[bearishgurl]

[quote=squat250]We don’t want anyone chained for life to debt…other than people who tried and failed to get ahead thru schooling?[/quote]

I understand what you’re trying to say here, scaredy. But there are many options for post-secondary “schooling” that do NOT require taking out exorbitant student loans.

There is ROP thru the CC’s (to learn to be a well-paid HVAC mechanic), for example; there is an Associate in Accounting which will allow one to be a well-paid payables/receivables or payroll specialist; there is a 9-18 month CC course (or <=$10K for a "private" school) to be a "medical assistant" or other medical or dental specialist; and, there is a bachelor degree at SDSU while living with parents to obtain a degree in various business fields while participating in a "work-study" program. The list is endless. Where I live, the most established realtors put their family members on staff whilst they simultaneously prepare them for state licensing. They work as receptionists, open-house sitters and even transaction coordinators for the successful agent/broker. There are so many ways to make money in lieu of spending the better part of a decade in school FT incurring debt that will take a lifetime (or MORE, lol) to pay back. Those students who elected to take on this exorbitant debt made poor choices when they had other, more feasible alternatives at their disposal. Sometimes a student needs to forego their pie-in-the-sky "dreams" of what they "think" they might want to do for a living and revise them to a more realistic and attainable goal. That's how life is. We all can't be celebrities.

[bearishgurl]

scaredy, you’re probably aware that in a divorce proceeding, a degree conferred upon one of the parties or a personal injury award for injuries sustained by one of the parties is NOT dividable, by law. It belongs to the party who earned the degree or sustained the injury. As does the student-loan taken out by the party who received the education that it paid for.

These things are part of the person so affected. You can’t take away the education from their minds or the injury from their bodies. It belongs to no one else but the affected persons.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=squat250]Should, but…probably won’t .

Doesn’t seem right to never be able to discharge tuition loans.

Maybe if people forfeited the degree? No license?

I mean, why be able to discharge a quarter million borrowed to start a failed pet grooming biz, but not a quarter million borrowed for law school tuition? Assuming u forfeit the degree.

Stay on the hook for borrowed living expenses.[/quote]

scaredy, I could see being ineligible for a state license if your loan to obtain that license was discharged. But a degree is part of the student. It stays with them and you can’t take it away. In the case of an attorney, they HAVE that JD or LLM. You can’t take it away. This advanced degree could and does qualify them for many professional positions even if they cannot “practice” law.

I’ll use myself for an example here. In CA, JD’s, LLM’s and CPA’s also get to use their advanced degrees (and licensing, if applicable) for perks such as taking the CA RE Brokers exam. Peons like me can “qualify” to take it by virtue of the requisite education and experience as a RE Salesperson but my experience as a “Salesperson” is not “consecutive.” Thus, I don’t qualify to take it based upon this technicality. I didn’t have access to this “free” advanced education (by virtue of it being “discharged”). There are many THOUSANDS of people like me.

It’s a very (unfair) slippery slope.

[bearishgurl]

Essentially, what I’m trying to say here is that many first-timers coming into the market today will actually NOT purchase anything that wouldn’t be considered a “move-up” property. They wish only to go from nothing or a rental to a “move-up” property.

I believe RE in coastal CA counties is categorized in a “caste system.” Thus, there are first-time properties, move up properties and luxury properties. Many areas and zip codes have all three within them. Some areas have nicer properties for the money than other areas. One has to have “sweat equity” and “pay their dues” before “moving up” to the next rung of RE.

That’s the way it always was before lending “funny money” became the norm.

The “funny money” flowing for years caused first timers and other moderate income buyers expectations to be all over the map … into the stratosphere. The presence of layers of new urban sprawl coming online during the same time period didn’t help matters any.

I’ll say it again. A buyer in a coastal CA county taking out a 80% mortgage or better doesn’t NEED infinite choices. They need to know where they can afford to live and how big of a lot they need. The rest will eventually take care of itself :=]

[bearishgurl]

[quote=ltsdd]…I don’t have a problem with someone saying MM is tough for buyers right now. However, to correlate low inventory (tough for buyers) to a market being on fire is absurd to say the least.[/quote]

I agree with this statement. An area having “low inventory” and being “on fire” are NOT one and the same. This doesn’t apply only to MM. Thousands of “potential sellers” in SD County are still on the fence … for GOOD reason! They don’t want to have to price their properties to compete with deep-pocketed lenders and (crooked) SS listing agents!

I don’t believe the inventory is so low anywhere that a young family looking within it can’t find ANYTHING suitable in their price ranges. The reality is probably somewhere in the middle … (1) buyers are too picky given their qualifications; (2) buyers don’t have enough downpayment to compete with those who do; (3) and, some buyers may be delusional and insist on shopping in areas where their offers will NEVER be accepted, that is, shopping in areas “out of their league.”

