsense]

[quote=sdduuuude]The fact of the matter is – your career ends just below the manager level if you don’t know how to deal with people. If I’m hiring people and I need an engineer to work long hours, not get paid very much and do an excellent job implementing tedious crap – I’m going to hire the “Asain” guy. But if I need someone who is creative, who knows how to get others to work hard, to secure funding for a project, to design or manage others (i.e. to do a higher level job), I’m going to hire the guy who learned how to be social, friendly, persuasive, tactful, creative, etc. If being stuck doing tedious crap is your idea of success, then have at it.
[/quote]

You have some good points. But I think you underestimate the glass ceiling effect. A person of different cultural background WILL have a much more difficult time getting into management, period. It’s not necessarily discrimination but people always feel more comfortable around people who look like them and share a similar cultural background. That’s natural. Management is an exclusive club that takes a lot of things going right simultaneously technical or not, for a person to get into. The hyperthetical “asian” in your example WILL have a much lower chance EVEN if he has all those people skills.

On the other hand, look around, how many of your main stream non-asian managers are “creative” and “good with people”. Give me a break.

[nocommonsense]

[quote=sdduuuude]The fact of the matter is – your career ends just below the manager level if you don’t know how to deal with people. If I’m hiring people and I need an engineer to work long hours, not get paid very much and do an excellent job implementing tedious crap – I’m going to hire the “Asain” guy. But if I need someone who is creative, who knows how to get others to work hard, to secure funding for a project, to design or manage others (i.e. to do a higher level job), I’m going to hire the guy who learned how to be social, friendly, persuasive, tactful, creative, etc. If being stuck doing tedious crap is your idea of success, then have at it.
[/quote]

You have some good points. But I think you underestimate the glass ceiling effect. A person of different cultural background WILL have a much more difficult time getting into management, period. It’s not necessarily discrimination but people always feel more comfortable around people who look like them and share a similar cultural background. That’s natural. Management is an exclusive club that takes a lot of things going right simultaneously technical or not, for a person to get into. The hyperthetical “asian” in your example WILL have a much lower chance EVEN if he has all those people skills.

On the other hand, look around, how many of your main stream non-asian managers are “creative” and “good with people”. Give me a break.

[nocommonsense]

[quote=sdduuuude]The fact of the matter is – your career ends just below the manager level if you don’t know how to deal with people. If I’m hiring people and I need an engineer to work long hours, not get paid very much and do an excellent job implementing tedious crap – I’m going to hire the “Asain” guy. But if I need someone who is creative, who knows how to get others to work hard, to secure funding for a project, to design or manage others (i.e. to do a higher level job), I’m going to hire the guy who learned how to be social, friendly, persuasive, tactful, creative, etc. If being stuck doing tedious crap is your idea of success, then have at it.
[/quote]

You have some good points. But I think you underestimate the glass ceiling effect. A person of different cultural background WILL have a much more difficult time getting into management, period. It’s not necessarily discrimination but people always feel more comfortable around people who look like them and share a similar cultural background. That’s natural. Management is an exclusive club that takes a lot of things going right simultaneously technical or not, for a person to get into. The hyperthetical “asian” in your example WILL have a much lower chance EVEN if he has all those people skills.

On the other hand, look around, how many of your main stream non-asian managers are “creative” and “good with people”. Give me a break.

[nocommonsense]

[quote=sdduuuude]The fact of the matter is – your career ends just below the manager level if you don’t know how to deal with people. If I’m hiring people and I need an engineer to work long hours, not get paid very much and do an excellent job implementing tedious crap – I’m going to hire the “Asain” guy. But if I need someone who is creative, who knows how to get others to work hard, to secure funding for a project, to design or manage others (i.e. to do a higher level job), I’m going to hire the guy who learned how to be social, friendly, persuasive, tactful, creative, etc. If being stuck doing tedious crap is your idea of success, then have at it.
[/quote]

You have some good points. But I think you underestimate the glass ceiling effect. A person of different cultural background WILL have a much more difficult time getting into management, period. It’s not necessarily discrimination but people always feel more comfortable around people who look like them and share a similar cultural background. That’s natural. Management is an exclusive club that takes a lot of things going right simultaneously technical or not, for a person to get into. The hyperthetical “asian” in your example WILL have a much lower chance EVEN if he has all those people skills.

On the other hand, look around, how many of your main stream non-asian managers are “creative” and “good with people”. Give me a break.

