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dbapig
Participantthis certainly is a weighty topic we should think about
Participantthis certainly is a weighty topic we should think about
Participantthis certainly is a weighty topic we should think about
Participantthis certainly is a weighty topic we should think about
June 5, 2010 at 10:13 PM in reply to: Has libertarianism been exposed for the fraud that it is? #560483Participant[quote=no_such_reality][quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=Arraya]
Now we just have to move away from the divine right of money and property. Which should also be driven by science.[/quote] Arraya: I’m curious about your last sentence, “…should also be driven by science”.
[/quote] What is the “correct” science. I find many pushing for the environment have a religion, not science. And if science, what about economics?
I saw an interesting article Thursday in the LA Times… Anyway, it’s online at the Detriot Free Pess. The basics, based on the 2007 model year, current technology can boost economy by 29% for $2200. The next leg up is switching to diesel, at a cost of $5900, it’ll net 37%. Finally, hybrids, at a cost of $9000 for a 50% gain.
The CAFE standard from 2007 to now has been 27.5 MPG.
So from a science and economics standpoint, the no brainer is the 29% for $2200. It also corresponds to the proposed 2016 CAFE standard.
Anybody want to guess at what price per gallon the $9000 hybrid cost pays for itself based on 12000 miles per year and 10 years of driving? $14.25/gallon…
Think the mileage is low and hurts the argument, fine use 15,000 miles per year. Ten years, breakeven is at $11.50 a gallon. Hmm, Hope everybody drives those hybrids ten years and 150,000 miles…[/quote]
You know most other industrialized non-oil producing countries ALREADY pay near that amt for gas, mainly by tariff/tax.
Japanese car companies got their start in US with great mileages. So the curse of not having oil domestically turned out to be a blessing in disguise.
Meanwhile having the oil wells in US is turning out to be a CURSE in disguise. We thought cheap oil was a given, not knowing the price we are paying environmentally, politically, militarily and economically…
June 5, 2010 at 10:13 PM in reply to: Has libertarianism been exposed for the fraud that it is? #560583Participant[quote=no_such_reality][quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=Arraya]
Now we just have to move away from the divine right of money and property. Which should also be driven by science.[/quote] Arraya: I’m curious about your last sentence, “…should also be driven by science”.
[/quote] What is the “correct” science. I find many pushing for the environment have a religion, not science. And if science, what about economics?
I saw an interesting article Thursday in the LA Times… Anyway, it’s online at the Detriot Free Pess. The basics, based on the 2007 model year, current technology can boost economy by 29% for $2200. The next leg up is switching to diesel, at a cost of $5900, it’ll net 37%. Finally, hybrids, at a cost of $9000 for a 50% gain.
The CAFE standard from 2007 to now has been 27.5 MPG.
So from a science and economics standpoint, the no brainer is the 29% for $2200. It also corresponds to the proposed 2016 CAFE standard.
Anybody want to guess at what price per gallon the $9000 hybrid cost pays for itself based on 12000 miles per year and 10 years of driving? $14.25/gallon…
Think the mileage is low and hurts the argument, fine use 15,000 miles per year. Ten years, breakeven is at $11.50 a gallon. Hmm, Hope everybody drives those hybrids ten years and 150,000 miles…[/quote]
You know most other industrialized non-oil producing countries ALREADY pay near that amt for gas, mainly by tariff/tax.
Japanese car companies got their start in US with great mileages. So the curse of not having oil domestically turned out to be a blessing in disguise.
Meanwhile having the oil wells in US is turning out to be a CURSE in disguise. We thought cheap oil was a given, not knowing the price we are paying environmentally, politically, militarily and economically…
June 5, 2010 at 10:13 PM in reply to: Has libertarianism been exposed for the fraud that it is? #561079Participant[quote=no_such_reality][quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=Arraya]
Now we just have to move away from the divine right of money and property. Which should also be driven by science.[/quote] Arraya: I’m curious about your last sentence, “…should also be driven by science”.
[/quote] What is the “correct” science. I find many pushing for the environment have a religion, not science. And if science, what about economics?
I saw an interesting article Thursday in the LA Times… Anyway, it’s online at the Detriot Free Pess. The basics, based on the 2007 model year, current technology can boost economy by 29% for $2200. The next leg up is switching to diesel, at a cost of $5900, it’ll net 37%. Finally, hybrids, at a cost of $9000 for a 50% gain.
The CAFE standard from 2007 to now has been 27.5 MPG.
So from a science and economics standpoint, the no brainer is the 29% for $2200. It also corresponds to the proposed 2016 CAFE standard.
