[drboom]

[quote=bearishgurl]I stand by my assertion that buying a FSBO does NOT save the buyer any money. Therefore, I would surmise that eliminating commission would shave little to nothing off the the purchase price for the buyer.[/quote]

Let’s see …

On one side we have an internationally known economist who wrote a book that sold 4 million copies and got vetted by the world’s smartest people.

On the other side, we have a local real estate agent’s assertion in an online forum.

I think we’ll need some data to back up that assertion.

Also, do you care to answer the questions I asked in the last part of my post above? I think you owe me that much after all the questions I answered. 🙂

[drboom]

[quote=bearishgurl]I stand by my assertion that buying a FSBO does NOT save the buyer any money. Therefore, I would surmise that eliminating commission would shave little to nothing off the the purchase price for the buyer.[/quote]

Let’s see …

On one side we have an internationally known economist who wrote a book that sold 4 million copies and got vetted by the world’s smartest people.

On the other side, we have a local real estate agent’s assertion in an online forum.

I think we’ll need some data to back up that assertion.

Also, do you care to answer the questions I asked in the last part of my post above? I think you owe me that much after all the questions I answered. 🙂

[drboom]

Jupiter would look a lot nicer if the skies were steadier. 🙁 At least it’s not cloudy like it has been all summer. Now, what have we here?

[quote=sdrealtor]DR B
This is all very easy to settle. You claim to have prospered but the truth is you dont even know whether you did.[/quote]

Sorry, but that’s condescending. I know the comps backwards and forwards around here and have followed them closely for years. It’s not that complicated: accounting for both rebates and the money we spent getting things squared away the way we like it (moved a door, added a window, custom Craftsman-style trim throughout, new HVAC, etc.), we paid the going rate. The going rate was rather down at the time. 🙂

We could easily rent the joint out for 20% more than our PITI plus trash and water/sewer. This assumes that water use triples and that we keep the rent 5-10% below the neighborhood average to avoid vacancy.

Yeah, we did OK. We couldn’t afford to rent this place, but we can very comfortably afford to be in hock to a bank for 30 years for it. That’s a good deal in anyone’s book. As an added bonus, we got almost exactly what we wanted and where we wanted it. We’ll probably never move again, so we’ll let our kids worry about whether it will sell for more in the future.

[quote]So what say you? Ready to settle this once and for all?[/quote]

I already did. You can believe me or not as you see fit.

[drboom]

Jupiter would look a lot nicer if the skies were steadier. 🙁 At least it’s not cloudy like it has been all summer. Now, what have we here?

[quote=sdrealtor]DR B
This is all very easy to settle. You claim to have prospered but the truth is you dont even know whether you did.[/quote]

Sorry, but that’s condescending. I know the comps backwards and forwards around here and have followed them closely for years. It’s not that complicated: accounting for both rebates and the money we spent getting things squared away the way we like it (moved a door, added a window, custom Craftsman-style trim throughout, new HVAC, etc.), we paid the going rate. The going rate was rather down at the time. 🙂

We could easily rent the joint out for 20% more than our PITI plus trash and water/sewer. This assumes that water use triples and that we keep the rent 5-10% below the neighborhood average to avoid vacancy.

Yeah, we did OK. We couldn’t afford to rent this place, but we can very comfortably afford to be in hock to a bank for 30 years for it. That’s a good deal in anyone’s book. As an added bonus, we got almost exactly what we wanted and where we wanted it. We’ll probably never move again, so we’ll let our kids worry about whether it will sell for more in the future.

[quote]So what say you? Ready to settle this once and for all?[/quote]

I already did. You can believe me or not as you see fit.

[drboom]

Jupiter would look a lot nicer if the skies were steadier. 🙁 At least it’s not cloudy like it has been all summer. Now, what have we here?

