[afx114]

I agree with most of your post aldante (liberal bashing aside). My rants were directed more towards the type of people who think like the subject of this thread.

Sure, government can take away your right to life by imprisoning or killing you. But if you want to use that argument you have to accept the flipside that government can also help protect your right to life (via the same means they can use to take it away — security, military, police, etc). I may have an inalienable right to property and life, but unless the police are there to prevent some thug from stealing my shit and shanking me in my front yard, those inalienable rights seem pretty useless to me. I suppose I could defend myself (via my inalienable right to own firearms), but what if said thug is actually a foreign army? Does not government play a role here in protecting my inalienable rights? Theoretically, shouldn’t that be the entire purpose of government? Does believing so make me a “todays” liberal?

I fail to see how God would be able to protect my inalienable rights. Perhaps by striking down an invading army with lightning, or perhaps turning water into wine? That would be sweeet! It is my inalienable right to get a buzz on as I see fit.

I would hope that our rights come from logic and reason (which I would also hope, as our founding fathers did, would eventually lead to a perfect form of government protecting said rights). I do not believe that our rights come from some magical bearded dude in the clouds (unless it’s The Dude). These are my beliefs in theory, of course, and I agree that in practice, reality doesn’t quite live up to the expectations. But what can you do? *shrug*

And no, we do not live in a theocracy. But the person about which this thread was started would very much like to see it become one.

[afx114]

I agree with most of your post aldante (liberal bashing aside). My rants were directed more towards the type of people who think like the subject of this thread.

Sure, government can take away your right to life by imprisoning or killing you. But if you want to use that argument you have to accept the flipside that government can also help protect your right to life (via the same means they can use to take it away — security, military, police, etc). I may have an inalienable right to property and life, but unless the police are there to prevent some thug from stealing my shit and shanking me in my front yard, those inalienable rights seem pretty useless to me. I suppose I could defend myself (via my inalienable right to own firearms), but what if said thug is actually a foreign army? Does not government play a role here in protecting my inalienable rights? Theoretically, shouldn’t that be the entire purpose of government? Does believing so make me a “todays” liberal?

I fail to see how God would be able to protect my inalienable rights. Perhaps by striking down an invading army with lightning, or perhaps turning water into wine? That would be sweeet! It is my inalienable right to get a buzz on as I see fit.

I would hope that our rights come from logic and reason (which I would also hope, as our founding fathers did, would eventually lead to a perfect form of government protecting said rights). I do not believe that our rights come from some magical bearded dude in the clouds (unless it’s The Dude). These are my beliefs in theory, of course, and I agree that in practice, reality doesn’t quite live up to the expectations. But what can you do? *shrug*

And no, we do not live in a theocracy. But the person about which this thread was started would very much like to see it become one.

[afx114]

I agree with most of your post aldante (liberal bashing aside). My rants were directed more towards the type of people who think like the subject of this thread.

Sure, government can take away your right to life by imprisoning or killing you. But if you want to use that argument you have to accept the flipside that government can also help protect your right to life (via the same means they can use to take it away — security, military, police, etc). I may have an inalienable right to property and life, but unless the police are there to prevent some thug from stealing my shit and shanking me in my front yard, those inalienable rights seem pretty useless to me. I suppose I could defend myself (via my inalienable right to own firearms), but what if said thug is actually a foreign army? Does not government play a role here in protecting my inalienable rights? Theoretically, shouldn’t that be the entire purpose of government? Does believing so make me a “todays” liberal?

I fail to see how God would be able to protect my inalienable rights. Perhaps by striking down an invading army with lightning, or perhaps turning water into wine? That would be sweeet! It is my inalienable right to get a buzz on as I see fit.

I would hope that our rights come from logic and reason (which I would also hope, as our founding fathers did, would eventually lead to a perfect form of government protecting said rights). I do not believe that our rights come from some magical bearded dude in the clouds (unless it’s The Dude). These are my beliefs in theory, of course, and I agree that in practice, reality doesn’t quite live up to the expectations. But what can you do? *shrug*

And no, we do not live in a theocracy. But the person about which this thread was started would very much like to see it become one.

[afx114]

Can you explain which Judeo-Christian beliefs our laws are based on? I figured that would be the next logical argument. Many people (not you specifically aldante, but many people taking your position) often state that our laws our based on the 10 commandments. I call bullshit on that. Bad Astronomy has an amazing post obliterating that argument. I’ll summarize here, but please read the full article for your separation of church and state enjoyment.

