OT: I hate big governments, government overeaching it’s sticky hands

[equalizer]

[quote=temeculaguy]Flu, you need to be a little more skeptical. First, the link you provided goes to some world press blog and I didn’t see an author’s name. I did a little search and read a few versions of the article but it’s all pretty much the same, it’s from the lawyer of the father and a serbian consulate advocate. So you are hearing one side of the story and making assumptions, which is exactly what the lawyer wants you to do. I’m not saying the lawyer is lying or wrong but break down his press release. The lawyer said that cps produced a videotape of the five year claiming the father innapropriately touched her, the lawyer said the contact was routine “such as drying off the child with a towel.” He also said the questions were ambiguous. Look at the accusation he chose to give you and the media, a harmless act that all parents do. But he doesn’t tell you what the other allegations were yet he throws out an attack of the ambiguous nature of the questions (“such as” means that is but one example). He’s prepping the defense for what those other allegations are. The authorities can’t tell the media anything, they are prohibited. I’m sure there is more to the story. This is a spin tactic to get the agency to give up, to try the case in the court of public opinion where only one side gets to talk. Maybe they are right, but don’t be so quick to judge because you and I only know hat the defense wants us to know. Maybe the questions weren’t ambiguous, why doesn’t the lawyer tell us the questions? Lawyers aren;t evil, they have a job to do. They don’t usually lie, but they do omit things that are damaging to their client, especially in the media.

Why not wait to hear both sides of the story before deciding? More often than not, cps would love to show you everything but they are prohibited from doing so.

Imagine you have a friend that is going through a divorce, or got arrested, or lost a bet, or lost an argument. Now imagine he tells you his side of the story, but you cant ask questions and you cant talk to the other party. You will probably certainly side with him, just from what he tells you, he certainly got screwed somehow. But we dont live like this, we ask our friend questions, sometimes we know the other person and we almost certainly dont see it how he wants us to see it once we delve a little deeper into it. The truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. What you have just done is taken everything your friend said as fact and made a decision on how the world operates. Take a step back, doubt both sides and always doubt the side that is talking.

Believe none of what you read and only half of what you see.[/quote]
Yes, TG be very skeptical. Just as an investment banker will make massive bets to get a bigger commission, everyone in the justice system is faced with reward system that does not always align with social good. Every single day in this country a prosecutor may withhold evidence from courts to bolster their conviction rate and run for higher office. What is the chance of getting caught – practically nil. [Defense lawyers do not have same responsibilty to society so never trust them] If you examine the death penalty appeals conducted by Northwestern Law students there were several cases of prima facia prosecutorial misconduct that went unpunished. The “system was so deeply flawed” that the the former Gov commuted all the death penalty cases to life in prison.

The McMartin preschool case from mid 80’s was another travesty that was Akiki story on steroids. With absolutely no physical evidence -“After six years of criminal trials, no convictions were obtained, and all charges were dropped in 1990. When the trial ended in 1990 it had been the longest and most expensive criminal trial in American history $15M”.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/psychology/mcmartin_daycare/9.html

[equalizer]

[quote=SK in CV]A question for you flu.

Based on this sketchy evidence, I have no idea if the father actually committed any crime. Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t, but from what’s been presented, it certainly doesn’t appear to be sufficient to remove the kids from the home. But my question is this….what if the evidence was all but uncontrovertable. Actual photos of dad molesting the kids? Would that have been sufficient for you to believe the kids should be removed from the home?

The reason I ask, is that it seems to me that often when people assail big government, the actual complaint is about bad government. Maybe power hungry social workers. Maybe someone honestly believing, without good evidence that a crime has been committed. Smaller wouldn’t necessarily be any better. Fewer social workers on the street would just as likely to have dangerous egos. Or be so overworked that they just make mistakes. Should CPS not have the power to do what they do? Or should they just be better at it?

(And as an aside, if this government employee really is a social worker, she’s making much more than minimum wage. Social workers are trained medical professionals, and are reasonably well paid, although last I saw the pay scales, those working in the public sector are paid below those in the private sector.)[/quote]
People who enter social work are predisposed to believe everyone is guilty. Judges in the family courts also believe that everyone is a molester by default. They did not got to medical school, therefore they are NOT medical professionals with requisite ethical standards, just overzealous bureaucrats. I used to believe that governement agencies were full of nice, ethical people and then one day I turned 20 and grew up.

[equalizer]

[quote=SK in CV]A question for you flu.

Based on this sketchy evidence, I have no idea if the father actually committed any crime. Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t, but from what’s been presented, it certainly doesn’t appear to be sufficient to remove the kids from the home. But my question is this….what if the evidence was all but uncontrovertable. Actual photos of dad molesting the kids? Would that have been sufficient for you to believe the kids should be removed from the home?

The reason I ask, is that it seems to me that often when people assail big government, the actual complaint is about bad government. Maybe power hungry social workers. Maybe someone honestly believing, without good evidence that a crime has been committed. Smaller wouldn’t necessarily be any better. Fewer social workers on the street would just as likely to have dangerous egos. Or be so overworked that they just make mistakes. Should CPS not have the power to do what they do? Or should they just be better at it?

