They will never be fogotten

[Arraya]

Well, I always here a recurring theme about “lessons” from 9/11.

What I learned is the humans are inherently compassionate and that compassion transcends boarders, ideologies, ethnicities and religions. And that is a beautiful thing.

However, I also learned those higher emotions can be hijacked by less than noble forces, for less than noble reasons and perverted to a more primitive base emotion.

This semi-religious observance is irrevocably poisoned because of that. And we know that in our hearts.

[scaredyclassic]

I used to know a cop, former dea agent, paralyzed in a very brave drug raid. I’m sure there are thousands of extremely brave and heroic cops and civilians who gave their lives or like my acquaintance something less in the war on drugs.

But if we had a celebration of all the individual stories of heroism and sacrifice in the war on drugs, it would be to most depressing wouldn’t it? And the reason why is because for many the war on drugs is a pointless failure that has eroded civil liberties, targeted minorities, and generally moved society in the wrong direction.

It would be extremely difficult to separate the powerful stories of individual heroic sacrifices in ghe war on drugs from the actual war in drugs. That’s how I see 9-11; the individual stories are part of a larger narrative and it’s difficult to celebrate individuals without thinking of the bigger picture.

Perhaps that’s not manly.

And if my kid gave his life protecting some fellow cops by taking a bullet from a drug dealer? I’d say it wasn’t worth it.

Analyzing the specific heroic acts on the day of 9-11 in a vacuum is in some ways like analyzing the acts of cops and civilians acting heroically in the war on drugs.

I just can’t see it.

[scaredyclassic]

I mean, heck forget the war on drugs—there are probably thousands of heroic acts every year on misc subjects. Why not have a celebration and celebrate all the individual heroes?

Then it really wouldn’t be about race war politics or economics.

But this ain’t that.

[scaredyclassic]

Has there ever been a tv production about heroes of the Vietnam war? How would people feel about acts of extreme sacrifice and bravery just as the war was ending? Would you want your kid sticking his neck out to kill a few more Viet Cong as the war is winding down in its final hours or would that seem illadvised or perhpas insane even if the individual act were extremely selfless and heroic?

Is heroism and self sacrifice really something to be celebrated in a vacuum?

Not saying much heroism and sacrifice isn’t worth it. just worth thiking about what we put it all on the line for.

[sdrealtor]

I’ve got real mixed feelings on this. In SD we are in a small corner of the world and even the country. If the world had a capital city it would unquestionably be NYC. As for the hero’s, many if not most of these were not soldiers or public servants but rather ordinary people standing up to help others at their own peril which is a very different thing.

In the mid 1980’s, I worked on the 97th floor of the North Tower everyday for a year. Many of you have no idea how big these buildings were and how many people were involved. Each building was home to over 30,000 workers each day. Combined these buildings disappearing off the face of the Earth is not that different than Temecula suddenly vanishing. But it’s not just the buildings. Beneath them was an entire world of workers in a city below the ground. Restarants, stores and a transportation hub for the PATH trains that brought workers into downtown NYC/Wall Street from NJ. I used to take that train everyday. Coming up from the station was a line of HUGE escalators, there had to be 20 of them and they were as long as any I have every seen. For 2 solid hours each day and evening they were jammed packed with a sea of humanity. There had to be close to a million people passing through that station each day. When I see others minimizing what all went down I suspect they have no idea of the actual scale of what happened. It is beyond comprehension to me and I was there hundreds of times. Then there was everything else that went on around it and the clouds of dust enveloping the area for days. If you havent been to this place you must go and see if for yourself. Just like you must go see the Grand Canyon. Neither can be appreciated in pictures or video.

On the other hand I don’t like the commercialization of the great tragedy that this was. Watching football with 12 year old son yesterday we spent a lot of time talking about it. Every once in a while there would be a great, solemn video come on about the tragedy that would move us. Each time it ended with either a Verizon, State Farm or other logo. My son would turn to me each time and say “Dad why did they have to kill that great moment?”

[Scarlett]

sdr, I totally agree that until you’ve seen and experienced what WTC was, you can’t fathom how many lives it affected. I didn’t work there, but I lived in Manhattan for 7 years before 2001 and visisted WTC a few times – which is a total different thing than working there, I admit. And to me too it’s still incomprehensible. Your analogy with Grand Canyon is good, but not close enough – Grand Canyon is something relatively static, WTC had a life, a pulse of its own, like a small town if you want.