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
The Constitution is clear that you can have as many gods as you want, or no gods at all.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
We have no laws against art. Good thing too, otherwise the South Park wouldn’t be able to make fun of Jesus.

Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain
Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech. The Constitution is explicitly against this commandment. If you can say God hates fags, I can say that God is a cock-guzzling cuntface. That’s how it works.

Remember the sabbath day
We do actually have laws on this commandment.. you can’t buy liquor on Sundays in some states. But in most states you can, and no one is given a ticket for working on the holy day.

Honour thy father and thy mother
Perhaps up until 18 a child should do this, but you can’t throw a child in jail for disobeying this commandment. Maybe timeout in the corner, but we have no state-sanctioned punishment for children disobeying their parents. And once they’re 18, fuggetaboutit.

Thou shalt not kill.
Well, I have to give them this one. But all civilized societies, Christian or not, have laws for this. It’s also perfectly legal to kill under some circumstances (defense, field of war, etc), but I don’t see those allowances in the commandment.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.
There are a few laws with respect to this, but we all know that adultery and divorce are commonplace — and perfectly legal — in America.

Thou shalt not steal.
The commandments score another one here! No argument from me, stealing is clearly illegal. But again, stealing is also illegal in many non-Christian societies, so we can’t assume that our laws were derived directly from this commandment.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
The law calls this perjury, and you can get in a lot of legal trouble for doing so. This commandment scores a point.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
Wanting things is not against the law in America.

There you have it. Bad Astronomy gives the commandments a score of 3.5 out of 10 with respect to our legal system being based on them. It’s hilarious to me that the religious right fights all the time to have the 10 commandments placed at courthouse steps when not even 4 of the 10 commandments are used for our laws. So tell me again which of the Judeo-Christian values our nation was founded upon?

[afx114]

Can you explain which Judeo-Christian beliefs our laws are based on? I figured that would be the next logical argument. Many people (not you specifically aldante, but many people taking your position) often state that our laws our based on the 10 commandments. I call bullshit on that. Bad Astronomy has an amazing post obliterating that argument. I’ll summarize here, but please read the full article for your separation of church and state enjoyment.

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
The Constitution is clear that you can have as many gods as you want, or no gods at all.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
We have no laws against art. Good thing too, otherwise the South Park wouldn’t be able to make fun of Jesus.

Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain
Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech. The Constitution is explicitly against this commandment. If you can say God hates fags, I can say that God is a cock-guzzling cuntface. That’s how it works.

Remember the sabbath day
We do actually have laws on this commandment.. you can’t buy liquor on Sundays in some states. But in most states you can, and no one is given a ticket for working on the holy day.

Honour thy father and thy mother
Perhaps up until 18 a child should do this, but you can’t throw a child in jail for disobeying this commandment. Maybe timeout in the corner, but we have no state-sanctioned punishment for children disobeying their parents. And once they’re 18, fuggetaboutit.

Thou shalt not kill.
Well, I have to give them this one. But all civilized societies, Christian or not, have laws for this. It’s also perfectly legal to kill under some circumstances (defense, field of war, etc), but I don’t see those allowances in the commandment.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.
There are a few laws with respect to this, but we all know that adultery and divorce are commonplace — and perfectly legal — in America.

Thou shalt not steal.
The commandments score another one here! No argument from me, stealing is clearly illegal. But again, stealing is also illegal in many non-Christian societies, so we can’t assume that our laws were derived directly from this commandment.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
The law calls this perjury, and you can get in a lot of legal trouble for doing so. This commandment scores a point.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
Wanting things is not against the law in America.

There you have it. Bad Astronomy gives the commandments a score of 3.5 out of 10 with respect to our legal system being based on them. It’s hilarious to me that the religious right fights all the time to have the 10 commandments placed at courthouse steps when not even 4 of the 10 commandments are used for our laws. So tell me again which of the Judeo-Christian values our nation was founded upon?

[afx114]

Can you explain which Judeo-Christian beliefs our laws are based on? I figured that would be the next logical argument. Many people (not you specifically aldante, but many people taking your position) often state that our laws our based on the 10 commandments. I call bullshit on that. Bad Astronomy has an amazing post obliterating that argument. I’ll summarize here, but please read the full article for your separation of church and state enjoyment.

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
The Constitution is clear that you can have as many gods as you want, or no gods at all.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
We have no laws against art. Good thing too, otherwise the South Park wouldn’t be able to make fun of Jesus.

Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain
Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech. The Constitution is explicitly against this commandment. If you can say God hates fags, I can say that God is a cock-guzzling cuntface. That’s how it works.

