ot. the other perspective

[FlyerInHi]

Flu, TPP is dead so China has been strengthened. Maybe that’s why some people in China like Trump.
There won’t be new competition for China in trade with the US. And countries in Asia will have to work more closely with China, the elephant in the region

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2016/11/10/the-trans-pacific-partnership-is-dead-schumer-tells-labor-leaders/

[utcsox]

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-trump-students-targeted-20161110-story.html

Apparently, handed out “deportation letters” to Latino classmate was just being funny.

[millennial]

[quote=harvey]You can speculate for as many paragraphs as you like.

The only way that jobs are going to come back to the industrial midwest are through some combination of:

1) Dramatically lower wages
2) Trade barriers
3) Elimination of environmental protection

#1 accomplishes nothing

#2 hurts more than it helps

#3 sounds tolerable until you’ve lived it first-hand, and still requires 1 and 2 to be effective[/quote]

I don’t think industrial jobs will ever come back to the Midwest because of mechanization and outsourcing. Also if it does, it will never be like the 70’s and early 80’s where factory workers were getting paid 6 figures due to the unions and non-competitive foreign products. Despite this, cities like Detroit are now growing again and property values are growing as well. My sister just purchased a refurbished loft style condominium in a high rise for over $250k. Rent comps within the building are running between 2500-3000 a month and the available units get picked up quick. Companies such as Quicken have come in and incentivized workers by paying for their rent, or covering some of the down payment to do so. Anyways, just wanted to say that the those industrial cities are starting to right size and fill up again with professionals.

[millennial]

[quote=utcsox]http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-trump-students-targeted-20161110-story.html

Apparently, handed out “deportation letters” to Latino classmate was just being funny.[/quote]

This type of stuff is what I’m worried about. We now have elected a president who has been vocal about being against Mexicans, Muslims, disrespects women, and who has been endorsed by the KKK. As a society, we are basically saying that his actions are not only tolerable and acceptable, but encouraged. What a mess.

[njtosd]

[quote=zk][quote=njtosd] I don’t remember Supreme Court justices threatening to move to New Zealand, or people “protesting” (aka whining) in the streets over the presidential outcome in ’08 or ’12. I think it’s a matter of bruised ego for a lot of the intellectual types.[/quote]

I agree that protesting is ridiculous.

But to say that a “bruised ego” is the reason for it is more ridiculous. Bruised ego isn’t the problem. This is the problem:

[quote=zk]
In addition to the xenophobia and the misogyny, there are all these shocking and disgusting things:
His wanting nuclear weapons to proliferate.
His insistence that the military will follow illegal orders if he gives them.
His threats not to honor our NATO obligations.
His profound ignorance of foreign affairs (“Putin won’t go into Ukraine,” didn’t know what the nuclear triad is).
His desire to commit war crimes (killing terrorists’ families).
His threats not to pay our debts in full.
His birtherism.
. . . .

[/quote][/quote]

I don’t think I made myself as clear as I thought – both you and millennial have interpreted my description of “intellectual types” as meaning that they are actually intellectuals. I meant it in a somewhat pejorative sense. But before I say anything – I ended up not voting for Trump or Clinton.

There are very few Americans who voted for Clinton who are familiar with all of the issues that you raise. There are many, many who voted for Clinton because they believe that people who backed Clinton were smarter, cooler and simply better than those who voted for Trump – without reference to issues. To be fair, the Democratic party promoted that position with its party line, celebrities and references to deplorables. (I have many family members who fall into that category – maybe that explains my annoyance. ) Those are the ones that I refer to as “intellectual types”. They feel like they got beaten by their inferiors – that is the bruised ego to which I refer. ( I feel a similar fraction voted for Trump for equally uninformed reasons – the make America great again sort of superficial national pride and abortion gibberish. But that’s not the topic we’re addressing right now.)

My husband is a car guy. To analogize – a lot of people buy expensive cars because they appreciate the engineering – but many more buy them because of ego driven issues. I admire people who have well informed viewpoints – really regardless of the viewpoint. But a lot of this argument is about ego – and I think most elections are driven by emotions not logic.