I agree that TV commercials spoil those moments, but that would have been done with any story, regardless of how tragic, exciting, or great. That’s the TV’s way of being. I didn’t feel that this event was particurlaly commercialized or politicized. Could have been treated with more respect by the media, and not pepper it with commercials,probably.

[quote=sdrealtor]I’ve got real mixed feelings on this. (…)As for the heroes, many if not most of these were not soldiers or public servants but rather ordinary people standing up to help others at their own peril which is a very different thing.

In the mid 1980’s, I worked on the 97th floor of the North Tower everyday for a year. Many of you have no idea how big these buildings were and how many people were involved. Each building was home to over 30,000 workers each day. Combined these buildings disappearing off the face of the Earth is not that different than Temecula suddenly vanishing. But it’s not just the buildings. Beneath them was an entire world of workers in a city below the ground. Restarants, stores and a transportation hub for the PATH trains that brought workers into downtown NYC/Wall Street from NJ. I used to take that train everyday. Coming up from the station was a line of HUGE escalators, there had to be 20 of them and they were as long as any I have every seen. For 2 solid hours each day and evening they were jammed packed with a sea of humanity. There had to be close to a million people passing through that station each day. When I see others minimizing what all went down I suspect they have no idea of the actual scale of what happened. It is beyond comprehension to me and I was there hundreds of times. Then there was everything else that went on around it and the clouds of dust enveloping the area for days. If you havent been to this place you must go and see if for yourself. Just like you must go see the Grand Canyon. Neither can be appreciated in pictures or video.

On the other hand I don’t like the commercialization of the great tragedy that this was. Watching football with 12 year old son yesterday we spent a lot of time talking about it. Every once in a while there would be a great, solemn video come on about the tragedy that would move us. Each time it ended with either a Verizon, State Farm or other logo. My son would turn to me each time and say “Dad why did they have to kill that great moment?”[/quote]

[briansd1]

[quote=walterwhite]There is value to forgetting and letting go. No one under age 65 gets worked up over pearl harbor, do they. Like, never forget, watch the sneaky japs, that kind of thing?

Never forget kind of implies an eternal grudge.[/quote]

The comparaison to Pearl Harbor can put 9/11 into context.

Pearl Harbor got us into WWII. We fought for 3 years and we moved on. The country became dynamic and prosperous after WWII.

A fitting monument was built to remember Pearl Harbor. To this day, people still visit the monument. I’ve been there myself.

In comparaison, 9/11 has defined America to the core. We have become neurotic about terrorism. And all goverment actions are about covering your asses so that another terrorist attack won’t happen, else you will lose elections or your party will lose. Terrorism has been the political weapon of choice to beat on your opponent.

Forget about government leadership on education, commercial competitiveness… and the things that make our lives better.

10 years later, we are still boggged down and fighting two wars with no end of sight, and fighting over the building of mosques, in Manhattan and Temecula. We are losing technological and commercial competitiveness.

The 9/11 memorial is a monstruosity. Imagine living and working in a war memorial every day. That can’t be very uplifting for New Yorkers. How can you look to the future when the past looms so large?

We should have built 3 skyscrappers on the site and a small fountain and basement museum to commemorate the event. That would have been enough.

Save for a few, the people who died are not heroes. They were just there at the wrong place, at the wrong time.

[sdrealtor]

Pearl Harbor was a raid that took down a ship on a island in the middle of the South Pacific. 9/11 paralyzed the greatest city in the world for months. It took down hundred’s of thousands of jobs. It involved civilians not soldiers. Sorry Brian but as much as I agree with you on alot of things you just dont get this one. Pearl Harbor has miniscule compared to what happened in NYC 10 years ago.

Have you spent much time in NYC? It is not about being uplifting. The city is full of memorials. Every where you go there are memorials. It is about the history of the greatest city in the greatest country of the world not about uplifting your world with art.

As for terrorism, I dont see it being the political weapon you are making it out to be. Right now its about the economy in this country and not much else.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=briansd1] . . . In comparaison, 9/11 has defined America to the core. We have become neurotic about terrorism. And all goverment actions are about covering your asses so that another terrorist attack won’t happen, else you will lose elections or your party will lose. Terrorism has been the political weapon of choice to beat on your opponent.

Forget about government leadership on education, commercial competitiveness… and the things that make our lives better.