Remember the sabbath day
We do actually have laws on this commandment.. you can’t buy liquor on Sundays in some states. But in most states you can, and no one is given a ticket for working on the holy day.

Honour thy father and thy mother
Perhaps up until 18 a child should do this, but you can’t throw a child in jail for disobeying this commandment. Maybe timeout in the corner, but we have no state-sanctioned punishment for children disobeying their parents. And once they’re 18, fuggetaboutit.

Thou shalt not kill.
Well, I have to give them this one. But all civilized societies, Christian or not, have laws for this. It’s also perfectly legal to kill under some circumstances (defense, field of war, etc), but I don’t see those allowances in the commandment.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.
There are a few laws with respect to this, but we all know that adultery and divorce are commonplace — and perfectly legal — in America.

Thou shalt not steal.
The commandments score another one here! No argument from me, stealing is clearly illegal. But again, stealing is also illegal in many non-Christian societies, so we can’t assume that our laws were derived directly from this commandment.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
The law calls this perjury, and you can get in a lot of legal trouble for doing so. This commandment scores a point.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
Wanting things is not against the law in America.

There you have it. Bad Astronomy gives the commandments a score of 3.5 out of 10 with respect to our legal system being based on them. It’s hilarious to me that the religious right fights all the time to have the 10 commandments placed at courthouse steps when not even 4 of the 10 commandments are used for our laws. So tell me again which of the Judeo-Christian values our nation was founded upon?

[afx114]

Can you explain which Judeo-Christian beliefs our laws are based on? I figured that would be the next logical argument. Many people (not you specifically aldante, but many people taking your position) often state that our laws our based on the 10 commandments. I call bullshit on that. Bad Astronomy has an amazing post obliterating that argument. I’ll summarize here, but please read the full article for your separation of church and state enjoyment.

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
The Constitution is clear that you can have as many gods as you want, or no gods at all.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
We have no laws against art. Good thing too, otherwise the South Park wouldn’t be able to make fun of Jesus.

Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain
Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech. The Constitution is explicitly against this commandment. If you can say God hates fags, I can say that God is a cock-guzzling cuntface. That’s how it works.

Remember the sabbath day
We do actually have laws on this commandment.. you can’t buy liquor on Sundays in some states. But in most states you can, and no one is given a ticket for working on the holy day.

Honour thy father and thy mother
Perhaps up until 18 a child should do this, but you can’t throw a child in jail for disobeying this commandment. Maybe timeout in the corner, but we have no state-sanctioned punishment for children disobeying their parents. And once they’re 18, fuggetaboutit.

Thou shalt not kill.
Well, I have to give them this one. But all civilized societies, Christian or not, have laws for this. It’s also perfectly legal to kill under some circumstances (defense, field of war, etc), but I don’t see those allowances in the commandment.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.
There are a few laws with respect to this, but we all know that adultery and divorce are commonplace — and perfectly legal — in America.

Thou shalt not steal.
The commandments score another one here! No argument from me, stealing is clearly illegal. But again, stealing is also illegal in many non-Christian societies, so we can’t assume that our laws were derived directly from this commandment.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
The law calls this perjury, and you can get in a lot of legal trouble for doing so. This commandment scores a point.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
Wanting things is not against the law in America.

There you have it. Bad Astronomy gives the commandments a score of 3.5 out of 10 with respect to our legal system being based on them. It’s hilarious to me that the religious right fights all the time to have the 10 commandments placed at courthouse steps when not even 4 of the 10 commandments are used for our laws. So tell me again which of the Judeo-Christian values our nation was founded upon?

[afx114]

Can you explain which Judeo-Christian beliefs our laws are based on? I figured that would be the next logical argument. Many people (not you specifically aldante, but many people taking your position) often state that our laws our based on the 10 commandments. I call bullshit on that. Bad Astronomy has an amazing post obliterating that argument. I’ll summarize here, but please read the full article for your separation of church and state enjoyment.

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
The Constitution is clear that you can have as many gods as you want, or no gods at all.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
We have no laws against art. Good thing too, otherwise the South Park wouldn’t be able to make fun of Jesus.

Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain
Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech. The Constitution is explicitly against this commandment. If you can say God hates fags, I can say that God is a cock-guzzling cuntface. That’s how it works.

Remember the sabbath day
We do actually have laws on this commandment.. you can’t buy liquor on Sundays in some states. But in most states you can, and no one is given a ticket for working on the holy day.

Honour thy father and thy mother
Perhaps up until 18 a child should do this, but you can’t throw a child in jail for disobeying this commandment. Maybe timeout in the corner, but we have no state-sanctioned punishment for children disobeying their parents. And once they’re 18, fuggetaboutit.