[millennial]

[quote=AN]
Also keep in not everyone vote for him because of the wall. I think many vote for him base on pocket book issue. Why else would 29% of latino would vote for him?[/quote]

Well I can’t speak for the 29% of latino voters, but I think that the majority of the votes were made of anger and hate. A lot of it came from poor whites in rural areas, the rustbelt, and the Appalachian states. These are the ones working in coal mines, truck stops, and farms who have been poor for generations. These are the people who watch TV and hear about how “black lives matter” and thinking the rest of America forgot about them. Yes, we can easily say pull up your bootstraps but understandably they kind of have a reason to be angry and want change. Unfortunately I don’t think they realize that Trump doesn’t care about them and the change that he wants will not make their lives any better.

[The-Shoveler]

IMO the people who voted for Trump in middle America did so out of frustration and desperation.

It’s all the good jobs have gone and I am stuck here with only minimum (or minimal) wage Jobs and all this Clinton person is telling me is that the Jobs aren’t coming back because robots are taking them anyway.

Sorry you don’t win elections that way.

Trump had a better story for them.

All the other stuff is just noise.

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=millennial]
I don’t think industrial jobs will ever come back to the Midwest because of mechanization and outsourcing. Also if it does, it will never be like the 70’s and early 80’s where factory workers were getting paid 6 figures due to the unions and non-competitive foreign products.
[/quote]
That’s so true. That’s why we need to focus on new jobs, not bring back old jobs.

[quote=millennial]
Despite this, cities like Detroit are now growing again and property values are growing as well. My sister just purchased a refurbished loft style condominium in a high rise for over $250k. Rent comps within the building are running between 2500-3000 a month and the available units get picked up quick. Companies such as Quicken have come in and incentivized workers by paying for their rent, or covering some of the down payment to do so. Anyways, just wanted to say that the those industrial cities are starting to right size and fill up again with professionals.[/quote]

So true again. Those old cities have great architecture and the city cores are doing well. the old urban sprawl… not so much.

Pittsburg is the same with Carnegie Mellon as a draw. Even Harrisburg, PA, the state capitol is reviving with new condos. A friend was trying to get to me to bid on a building at a ridiculous price, but it’s too far for me to handle. A beautiful stone building like in NY or Chicago! Great opportunity for real estate, but too cold for my blood.

[The-Shoveler]

[quote=FlyerInHi][quote=millennial]
I don’t think industrial jobs will ever come back to the Midwest because of mechanization and outsourcing. Also if it does, it will never be like the 70’s and early 80’s where factory workers were getting paid 6 figures due to the unions and non-competitive foreign products.
[/quote]
That’s so true. That’s why we need to focus on new jobs, not bring back old jobs.

[quote=millennial]
Despite this, cities like Detroit are now growing again and property values are growing as well. My sister just purchased a refurbished loft style condominium in a high rise for over $250k. Rent comps within the building are running between 2500-3000 a month and the available units get picked up quick. Companies such as Quicken have come in and incentivized workers by paying for their rent, or covering some of the down payment to do so. Anyways, just wanted to say that the those industrial cities are starting to right size and fill up again with professionals.[/quote]

So true again. Those old cities have great architecture and the city cores are doing well. the old urban sprawl… not so much.

Pittsburg is the same with Carnegie Mellon as a draw. Even Harrisburg, PA, the state capitol is reviving with new condos. A friend was trying to get to me to bid on a building at a ridiculous price, but it’s too far for me to handle. A beautiful stone building like in NY or Chicago! Great opportunity for real estate, but too cold for my blood.[/quote]

These Jobs are only a very small personage in these areas, most Jobs are very minimal in these cities.

[Anonymous]

[quote=njtosd]There are very few Americans who voted for Clinton who are familiar with all of the issues that you raise. There are many, many who voted for Clinton because they believe that people who backed Clinton were smarter, cooler and simply better than those who voted for Trump – without reference to issues. To be fair, the Democratic party promoted that position with its party line, celebrities and references to deplorables. (I have many family members who fall into that category – maybe that explains my annoyance. ) Those are the ones that I refer to as “intellectual types”. They feel like they got beaten by their inferiors – that is the bruised ego to which I refer. ( I feel a similar fraction voted for Trump for equally uninformed reasons – the make America great again sort of superficial national pride and abortion gibberish. But that’s not the topic we’re addressing right now.)[/quote]

You mean making generalizations about vaguely-defined groups is not a good thing?

[Coronita]

https://www.google.com/amp/www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/public-safety/sd-me-sdsu-robbery-20161110-story,amp.html?client=ms-android-google

If you aren’t white, stay safe out there.