Anybody want to guess at what price per gallon the $9000 hybrid cost pays for itself based on 12000 miles per year and 10 years of driving? $14.25/gallon…
Think the mileage is low and hurts the argument, fine use 15,000 miles per year. Ten years, breakeven is at $11.50 a gallon. Hmm, Hope everybody drives those hybrids ten years and 150,000 miles…[/quote]
You know most other industrialized non-oil producing countries ALREADY pay near that amt for gas, mainly by tariff/tax.
Japanese car companies got their start in US with great mileages. So the curse of not having oil domestically turned out to be a blessing in disguise.
Meanwhile having the oil wells in US is turning out to be a CURSE in disguise. We thought cheap oil was a given, not knowing the price we are paying environmentally, politically, militarily and economically…
June 5, 2010 at 10:13 PM in reply to: Has libertarianism been exposed for the fraud that it is? #561183Participant[quote=no_such_reality][quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=Arraya]
Now we just have to move away from the divine right of money and property. Which should also be driven by science.[/quote] Arraya: I’m curious about your last sentence, “…should also be driven by science”.
[/quote] What is the “correct” science. I find many pushing for the environment have a religion, not science. And if science, what about economics?
I saw an interesting article Thursday in the LA Times… Anyway, it’s online at the Detriot Free Pess. The basics, based on the 2007 model year, current technology can boost economy by 29% for $2200. The next leg up is switching to diesel, at a cost of $5900, it’ll net 37%. Finally, hybrids, at a cost of $9000 for a 50% gain.
The CAFE standard from 2007 to now has been 27.5 MPG.
So from a science and economics standpoint, the no brainer is the 29% for $2200. It also corresponds to the proposed 2016 CAFE standard.
Anybody want to guess at what price per gallon the $9000 hybrid cost pays for itself based on 12000 miles per year and 10 years of driving? $14.25/gallon…
Think the mileage is low and hurts the argument, fine use 15,000 miles per year. Ten years, breakeven is at $11.50 a gallon. Hmm, Hope everybody drives those hybrids ten years and 150,000 miles…[/quote]
You know most other industrialized non-oil producing countries ALREADY pay near that amt for gas, mainly by tariff/tax.
Japanese car companies got their start in US with great mileages. So the curse of not having oil domestically turned out to be a blessing in disguise.
Meanwhile having the oil wells in US is turning out to be a CURSE in disguise. We thought cheap oil was a given, not knowing the price we are paying environmentally, politically, militarily and economically…
June 5, 2010 at 10:13 PM in reply to: Has libertarianism been exposed for the fraud that it is? #561464Participant[quote=no_such_reality][quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=Arraya]
Now we just have to move away from the divine right of money and property. Which should also be driven by science.[/quote] Arraya: I’m curious about your last sentence, “…should also be driven by science”.
[/quote] What is the “correct” science. I find many pushing for the environment have a religion, not science. And if science, what about economics?
I saw an interesting article Thursday in the LA Times… Anyway, it’s online at the Detriot Free Pess. The basics, based on the 2007 model year, current technology can boost economy by 29% for $2200. The next leg up is switching to diesel, at a cost of $5900, it’ll net 37%. Finally, hybrids, at a cost of $9000 for a 50% gain.
The CAFE standard from 2007 to now has been 27.5 MPG.
So from a science and economics standpoint, the no brainer is the 29% for $2200. It also corresponds to the proposed 2016 CAFE standard.
Anybody want to guess at what price per gallon the $9000 hybrid cost pays for itself based on 12000 miles per year and 10 years of driving? $14.25/gallon…
Think the mileage is low and hurts the argument, fine use 15,000 miles per year. Ten years, breakeven is at $11.50 a gallon. Hmm, Hope everybody drives those hybrids ten years and 150,000 miles…[/quote]
You know most other industrialized non-oil producing countries ALREADY pay near that amt for gas, mainly by tariff/tax.
Japanese car companies got their start in US with great mileages. So the curse of not having oil domestically turned out to be a blessing in disguise.
Meanwhile having the oil wells in US is turning out to be a CURSE in disguise. We thought cheap oil was a given, not knowing the price we are paying environmentally, politically, militarily and economically…
June 5, 2010 at 10:05 PM in reply to: Has libertarianism been exposed for the fraud that it is? #560478Participant[quote=davelj]Libertarianism is a fraud just as communism is a fraud. To think that one extreme system (albeit more “logically consistent” in the case of libertarianism) is the best system for a diverse group of humans is the height of silliness.