Thou shalt not kill.
Well, I have to give them this one. But all civilized societies, Christian or not, have laws for this. It’s also perfectly legal to kill under some circumstances (defense, field of war, etc), but I don’t see those allowances in the commandment.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.
There are a few laws with respect to this, but we all know that adultery and divorce are commonplace — and perfectly legal — in America.

Thou shalt not steal.
The commandments score another one here! No argument from me, stealing is clearly illegal. But again, stealing is also illegal in many non-Christian societies, so we can’t assume that our laws were derived directly from this commandment.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
The law calls this perjury, and you can get in a lot of legal trouble for doing so. This commandment scores a point.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
Wanting things is not against the law in America.

There you have it. Bad Astronomy gives the commandments a score of 3.5 out of 10 with respect to our legal system being based on them. It’s hilarious to me that the religious right fights all the time to have the 10 commandments placed at courthouse steps when not even 4 of the 10 commandments are used for our laws. So tell me again which of the Judeo-Christian values our nation was founded upon?

[afx114]

I feel as if I owe it to people throughout history who thought and fought and died for our right to vote, in addition to the people in this world who still don’t have the luxury.

Even though the system may be schmacwhackled and the results might not always be there, it’s a lot better than a lot of people throughout history and in this current world can say they’ve ever had. I’d feel like an asshole if I didn’t participate.

[afx114]

I feel as if I owe it to people throughout history who thought and fought and died for our right to vote, in addition to the people in this world who still don’t have the luxury.

Even though the system may be schmacwhackled and the results might not always be there, it’s a lot better than a lot of people throughout history and in this current world can say they’ve ever had. I’d feel like an asshole if I didn’t participate.

[afx114]

I feel as if I owe it to people throughout history who thought and fought and died for our right to vote, in addition to the people in this world who still don’t have the luxury.

Even though the system may be schmacwhackled and the results might not always be there, it’s a lot better than a lot of people throughout history and in this current world can say they’ve ever had. I’d feel like an asshole if I didn’t participate.

[afx114]

I feel as if I owe it to people throughout history who thought and fought and died for our right to vote, in addition to the people in this world who still don’t have the luxury.

Even though the system may be schmacwhackled and the results might not always be there, it’s a lot better than a lot of people throughout history and in this current world can say they’ve ever had. I’d feel like an asshole if I didn’t participate.

[afx114]

I feel as if I owe it to people throughout history who thought and fought and died for our right to vote, in addition to the people in this world who still don’t have the luxury.

Even though the system may be schmacwhackled and the results might not always be there, it’s a lot better than a lot of people throughout history and in this current world can say they’ve ever had. I’d feel like an asshole if I didn’t participate.

[afx114]

Lets be honest, the Tea Party fully supports separation of church and state — assuming said church is Muslim, Jewish, basically anything that is not Christian. They’re actually against separation of their church and state. If they were intellectually honest about their church and state arguments they’d be perfectly fine with a Muslim president. I always thought we were asking the wrong question about whether or not Obama is a Muslim. Who cares if he is?

No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.
– US Constitution Article VI, paragraph 3

So this is really nothing about the separation of some philosophical “church” and state at all. It’s about making Christianity the official religion of the state, which in my opinion flies in the face of the first amendment.

I’d give my left, and probably my right nut to have a fully open atheist president. We’ve had plenty of atheist presidents, they just were unable to “come out” — that would be political suicide. At least JFK had the balls to come out and be honest about his religion.

We already have a definition for government without separation of church and state — theocracy. Why don’t you ask Iran and the Taliban how that’s working out for them?

[afx114]

Lets be honest, the Tea Party fully supports separation of church and state — assuming said church is Muslim, Jewish, basically anything that is not Christian. They’re actually against separation of their church and state. If they were intellectually honest about their church and state arguments they’d be perfectly fine with a Muslim president. I always thought we were asking the wrong question about whether or not Obama is a Muslim. Who cares if he is?

No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.
– US Constitution Article VI, paragraph 3

So this is really nothing about the separation of some philosophical “church” and state at all. It’s about making Christianity the official religion of the state, which in my opinion flies in the face of the first amendment.

I’d give my left, and probably my right nut to have a fully open atheist president. We’ve had plenty of atheist presidents, they just were unable to “come out” — that would be political suicide. At least JFK had the balls to come out and be honest about his religion.

We already have a definition for government without separation of church and state — theocracy. Why don’t you ask Iran and the Taliban how that’s working out for them?

[Author]

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