Everyone who has a sufficient downpayment and credit rating CAN buy something that their income will qualify them for. Whether they actually perceive it as a good place to live is the $64M question. If they don’t like what’s on offer in areas they can afford, they can continue to rent.

I think it’s really hard for current buyers to be practical, ESP FT buyers. They’ve seen all these unqualified families living in areas and/or properties over the last few years that they never should have qualified to buy in the first place. Even though this phenomenon was phony because they used “funny money,” it raises the bar on many of today’s buyers’ “minimum requirements.”

There IS stuff to buy out there …. everywhere …. yes, listed on the MLS. Many of the the “traditional FT buyers’ listings” are out there gathering dust.

[bearishgurl]

Unfortunately, it isn’t fair to bail out student-loan debtors with public and private university degrees and even graduate degrees. There are many, MANY students (past and present) who elected NOT to pursue college past the certificate or associate degree level (public CC or “jr college” in other states) due to cost and not wanting to be a burden on their middle-aged parents with few assets. This DOESN’T MEAN these students who DID NOT elect to take debt out were not accepted into a university or were otherwise unqualified to be admitted. It means they didn’t go due to cost alone. Many went directly to work FT in a “family biz” upon HS or CC graduation.

Former students need to take responsibility for their choices. If a student borrowed enough for living expenses over and above tuition, fees and books, this is akin to a home-debtor taking “cash out” of their properties to purchase whatever they wanted with it. A young person of the same age who didn’t take out student loans did not have this cash to spend during those years.

I’ve also seen a lot of whining on the internet from middle-aged people who have elected to take out student loans to “retrain” at $1K+ per month institutions such as Nat’l University and Univ of Phoenix and now want Congress to forgive all or most of it. I don’t feel sorry for them at all. Those that owned property should have borrowed from it (like all the other FB’s did who bought vehicles/vacations, etc), used the funds to pay for their educations and then defaulted on their “secured” loan. It’s the American way. Why someone 50+ years of age or even 45+ years of age would borrow $100K+ or even $65K to obtain an advanced degree or credential from a private institution is absolutely beyond my comprehension! Practically speaking, they won’t be able to be employed long enough to pay it back (that is, if they actually get hired for the professional positions they trained for), let alone live long enough to pay all of it back.

These foolish individuals will undoubtedly take their student debt to their graves and it probably won’t come close to ever being satisfied.

The government guarantee thru Sallie Mae should be done away with and tuition and fees at both public and private universities would immediately begin reducing in price, accordingly. If this causes the “lofty and exalted professors, department heads and deans” to take huge cuts in pay (for working 18-32 hrs per week, nine months a year), so be it.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=sdrealtor]Every house I selling in MM has multiple offers on it. Those are bidding wars and they are everywhere. You are looking backward whereas I see the present and whats ahead. It aint pretty if you are a buyer.

I just stopped by Sorrento Heights. They released 13 homes that are probably the worst locations they have and sold 7 already. Most of the early buyers defer waiting for better locations. They will all be gone in a week or two. Those are houses with MR (the only ones in that area that have them) and HOA (most dont have them and certainly not this high) priced well over $100K above existing home resales.

The market has already turned and you will pay more the longer you wait. Not alot more quickly but more than you could have paid. You will face tougher competition and the quality of the inventory isnt as good. Anything good (like Winans Cove) got 10+ offers in a weekend and went all cash, above ask with no contingencies. You cant compete with that.

Good luck…..

BTW, a house selling within $5K of asking is basically at asking and the difference is usually some kind of concession or agent rebate.[/quote]

I understand what you’re saying here, sdr. Winans Cove was in exceptionally good condition – turnkey, in fact, with a larger lot and quality landscaping. The tracts built in the early 90’s forward are a far cry from the older tracts.

I would agree that MM is in an enviable location for access to good jobs. HOWEVER,

I have nothing against MM but the avg ’70’s/’80’s MM tract home there is what it is. Most have few walls (or “pony walls”) separating the rooms. The difference in floor coverings in these models are the only thing indicating a “change in room,” LOL. The “open floor plan” was very popular in that era. Acoustical ceilings abound and some are vaulted (some of these with beams covered with accoustical “knockdown”), making the material even more difficult to remove properly. Scaffolding is often needed to remove it from the vaulted two-story models, both in MM and PQ. The walnut/wrought iron stair railings there are very dated looking. IIRC, several tracts there were built with faulty PBT plumbing and dozens of properties there have had slab leaks. This all costs major money to correct for the new “investor.” In addition, most of the streets there are extremely crowded with parked cars.