[nocommonsense]

I know quite a few second or later generation Chinese immigrants who lived in roach infested one bedroom apartments with both parents and siblings growing up. They’re now wealthy successful adults as doctors and professionals living in the most expensive neighborhoods of San Diego. I’m not nearly as successful as some of them are. But I came to this country with two suitcases and one month’s living expenses and I’m now doing quite well economically.

That’s why I have zero patience for racially based whining coming from a certain ethnic group. And in spite of the fact that I’m fully aware of the existence of glass ceilings and discrimination (hey I’m a minority myself!), I despise Affirmative Action, a travesty of justice.

[nocommonsense]

I know quite a few second or later generation Chinese immigrants who lived in roach infested one bedroom apartments with both parents and siblings growing up. They’re now wealthy successful adults as doctors and professionals living in the most expensive neighborhoods of San Diego. I’m not nearly as successful as some of them are. But I came to this country with two suitcases and one month’s living expenses and I’m now doing quite well economically.

That’s why I have zero patience for racially based whining coming from a certain ethnic group. And in spite of the fact that I’m fully aware of the existence of glass ceilings and discrimination (hey I’m a minority myself!), I despise Affirmative Action, a travesty of justice.

[nocommonsense]

I know quite a few second or later generation Chinese immigrants who lived in roach infested one bedroom apartments with both parents and siblings growing up. They’re now wealthy successful adults as doctors and professionals living in the most expensive neighborhoods of San Diego. I’m not nearly as successful as some of them are. But I came to this country with two suitcases and one month’s living expenses and I’m now doing quite well economically.

That’s why I have zero patience for racially based whining coming from a certain ethnic group. And in spite of the fact that I’m fully aware of the existence of glass ceilings and discrimination (hey I’m a minority myself!), I despise Affirmative Action, a travesty of justice.

[nocommonsense]

I know quite a few second or later generation Chinese immigrants who lived in roach infested one bedroom apartments with both parents and siblings growing up. They’re now wealthy successful adults as doctors and professionals living in the most expensive neighborhoods of San Diego. I’m not nearly as successful as some of them are. But I came to this country with two suitcases and one month’s living expenses and I’m now doing quite well economically.

That’s why I have zero patience for racially based whining coming from a certain ethnic group. And in spite of the fact that I’m fully aware of the existence of glass ceilings and discrimination (hey I’m a minority myself!), I despise Affirmative Action, a travesty of justice.

[nocommonsense]

I know quite a few second or later generation Chinese immigrants who lived in roach infested one bedroom apartments with both parents and siblings growing up. They’re now wealthy successful adults as doctors and professionals living in the most expensive neighborhoods of San Diego. I’m not nearly as successful as some of them are. But I came to this country with two suitcases and one month’s living expenses and I’m now doing quite well economically.

That’s why I have zero patience for racially based whining coming from a certain ethnic group. And in spite of the fact that I’m fully aware of the existence of glass ceilings and discrimination (hey I’m a minority myself!), I despise Affirmative Action, a travesty of justice.

[nocommonsense]

I think the fundamental difference between asian (Chinese, Korean, Japanese) and western parenting is that the asian parents are more willing to push their kids harder to do things they don’t automatically want to do due to mainly laziness. American parenting has a strong aversion to doing this.

If you push just the right amount, the kids accomplish more than they’d otherwise on their own. They become successful adults and they thank you for it. The trick is not to push TOO hard.

[nocommonsense]

I think the fundamental difference between asian (Chinese, Korean, Japanese) and western parenting is that the asian parents are more willing to push their kids harder to do things they don’t automatically want to do due to mainly laziness. American parenting has a strong aversion to doing this.

If you push just the right amount, the kids accomplish more than they’d otherwise on their own. They become successful adults and they thank you for it. The trick is not to push TOO hard.

[nocommonsense]

I think the fundamental difference between asian (Chinese, Korean, Japanese) and western parenting is that the asian parents are more willing to push their kids harder to do things they don’t automatically want to do due to mainly laziness. American parenting has a strong aversion to doing this.

If you push just the right amount, the kids accomplish more than they’d otherwise on their own. They become successful adults and they thank you for it. The trick is not to push TOO hard.

[nocommonsense]

I think the fundamental difference between asian (Chinese, Korean, Japanese) and western parenting is that the asian parents are more willing to push their kids harder to do things they don’t automatically want to do due to mainly laziness. American parenting has a strong aversion to doing this.

If you push just the right amount, the kids accomplish more than they’d otherwise on their own. They become successful adults and they thank you for it. The trick is not to push TOO hard.

[Author]

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