[quote=sdrealtor]DR B
This is all very easy to settle. You claim to have prospered but the truth is you dont even know whether you did.[/quote]

Sorry, but that’s condescending. I know the comps backwards and forwards around here and have followed them closely for years. It’s not that complicated: accounting for both rebates and the money we spent getting things squared away the way we like it (moved a door, added a window, custom Craftsman-style trim throughout, new HVAC, etc.), we paid the going rate. The going rate was rather down at the time. 🙂

We could easily rent the joint out for 20% more than our PITI plus trash and water/sewer. This assumes that water use triples and that we keep the rent 5-10% below the neighborhood average to avoid vacancy.

Yeah, we did OK. We couldn’t afford to rent this place, but we can very comfortably afford to be in hock to a bank for 30 years for it. That’s a good deal in anyone’s book. As an added bonus, we got almost exactly what we wanted and where we wanted it. We’ll probably never move again, so we’ll let our kids worry about whether it will sell for more in the future.

[quote]So what say you? Ready to settle this once and for all?[/quote]

I already did. You can believe me or not as you see fit.

[drboom]

Jupiter would look a lot nicer if the skies were steadier. 🙁 At least it’s not cloudy like it has been all summer. Now, what have we here?

[quote=sdrealtor]DR B
This is all very easy to settle. You claim to have prospered but the truth is you dont even know whether you did.[/quote]

Sorry, but that’s condescending. I know the comps backwards and forwards around here and have followed them closely for years. It’s not that complicated: accounting for both rebates and the money we spent getting things squared away the way we like it (moved a door, added a window, custom Craftsman-style trim throughout, new HVAC, etc.), we paid the going rate. The going rate was rather down at the time. 🙂

We could easily rent the joint out for 20% more than our PITI plus trash and water/sewer. This assumes that water use triples and that we keep the rent 5-10% below the neighborhood average to avoid vacancy.

Yeah, we did OK. We couldn’t afford to rent this place, but we can very comfortably afford to be in hock to a bank for 30 years for it. That’s a good deal in anyone’s book. As an added bonus, we got almost exactly what we wanted and where we wanted it. We’ll probably never move again, so we’ll let our kids worry about whether it will sell for more in the future.

[quote]So what say you? Ready to settle this once and for all?[/quote]

I already did. You can believe me or not as you see fit.

[drboom]

Jupiter would look a lot nicer if the skies were steadier. 🙁 At least it’s not cloudy like it has been all summer. Now, what have we here?

[quote=sdrealtor]DR B
This is all very easy to settle. You claim to have prospered but the truth is you dont even know whether you did.[/quote]

Sorry, but that’s condescending. I know the comps backwards and forwards around here and have followed them closely for years. It’s not that complicated: accounting for both rebates and the money we spent getting things squared away the way we like it (moved a door, added a window, custom Craftsman-style trim throughout, new HVAC, etc.), we paid the going rate. The going rate was rather down at the time. 🙂

We could easily rent the joint out for 20% more than our PITI plus trash and water/sewer. This assumes that water use triples and that we keep the rent 5-10% below the neighborhood average to avoid vacancy.

Yeah, we did OK. We couldn’t afford to rent this place, but we can very comfortably afford to be in hock to a bank for 30 years for it. That’s a good deal in anyone’s book. As an added bonus, we got almost exactly what we wanted and where we wanted it. We’ll probably never move again, so we’ll let our kids worry about whether it will sell for more in the future.

[quote]So what say you? Ready to settle this once and for all?[/quote]

I already did. You can believe me or not as you see fit.

[drboom]

Good grief, this is getting ridiculous.

[quote=bearishgurl]When the facts became more clear in drboom’s case, he WAS represented the first time by a former colleague of the listing agent[/quote]

Change to “would have been represented…”, and I would have received a four figure check.

[quote]and he engaged in a dual agency with the same listing agent in the second, successful transaction.[/quote]

Now where in the hell did you get that? Dual agency? What? I had my agent, and the seller had theirs. My agent split his co-op commission with me 50/50. I got a four figure check a week or so after closing and put it in the smoking crater that used to be my bank account.

[quote]In both instances[/quote]

I wrote about three, actually.

[quote]drboom posted about here, he WAS represented by an agent[/quote]

Totally wrong in the first case, barely hairsplitting right in the second case, and correct in the third case.