Also to remind people the rules about carrying a knife in CA. State law prohibits carrying a concealed knife.

However a knife carried in a sheath worn outside is considered open carry, and there is no limit on the blade length.

That is assuming you don’t have a license to carry a concealed weapon.

As a reminder…

http://www.tulare-kings-attorney.com/blog/2012/december/knife-carry-laws-in-california/

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=millennial][quote=AN]
Also keep in not everyone vote for him because of the wall. I think many vote for him base on pocket book issue. Why else would 29% of latino would vote for him?[/quote]

Well I can’t speak for the 29% of latino voters, but I think that the majority of the votes were made of anger and hate. A lot of it came from poor whites in rural areas, the rustbelt, and the Appalachian states. These are the ones working in coal mines, truck stops, and farms who have been poor for generations. These are the people who watch TV and hear about how “black lives matter” and thinking the rest of America forgot about them. Yes, we can easily say pull up your bootstraps but understandably they kind of have a reason to be angry and want change. Unfortunately I don’t think they realize that Trump doesn’t care about them and the change that he wants will not make their lives any better.[/quote]

Millenial, I talked about this very issue with a friend earlier today. She thought I was mean.

But those Trump supporters voted against their own interests… They are already upset and cannot be won back. So why bother understanding them? Let those ingrate SOBs eat the Republican platitudes and pull themselves up by the bootstraps.

We discuss Black Lives Matter and those emotionally needy people feel ignored? WTF? Issues are not mutually exclusive.

As someone who cares about social equity, I’d rather put my energy in people who appreciate and will vote for my party.

[utcsox]

[quote=flu]https://www.google.com/amp/www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/public-safety/sd-me-sdsu-robbery-20161110-story,amp.html?client=ms-android-google

If you aren’t white, stay safe out there.

Also to remind people the rules about carrying a knife in CA. State law prohibits carrying a concealed knife.

However a knife carried in a sheath worn outside is considered open carry, and there is no limit on the blade length.

That is assuming you don’t have a license to carry a concealed weapon.

As a reminder…

http://www.tulare-kings-attorney.com/blog/2012/december/knife-carry-laws-in-california/%5B/quote%5D

Nah, take a deep breath and don’t let the media get you all worked up. You shall trust the system and the decency of everyday American people.

[njtosd]

[quote=millennial] Despite this, cities like Detroit are now growing again and property values are growing as well. My sister just purchased a refurbished loft style condominium in a high rise for over $250k. Rent comps within the building are running between 2500-3000 a month and the available units get picked up quick. Companies such as Quicken have come in and incentivized workers by paying for their rent, or covering some of the down payment to do so. Anyways, just wanted to say that the those industrial cities are starting to right size and fill up again with professionals.[/quote]

Hmm. The house that I grew up in in the Detroit NW suburbs is now worth (adjusted for inflation) 73% of what it was worth in 1964. I’m not saying that things haven’t improved over the last few years (in fact, in 2009 it was worth about 50% of its 1964 value). But Detroit is a long way (sadly) from pulling itself out of its slide. My guess is your sister is not downtown (or maybe she is?) – last I heard there wasn’t a single chain grocery store within the city limits: http://money.cnn.com/2009/07/22/smallbusiness/detroit_grocery_stores.smb/

Detroit flourished due to the automotive industry. Initially Detroit was nothing – they almost made Calumet the capital, as that was where the big industry, mining, was when Michigan was made a state. The weather sucks – we used to celebrate the one or two sunny weekends in the summer. There is not a lot to pull people in, except cheap rent – especially for those who are looking for art studio space. And the crime rate is legendary – it is currently the 28th most dangerous city in the world by some estimates: http://www.worldatlas.com/articles/most-dangerous-cities-in-the-world.html

People have been trying to re-envision Detroit since the 70s PR campaign “Say Nice Things About Detroit” – but wishing and hoping doesn’t make it so. I wish things were different, but it has a long way to go.

[Anonymous]

Detroit, the city, is a hopeless wasteland.

Some of the suburban areas like Rochester Hills are quite nice.

Much of the rust belt follows the same pattern – white flight and all that. Detroit seems to represent the extreme of this phenomenon.

LOL, Trump is going to singlehandedly fix this:
http://www.marchandmeffre.com/detroit

Cue the Eminem music…

[Author]

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