I sympathize with the libertarians. (And I would consider myself a small-l libertarian – which is that I have libertarian leanings.) Libertarianism looks good on paper in a lot of ways, and brings a lot of good ideas to the table. But… to not acknowledge (1) market failures, and (2) the civil and social unrest that would result from an even greater concentration of wealth and power than we have now is to ignore some rather large problems with the philosophy as a whole.
Markets are GENERALLY better at allocating resources than any government, with all that implies. But, that’s not always the case. The hard core libertarians have a hard time acknowledging this. Which brings us to Emerson, “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.”[/quote]
I agree that Libertarianism and communism look good on paper but in reality, not so.
June 5, 2010 at 10:05 PM in reply to: Has libertarianism been exposed for the fraud that it is? #560578Participant[quote=davelj]Libertarianism is a fraud just as communism is a fraud. To think that one extreme system (albeit more “logically consistent” in the case of libertarianism) is the best system for a diverse group of humans is the height of silliness.
I sympathize with the libertarians. (And I would consider myself a small-l libertarian – which is that I have libertarian leanings.) Libertarianism looks good on paper in a lot of ways, and brings a lot of good ideas to the table. But… to not acknowledge (1) market failures, and (2) the civil and social unrest that would result from an even greater concentration of wealth and power than we have now is to ignore some rather large problems with the philosophy as a whole.
Markets are GENERALLY better at allocating resources than any government, with all that implies. But, that’s not always the case. The hard core libertarians have a hard time acknowledging this. Which brings us to Emerson, “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.”[/quote]
I agree that Libertarianism and communism look good on paper but in reality, not so.
June 5, 2010 at 10:05 PM in reply to: Has libertarianism been exposed for the fraud that it is? #561073Participant[quote=davelj]Libertarianism is a fraud just as communism is a fraud. To think that one extreme system (albeit more “logically consistent” in the case of libertarianism) is the best system for a diverse group of humans is the height of silliness.
I sympathize with the libertarians. (And I would consider myself a small-l libertarian – which is that I have libertarian leanings.) Libertarianism looks good on paper in a lot of ways, and brings a lot of good ideas to the table. But… to not acknowledge (1) market failures, and (2) the civil and social unrest that would result from an even greater concentration of wealth and power than we have now is to ignore some rather large problems with the philosophy as a whole.
Markets are GENERALLY better at allocating resources than any government, with all that implies. But, that’s not always the case. The hard core libertarians have a hard time acknowledging this. Which brings us to Emerson, “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.”[/quote]
I agree that Libertarianism and communism look good on paper but in reality, not so.
June 5, 2010 at 10:05 PM in reply to: Has libertarianism been exposed for the fraud that it is? #561178Participant[quote=davelj]Libertarianism is a fraud just as communism is a fraud. To think that one extreme system (albeit more “logically consistent” in the case of libertarianism) is the best system for a diverse group of humans is the height of silliness.
I sympathize with the libertarians. (And I would consider myself a small-l libertarian – which is that I have libertarian leanings.) Libertarianism looks good on paper in a lot of ways, and brings a lot of good ideas to the table. But… to not acknowledge (1) market failures, and (2) the civil and social unrest that would result from an even greater concentration of wealth and power than we have now is to ignore some rather large problems with the philosophy as a whole.
Markets are GENERALLY better at allocating resources than any government, with all that implies. But, that’s not always the case. The hard core libertarians have a hard time acknowledging this. Which brings us to Emerson, “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.”[/quote]
I agree that Libertarianism and communism look good on paper but in reality, not so.
June 5, 2010 at 10:05 PM in reply to: Has libertarianism been exposed for the fraud that it is? #561460Participant[quote=davelj]Libertarianism is a fraud just as communism is a fraud. To think that one extreme system (albeit more “logically consistent” in the case of libertarianism) is the best system for a diverse group of humans is the height of silliness.
I sympathize with the libertarians. (And I would consider myself a small-l libertarian – which is that I have libertarian leanings.) Libertarianism looks good on paper in a lot of ways, and brings a lot of good ideas to the table. But… to not acknowledge (1) market failures, and (2) the civil and social unrest that would result from an even greater concentration of wealth and power than we have now is to ignore some rather large problems with the philosophy as a whole.
Markets are GENERALLY better at allocating resources than any government, with all that implies. But, that’s not always the case. The hard core libertarians have a hard time acknowledging this. Which brings us to Emerson, “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.”[/quote]
I agree that Libertarianism and communism look good on paper but in reality, not so.
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