[quote]but he emphatically denied this and stated he was representing himself. (No offense to you, drboom – many, many buyers do not understand this concept.)[/quote]

It’s starting to look like I’m a lot smarter than you. No offense to you, of course. I fully understand the legalities even if I don’t know which CAR form to fill out when my bung itches. I signed exactly one agreement with an agent.

[quote]If truth be told and documents examined, I maintain that unrepresented buyers are actually engaged in a dual agency with the listing agent! [/quote]

Leave the technicalities to the lawyers. What is true is that Realtors(tm) have a monopoly on the only realistically priced inventory: short sales and REOs. Good for you. What’s also true is that buyers who are willing to do their homework can negotiate a better deal for themselves to mitigate some of the gouging. Yes, the California average of 5% is “gouging”. Thirty grand to sell the average house in San Diego is ridiculous.

[quote]It is also clear that a number of buyers think they can get paid a “commission” even if it is not contracted for PRIOR to an offer being drafted as there is no provision for commission to be paid to an unlicensed principal within the offer to purchase. If that offer is accepted on its face, escrow is opened and the instructions are drafted from the accepted offer.[/quote]

I got a check. I don’t care if you call it “commission” or “fettuccine alfredo”, it was paid out of the commission proceeds. Moreover, I did the fee split deal with my agent on a handshake … because that’s how honorable people do business whenever possible. Nothing was in writing to satisfy your obsession with paperwork.

[quote]I now wonder if these buyers realize they CAN be properly represented and also ask for 10% off the purchase price and some more concessions, to boot.[/quote]

Nope, never occurred to me. (*–forehead slap–*)

Carry on without me, please.

[drboom]

Good grief, this is getting ridiculous.

[quote=bearishgurl]When the facts became more clear in drboom’s case, he WAS represented the first time by a former colleague of the listing agent[/quote]

Change to “would have been represented…”, and I would have received a four figure check.

[quote]and he engaged in a dual agency with the same listing agent in the second, successful transaction.[/quote]

Now where in the hell did you get that? Dual agency? What? I had my agent, and the seller had theirs. My agent split his co-op commission with me 50/50. I got a four figure check a week or so after closing and put it in the smoking crater that used to be my bank account.

[quote]In both instances[/quote]

I wrote about three, actually.

[quote]drboom posted about here, he WAS represented by an agent[/quote]

Totally wrong in the first case, barely hairsplitting right in the second case, and correct in the third case.

[quote]but he emphatically denied this and stated he was representing himself. (No offense to you, drboom – many, many buyers do not understand this concept.)[/quote]

It’s starting to look like I’m a lot smarter than you. No offense to you, of course. I fully understand the legalities even if I don’t know which CAR form to fill out when my bung itches. I signed exactly one agreement with an agent.

[quote]If truth be told and documents examined, I maintain that unrepresented buyers are actually engaged in a dual agency with the listing agent! [/quote]

Leave the technicalities to the lawyers. What is true is that Realtors(tm) have a monopoly on the only realistically priced inventory: short sales and REOs. Good for you. What’s also true is that buyers who are willing to do their homework can negotiate a better deal for themselves to mitigate some of the gouging. Yes, the California average of 5% is “gouging”. Thirty grand to sell the average house in San Diego is ridiculous.

[quote]It is also clear that a number of buyers think they can get paid a “commission” even if it is not contracted for PRIOR to an offer being drafted as there is no provision for commission to be paid to an unlicensed principal within the offer to purchase. If that offer is accepted on its face, escrow is opened and the instructions are drafted from the accepted offer.[/quote]

I got a check. I don’t care if you call it “commission” or “fettuccine alfredo”, it was paid out of the commission proceeds. Moreover, I did the fee split deal with my agent on a handshake … because that’s how honorable people do business whenever possible. Nothing was in writing to satisfy your obsession with paperwork.

[quote]I now wonder if these buyers realize they CAN be properly represented and also ask for 10% off the purchase price and some more concessions, to boot.[/quote]

Nope, never occurred to me. (*–forehead slap–*)

Carry on without me, please.

[drboom]

Good grief, this is getting ridiculous.