10 years later, we are still boggged down and fighting two wars with no end of sight, and fighting over the building of mosques, in Manhattan and Temecula. We are losing technological and commercial competitiveness… [/quote]

I don’t like how the events of 9/11 have taken our liberties away and increased the “hassle-factor” in traveling. I don’t like taking off my shoes and then arguing with a TSA employee about how much is left in that (expensive) tube or container of whatever (is it over 3 oz??) and being brought over into “secondary” TSA just to stand spread-eagled and get “wanded” by a second TSA officer and/or exchange the baggie I brought to declare personal items for one with a zip closure, slightly smaller, etc. By the time one gets thru all of this nonsense and then endures an hour-plus layover, they could have been wa-a-a-a-ay down the road in their own vehicle!

That is, if they’re not stopped by US customs officers on an east-west bound US interstate hwy demanding to search inside their vehicle, trunk and/or trailer, have a dog sniff all their wheel wells and have their Driver’s license inspected when it is clear to the authorities that the vehicle did NOT cross the border and has a license plate number which has NOT been reported stolen.

These are terrible inconveniences to a law-abiding American citizen, an invasion of privacy and probably unconstitutional … but what can we do about it??

I’m all for universal driver’s licenses/ID’s which applicants must go thru an extensive vetting process, much like applying for a passport and do not have to to be renewed until reaching the age of 75, barring any revocations or medical reasons preventing driving. Then, persons who possess these types of licenses should be let go and not hassled, either by TSA, US Customs officials of the Border Patrol.

[sdrealtor]

I thought you drove everywhere and never flew anywhere. At least thats what you have been repeatedly telling us for longer than any of us can remember.

[Anonymous]

[quote=temeculaguy]I can’t explain heroism to those who lack that element in their character.[/quote]

TG,

You may want to find a way to rephrase that. It’s the most arrogant thing I’ve heard in a long time.

I’ve always found it curious that society automatically considers someone who gives their life in some dramatic moment to be a “hero.”

If a father of three young children sacrifices his life in an attempt to save a complete stranger, is that truly noble? Has he made the world a better place?

The world is full of people who who make great sacrifices for others without getting themselves killed or taking extraordinary physical risks.

Heroism is not about testosterone.

Self-sacrifice takes many forms. I think that giving one’s life in some dramatic moment of “heroism” is perhaps the least important type of sacrifice there is.

[scaredyclassic]

However it is kinda cool. And then you get to be dead, which is relaxing.

The man who is courting tells his woman, ” I would gladly lay down my life for you.”

after 20 years of marriage, he would not even lay down his newspaper for her.”

old quote….

[njtosd]

[quote=bearishgurl]

These are terrible inconveniences to a law-abiding American citizen, an invasion of privacy and probably unconstitutional … but what can we do about it??

I’m all for universal driver’s licenses/ID’s which applicants must go thru an extensive vetting process, much like applying for a passport and do not have to to be renewed until reaching the age of 75, barring any revocations or medical reasons preventing driving. Then, persons who possess these types of licenses should be let go and not hassled, either by TSA, US Customs officials of the Border Patrol.[/quote]

On what basis do you claim that the procedures to which you refer are unconstitutional? Unreasonable search? What would be your definition of reasonable?

And in terms of the ID – such a card would be the ideal tool for a terrorist to use to get through customs . . . You do realize that such things could probably be forged pretty easily, right?

[njtosd]

[quote=walterwhite]However it is kinda cool. And then you get to be dead, which is relaxing.

The man who is courting tells his woman, ” I would gladly lay down my life for you.”

after 20 years of marriage, he would not even lay down his newspaper for her.”

old quote….[/quote]

Are you still married?

[briansd1]

[quote=sdrealtor] Pearl Harbor has miniscule compared to what happened in NYC 10 years ago.

Have you spent much time in NYC? [/quote]

I guess we see it differently, sdrealtor.

WWII buffs would probably not consider Pearl Harbor minuscule in relation to 9/11 for a multitude of reasons.

Pearl Harbor was an attack by an imperial power.

The question I have is how a ragtag band of terrorists caused us, the greatest superpower, so much loss. In 10 years we have expended so much treasure and lives to confront and defeat an elusive enemy. I wonder if we are really better off.

sdrealtor, I *heart* NYC. I have friends and relatives in NYC. I consider NYC the capital of the world because people from all over the globe come there. In other circumstances, I’d love to live in Manhattan.

NYC is still the greatest city but it’s not as great anymore in term of infrastructure. Other cities around the world are catching up.

Tourists will now come to NYC for the 9/11 memorial which is all about looking back and grieving. I’d rather they had built an equivalent to the Sydney Opera House or other iconic structure which would have redefined NYC as a forward looking, dynamic, world-class city that attracts the brightest in the world.

[Author]

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