It all “looks” enticing on the surface but my advice would be “caveat emptor” when considering a “rental quality” property purchase in MM (either SFR or condo). Before placing an offer (as a buyer) the first thing I would do is call my insurance agent and have them thoroughly check out the address on their big “computer in the sky” named CLUE :=0

[bearishgurl]

[quote=squat250]Here’s a side note that seems grotesquely unfair. There’s something called moral fitness and character application u need to pass to get licensed to be an atty. in Ohio a student failed that test because his job plan didn’t involve making enough money to service his huge debt.

As if he had turned down the big bucks job for the low paying one!!!

link;

http://studentpwns.com/2011/01/20/too-much-debt-quit-your-job-or-you-cant-be-a-lawyer/

the debt loads are truly staggering. i know young people carrying in excess of a 200k in student loan debt. who may have a hard time finding a 50,000/yr job.

keep in mind that this debt is NONDISCHARGEABLE in bankruptcy. it is there forever, till you die.

any kid who applies to law school and pays sticker price (around 50,000/yr at many schools) and borrows to live is truly not thinking about the reality of it all.

on the other hand, i can remember borrowing a big chunk of change and being told i was an idiot.

it’s wrong to lend young people this much money,s since they are thinking, hell, they wouldn’t lend it to me if things generally don’t work out for people…

and I have nothing now anyway, so what the hell!

it truly creeps me out.

just checked; tuition at my school is 3x what it was when i started. golly.

but if you go to this inexpensive school

http://www.cslawschool.com/financial-information/tuition-comparison/

live at home, and work, you’d be outh there debt free easily…

that’s what I’d want my kids to do if they were so inclined…[/quote]

Good post, scaredy. I feel bad for these kids, also, but realize they put themselves there by borrowing for exorbitant tuition and sometimes borrowing enough for living expenses while a student. That is folly, IMHO, especially in this economy.

As a certified paralegal who charges “piecework” prices and flat fees for particular jobs, I KNOW I likely have a higher net income than some of these new attorneys simply working from my home in my shorts. (Yes, I DO dress to the go the office :))

The problem is that for this exorbitant tuition, they only teach “theory” in law schools. This does NOT prepare the graduate to work in any state. The reality is that each state has their own “Rules of Court.” In CA, each county within the state has its own “Local Rules” and each judge has it’s own “courtroom rules” and “trial rules.”

You can’t learn all this from law school or even paralegal school. The only way to learn it is by doing and being there … repeatedly. A paralegal who has been “in the trenches” for decades has FAR more “experience” than a recent law school graduate but is not “licensed” to practice law. Even though I can argue a motion with my hands cuffed behind my back, unless I am representing myself I will never get the opportunity. Almost every motion I have written has been won by an attorney who did not make any changes to it before it was filed. Back in “my day,” Cal Western SOL in SD charged less than $3K per semester (plus books). I did not have a bachelor’s degree so could not apply. My ship sailed decades ago and I accepted this long ago :=]

Intelligence, skill and expertise has almost nothing to do with “educational level” attained, IMO.

It is unequivocally NOT WORTH IT to attend law school at the current prices, IMHO. I’ve posted here before that most of the attorneys I’ve done work for are PAST retirement age. They still work because their services are in demand and their expertise is sorely needed in “Of Counsel” positions in firms. Most attorneys work until they are near death or have their “hands in the pot” one way or another. Unlike an “employee,” these attorneys are “business partners” and don’t typically get downsized or riffed or given a “golden handshake.” This phenomenon takes away thousands of openings for those new bar card recipients who can’t afford malpractice insurance premiums on their own whilst paying on their student loans at the same time. This is a travesty but it is what it is.

Young people should look very carefully at the majors most likely to pay off in monetary rewards before spending thousands (and years of their lives) on college and graduate school. If none of these fields seem interesting to them, they should get ONLY an associate degree at a low-cost CC (to satisfy their GE credits) and keep their options open for enrolling in a university in the future. During CC and after, they should try to get a job in one of these “hot” fields that seem “boring” to them … even part-time (example: accounting) to try it out and see if they like it before deciding not to major in it. Who knows? They might find it rewarding enough to work towards a bachelor degree in it!

[bearishgurl]

This just in on Yahoo headlines:

Social Security – The Cheapest Annuity in Town

…The reason that Social Security annuities are a better deal than those in the private market is that Social Security can offer a product that is actuarially fair – they are based on the life expectancy of the average person (not those people whose parents lived into their 90s) and Social Security doesn’t have to worry about marketing costs or profits. Moreover, in this period of very low rates, Social Security is an especially good deal because the increase in benefits is not based on current rates but rather is a basic feature of the system. So buying an annuity from Social Security, especially in today’s low interest rate environment, is the best deal in town…

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/social-security–the-cheapest-annuity-in-town.html

[bearishgurl]

[quote=flyer]Standard of living in retirement also has a lot to do with calculating how much one will need. We have a high standard of living, but with our home in RSF paid off, all medical paid, free travel, and other benefits we’ve accrued, we’ll actually be able to maintain our chosen standard of living at a very low cost, and we won’t be touching our retirement funds until we’re in our 60’s.