[quote=bearishgurl]When the facts became more clear in drboom’s case, he WAS represented the first time by a former colleague of the listing agent[/quote]

Change to “would have been represented…”, and I would have received a four figure check.

[quote]and he engaged in a dual agency with the same listing agent in the second, successful transaction.[/quote]

Now where in the hell did you get that? Dual agency? What? I had my agent, and the seller had theirs. My agent split his co-op commission with me 50/50. I got a four figure check a week or so after closing and put it in the smoking crater that used to be my bank account.

[quote]In both instances[/quote]

I wrote about three, actually.

[quote]drboom posted about here, he WAS represented by an agent[/quote]

Totally wrong in the first case, barely hairsplitting right in the second case, and correct in the third case.

[quote]but he emphatically denied this and stated he was representing himself. (No offense to you, drboom – many, many buyers do not understand this concept.)[/quote]

It’s starting to look like I’m a lot smarter than you. No offense to you, of course. I fully understand the legalities even if I don’t know which CAR form to fill out when my bung itches. I signed exactly one agreement with an agent.

[quote]If truth be told and documents examined, I maintain that unrepresented buyers are actually engaged in a dual agency with the listing agent! [/quote]

Leave the technicalities to the lawyers. What is true is that Realtors(tm) have a monopoly on the only realistically priced inventory: short sales and REOs. Good for you. What’s also true is that buyers who are willing to do their homework can negotiate a better deal for themselves to mitigate some of the gouging. Yes, the California average of 5% is “gouging”. Thirty grand to sell the average house in San Diego is ridiculous.

[quote]It is also clear that a number of buyers think they can get paid a “commission” even if it is not contracted for PRIOR to an offer being drafted as there is no provision for commission to be paid to an unlicensed principal within the offer to purchase. If that offer is accepted on its face, escrow is opened and the instructions are drafted from the accepted offer.[/quote]

I got a check. I don’t care if you call it “commission” or “fettuccine alfredo”, it was paid out of the commission proceeds. Moreover, I did the fee split deal with my agent on a handshake … because that’s how honorable people do business whenever possible. Nothing was in writing to satisfy your obsession with paperwork.

[quote]I now wonder if these buyers realize they CAN be properly represented and also ask for 10% off the purchase price and some more concessions, to boot.[/quote]

Nope, never occurred to me. (*–forehead slap–*)

Carry on without me, please.

[drboom]

Good grief, this is getting ridiculous.

[quote=bearishgurl]When the facts became more clear in drboom’s case, he WAS represented the first time by a former colleague of the listing agent[/quote]

Change to “would have been represented…”, and I would have received a four figure check.

[quote]and he engaged in a dual agency with the same listing agent in the second, successful transaction.[/quote]

Now where in the hell did you get that? Dual agency? What? I had my agent, and the seller had theirs. My agent split his co-op commission with me 50/50. I got a four figure check a week or so after closing and put it in the smoking crater that used to be my bank account.

[quote]In both instances[/quote]

I wrote about three, actually.

[quote]drboom posted about here, he WAS represented by an agent[/quote]

Totally wrong in the first case, barely hairsplitting right in the second case, and correct in the third case.

[quote]but he emphatically denied this and stated he was representing himself. (No offense to you, drboom – many, many buyers do not understand this concept.)[/quote]

It’s starting to look like I’m a lot smarter than you. No offense to you, of course. I fully understand the legalities even if I don’t know which CAR form to fill out when my bung itches. I signed exactly one agreement with an agent.

[quote]If truth be told and documents examined, I maintain that unrepresented buyers are actually engaged in a dual agency with the listing agent! [/quote]

Leave the technicalities to the lawyers. What is true is that Realtors(tm) have a monopoly on the only realistically priced inventory: short sales and REOs. Good for you. What’s also true is that buyers who are willing to do their homework can negotiate a better deal for themselves to mitigate some of the gouging. Yes, the California average of 5% is “gouging”. Thirty grand to sell the average house in San Diego is ridiculous.

[quote]It is also clear that a number of buyers think they can get paid a “commission” even if it is not contracted for PRIOR to an offer being drafted as there is no provision for commission to be paid to an unlicensed principal within the offer to purchase. If that offer is accepted on its face, escrow is opened and the instructions are drafted from the accepted offer.[/quote]

I got a check. I don’t care if you call it “commission” or “fettuccine alfredo”, it was paid out of the commission proceeds. Moreover, I did the fee split deal with my agent on a handshake … because that’s how honorable people do business whenever possible. Nothing was in writing to satisfy your obsession with paperwork.

[quote]I now wonder if these buyers realize they CAN be properly represented and also ask for 10% off the purchase price and some more concessions, to boot.[/quote]

Nope, never occurred to me. (*–forehead slap–*)

Carry on without me, please.

[drboom]

Good grief, this is getting ridiculous.

[quote=bearishgurl]When the facts became more clear in drboom’s case, he WAS represented the first time by a former colleague of the listing agent[/quote]

Change to “would have been represented…”, and I would have received a four figure check.

[quote]and he engaged in a dual agency with the same listing agent in the second, successful transaction.[/quote]

Now where in the hell did you get that? Dual agency? What? I had my agent, and the seller had theirs. My agent split his co-op commission with me 50/50. I got a four figure check a week or so after closing and put it in the smoking crater that used to be my bank account.

[quote]In both instances[/quote]

I wrote about three, actually.

[quote]drboom posted about here, he WAS represented by an agent[/quote]

Totally wrong in the first case, barely hairsplitting right in the second case, and correct in the third case.

[quote]but he emphatically denied this and stated he was representing himself. (No offense to you, drboom – many, many buyers do not understand this concept.)[/quote]

It’s starting to look like I’m a lot smarter than you. No offense to you, of course. I fully understand the legalities even if I don’t know which CAR form to fill out when my bung itches. I signed exactly one agreement with an agent.

[quote]If truth be told and documents examined, I maintain that unrepresented buyers are actually engaged in a dual agency with the listing agent! [/quote]

Leave the technicalities to the lawyers. What is true is that Realtors(tm) have a monopoly on the only realistically priced inventory: short sales and REOs. Good for you. What’s also true is that buyers who are willing to do their homework can negotiate a better deal for themselves to mitigate some of the gouging. Yes, the California average of 5% is “gouging”. Thirty grand to sell the average house in San Diego is ridiculous.

[quote]It is also clear that a number of buyers think they can get paid a “commission” even if it is not contracted for PRIOR to an offer being drafted as there is no provision for commission to be paid to an unlicensed principal within the offer to purchase. If that offer is accepted on its face, escrow is opened and the instructions are drafted from the accepted offer.[/quote]

I got a check. I don’t care if you call it “commission” or “fettuccine alfredo”, it was paid out of the commission proceeds. Moreover, I did the fee split deal with my agent on a handshake … because that’s how honorable people do business whenever possible. Nothing was in writing to satisfy your obsession with paperwork.

[quote]I now wonder if these buyers realize they CAN be properly represented and also ask for 10% off the purchase price and some more concessions, to boot.[/quote]

Nope, never occurred to me. (*–forehead slap–*)

Carry on without me, please.

[drboom]

[quote=bearishgurl]drboom, no one is accusing anyone here of “unethical business practices.” You’re not even an agent![/quote]

Screwing people in business deals is unethical, period. My standards are considerably higher than those mandated in codes of conduct.

[quote]I now understand almost everything, except these two things:

If this agent, referred to below, didn’t represent you in the failed short-sale transaction, did he represent you in transactions before that? If so, what was the outcome of that representation? i.e. rejected offer(s), failed escrow, etc.[/quote]

Never met him before.

[quote]And, when you represented yourself on the failed short-sale transaction, did the listing agent ever offer to give up any of his commission to entice the bank to accept your (short) offer to purchase? After all, wasn’t he/his broker going to be paid 100% of the commission since you were unrepresented and thus they didn’t have to split any with you?[/quote]

Fair question. We had a buyer’s agent–a former colleague of the listing agent–at a different brokerage lined up for the sole purpose of representing us during escrow–a fig leaf, if you will. We would have split the commission with that buyer’s agent. I never met that agent, let alone signed anything with him, since the deal never went into escrow.