Everyone has a different concept of how they want to live in retirement. When someone says they can easily live on a certain dollar amount in retirement that’s great, as long as they are living the way they really want to live. To me, living your dreams is what retirement is really all about.[/quote]

This is why I’m thinking of getting a couple of rentals for income … to enable me to have that monthly “cushion” in retirement to hit the road when I want to … and not worry so much about the cost of gas, lodging etc.

You are most fortunate, flyer. The vast majority of retirees aren’t able to fly *free* (space-A) or for a nominal cost.

Military retirees are eligible for Tricare which has a very low deductible or monthly premium and a low-cost “Tricare for Life” Medicare supplement. They can also fly “Space A” on (mostly) military aircraft for a nominal cost. But the lengthy procedure to reach the top of the “manifest list” to actually be able to fly and the conditions they might find on the aircraft itself and also the ride, lol, are no comparison to the comfort of a commercial airline. “Break out the earplugs and lower your jumpseat. Your `box lunch’ (sandwich, apple, chips, peanut butter cookies) will be served in 20 minutes.” The young “stewards” are cute in their tight, camo, belted one-piece uniforms, tho :=)

[bearishgurl]

[quote=AN][quote=bearishgurl][quote=AN]I’m confused, why buy an annuity when you can ladder CD? I used that calculator, assuming $5M nest egg growing at 2% and a withdrawal rate of $100k/year. You should be good indefinitely. But with the annuity, you’ll be depleted after 198 years. Why not ladder CD, get 2% return, live off that 2% indefinitely?[/quote]

LOL, AN! How long is “indefinitely??” ;=P[/quote]
Is there another definition of indefinitely?[/quote]

Well, I think it depends on if you plan on living “indefinitely” … or not.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=flu]Did the fuzz still get to keep their pensions while in jail?[/quote]

Yes, if they are already retired when arrest and later convicted, their pensions will continue to be deposited in their bank accts (for their families/spouse to live on) while they serve their time (if any).

If they were still active workers who were convicted of felonies (whether on or off duty) and thus terminated or removed for “cause,” then whether or not they would be eligible to collect it would be determined by the outcome of their respective civil service hearings.

In any case, the portions they contributed to their retirements over the years would be theirs, regardless, as well as any monies deposited into their 457 plans (if they had any).

[bearishgurl]

[quote=AN]I’m confused, why buy an annuity when you can ladder CD? I used that calculator, assuming $5M nest egg growing at 2% and a withdrawal rate of $100k/year. You should be good indefinitely. But with the annuity, you’ll be depleted after 198 years. Why not ladder CD, get 2% return, live off that 2% indefinitely?[/quote]

LOL, AN! How long is “indefinitely??” ;=P

[bearishgurl]

[quote=flyer]As an early airline pilot “retiree” who is still working as an aviation consultant, I agree with just about everything that has been mentioned here. There are as many variations on this theme as there are people.

I believe you really have to plan for the worst and hope for the best, so we’ve put our eggs in quite a few baskets. We are in our 50’s, and are still working at things we enjoy, we have lots of investment properties, investments, and are maxed out all savings opportunities, etc., etc.

I’ve watched friends with all of the best laid retirement plans made throughout their lifetimes lose it all in one way or another. So, if one is lucky enough to make it to retirement–whenever that may be for them–and lucky enough to have the health and means to enjoy it when they get there, they should consider themselves very fortunate.[/quote]

Agree, flyer. I’m probably older than you, but close to “retirement” (whatever that means, lol).

I’m one of those you are referring to here who had it all and thought they planned well and when they were younger and never in a million years thought they would end up where they are today. You are correct in that there are several insidious ways one can lose wealth over their lifetimes (even if one is not a gambler and always had good credit). Only by the “patience of Job” and immense resourcefulness have I been able to get to where I am today. The way I see it, it’s all downhill from here … at least for me, that is… :=)

[bearishgurl]

[quote=no_such_reality]BG, be vary cautious of homes that have sat with the utilities turned off for extended periods…It’s good rule of thumb, never by a rental you would be unwilling to live in or in an area you wouldn’t want to live in.[/quote]

Understand this, NSR. This is even more sage advice for colder climates. These problems are fixable in SD, IMHO. The buyer can always have utilities turned on before removing contingencies to test.

Some of you Piggs need to “get out” more. Not everyone walks their dogs in a “planned community” with developer-manufactured trails, parks and playgrounds.

Folks, it’s really okay to walk on a city street, even alone. There are VERY FEW areas in this county I wouldn’t walk at night and even some of those I would be okay walking in with a partner.

Note that I’m still alive to discuss it with you all :=]

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