[quote]Thank you for your patience ;=)[/quote]

I hope all this is of some value to the OP who is trying to figure out whether to go it alone. 😛

Perhaps he will note the disbelief coming from even enlightened Piggie RE agents when someone like me talks about how he didn’t follow the rules and still prospered.

FWIW, the residential real estate biz is a congregation of highly regulated smalltime saints compared to the commercial property leasing world. Those guys assume you know what you’re doing and pull no punches. I’ve handled a couple of commercial space deals for a company I worked for, and you absolutely must have a lawyer look at every single piece of paper before signing.

[drboom]

[quote=bearishgurl]drboom, no one is accusing anyone here of “unethical business practices.” You’re not even an agent![/quote]

Screwing people in business deals is unethical, period. My standards are considerably higher than those mandated in codes of conduct.

[quote]I now understand almost everything, except these two things:

If this agent, referred to below, didn’t represent you in the failed short-sale transaction, did he represent you in transactions before that? If so, what was the outcome of that representation? i.e. rejected offer(s), failed escrow, etc.[/quote]

Never met him before.

[quote]And, when you represented yourself on the failed short-sale transaction, did the listing agent ever offer to give up any of his commission to entice the bank to accept your (short) offer to purchase? After all, wasn’t he/his broker going to be paid 100% of the commission since you were unrepresented and thus they didn’t have to split any with you?[/quote]

Fair question. We had a buyer’s agent–a former colleague of the listing agent–at a different brokerage lined up for the sole purpose of representing us during escrow–a fig leaf, if you will. We would have split the commission with that buyer’s agent. I never met that agent, let alone signed anything with him, since the deal never went into escrow.

[quote]Thank you for your patience ;=)[/quote]

I hope all this is of some value to the OP who is trying to figure out whether to go it alone. 😛

Perhaps he will note the disbelief coming from even enlightened Piggie RE agents when someone like me talks about how he didn’t follow the rules and still prospered.

FWIW, the residential real estate biz is a congregation of highly regulated smalltime saints compared to the commercial property leasing world. Those guys assume you know what you’re doing and pull no punches. I’ve handled a couple of commercial space deals for a company I worked for, and you absolutely must have a lawyer look at every single piece of paper before signing.

[drboom]

[quote=bearishgurl]drboom, no one is accusing anyone here of “unethical business practices.” You’re not even an agent![/quote]

Screwing people in business deals is unethical, period. My standards are considerably higher than those mandated in codes of conduct.

[quote]I now understand almost everything, except these two things:

If this agent, referred to below, didn’t represent you in the failed short-sale transaction, did he represent you in transactions before that? If so, what was the outcome of that representation? i.e. rejected offer(s), failed escrow, etc.[/quote]

Never met him before.

[quote]And, when you represented yourself on the failed short-sale transaction, did the listing agent ever offer to give up any of his commission to entice the bank to accept your (short) offer to purchase? After all, wasn’t he/his broker going to be paid 100% of the commission since you were unrepresented and thus they didn’t have to split any with you?[/quote]

Fair question. We had a buyer’s agent–a former colleague of the listing agent–at a different brokerage lined up for the sole purpose of representing us during escrow–a fig leaf, if you will. We would have split the commission with that buyer’s agent. I never met that agent, let alone signed anything with him, since the deal never went into escrow.

[quote]Thank you for your patience ;=)[/quote]

I hope all this is of some value to the OP who is trying to figure out whether to go it alone. 😛

Perhaps he will note the disbelief coming from even enlightened Piggie RE agents when someone like me talks about how he didn’t follow the rules and still prospered.

FWIW, the residential real estate biz is a congregation of highly regulated smalltime saints compared to the commercial property leasing world. Those guys assume you know what you’re doing and pull no punches. I’ve handled a couple of commercial space deals for a company I worked for, and you absolutely must have a lawyer look at every single piece of paper before signing.

[Author]

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