(And as an aside, if this government employee really is a social worker, she’s making much more than minimum wage. Social workers are trained medical professionals, and are reasonably well paid, although last I saw the pay scales, those working in the public sector are paid below those in the private sector.)[/quote]
People who enter social work are predisposed to believe everyone is guilty. Judges in the family courts also believe that everyone is a molester by default. They did not got to medical school, therefore they are NOT medical professionals with requisite ethical standards, just overzealous bureaucrats. I used to believe that governement agencies were full of nice, ethical people and then one day I turned 20 and grew up.

[equalizer]

[quote=SK in CV]A question for you flu.

Based on this sketchy evidence, I have no idea if the father actually committed any crime. Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t, but from what’s been presented, it certainly doesn’t appear to be sufficient to remove the kids from the home. But my question is this….what if the evidence was all but uncontrovertable. Actual photos of dad molesting the kids? Would that have been sufficient for you to believe the kids should be removed from the home?

The reason I ask, is that it seems to me that often when people assail big government, the actual complaint is about bad government. Maybe power hungry social workers. Maybe someone honestly believing, without good evidence that a crime has been committed. Smaller wouldn’t necessarily be any better. Fewer social workers on the street would just as likely to have dangerous egos. Or be so overworked that they just make mistakes. Should CPS not have the power to do what they do? Or should they just be better at it?

(And as an aside, if this government employee really is a social worker, she’s making much more than minimum wage. Social workers are trained medical professionals, and are reasonably well paid, although last I saw the pay scales, those working in the public sector are paid below those in the private sector.)[/quote]
People who enter social work are predisposed to believe everyone is guilty. Judges in the family courts also believe that everyone is a molester by default. They did not got to medical school, therefore they are NOT medical professionals with requisite ethical standards, just overzealous bureaucrats. I used to believe that governement agencies were full of nice, ethical people and then one day I turned 20 and grew up.

[equalizer]

[quote=SK in CV]A question for you flu.

Based on this sketchy evidence, I have no idea if the father actually committed any crime. Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t, but from what’s been presented, it certainly doesn’t appear to be sufficient to remove the kids from the home. But my question is this….what if the evidence was all but uncontrovertable. Actual photos of dad molesting the kids? Would that have been sufficient for you to believe the kids should be removed from the home?

The reason I ask, is that it seems to me that often when people assail big government, the actual complaint is about bad government. Maybe power hungry social workers. Maybe someone honestly believing, without good evidence that a crime has been committed. Smaller wouldn’t necessarily be any better. Fewer social workers on the street would just as likely to have dangerous egos. Or be so overworked that they just make mistakes. Should CPS not have the power to do what they do? Or should they just be better at it?

(And as an aside, if this government employee really is a social worker, she’s making much more than minimum wage. Social workers are trained medical professionals, and are reasonably well paid, although last I saw the pay scales, those working in the public sector are paid below those in the private sector.)[/quote]
People who enter social work are predisposed to believe everyone is guilty. Judges in the family courts also believe that everyone is a molester by default. They did not got to medical school, therefore they are NOT medical professionals with requisite ethical standards, just overzealous bureaucrats. I used to believe that governement agencies were full of nice, ethical people and then one day I turned 20 and grew up.

[equalizer]

[quote=SK in CV]A question for you flu.

Based on this sketchy evidence, I have no idea if the father actually committed any crime. Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t, but from what’s been presented, it certainly doesn’t appear to be sufficient to remove the kids from the home. But my question is this….what if the evidence was all but uncontrovertable. Actual photos of dad molesting the kids? Would that have been sufficient for you to believe the kids should be removed from the home?

The reason I ask, is that it seems to me that often when people assail big government, the actual complaint is about bad government. Maybe power hungry social workers. Maybe someone honestly believing, without good evidence that a crime has been committed. Smaller wouldn’t necessarily be any better. Fewer social workers on the street would just as likely to have dangerous egos. Or be so overworked that they just make mistakes. Should CPS not have the power to do what they do? Or should they just be better at it?

(And as an aside, if this government employee really is a social worker, she’s making much more than minimum wage. Social workers are trained medical professionals, and are reasonably well paid, although last I saw the pay scales, those working in the public sector are paid below those in the private sector.)[/quote]
People who enter social work are predisposed to believe everyone is guilty. Judges in the family courts also believe that everyone is a molester by default. They did not got to medical school, therefore they are NOT medical professionals with requisite ethical standards, just overzealous bureaucrats. I used to believe that governement agencies were full of nice, ethical people and then one day I turned 20 and grew up.

[an]

[quote=briansd1]
My point is that we ought to have a sense proportion if we are to hate the government.

There will always be collateral damage in what government or businesses do.

We should focus on the biggest injustices perpetrated by the government. Like innocent people being wrongly convicted and put to death. And like innocent people getting killed.[/quote]
Death is quick and relatively painless. At least it’s much less pain than going through the rest of your life destroyed emotionally and psychologically.

[an]

[quote=briansd1]
My point is that we ought to have a sense proportion if we are to hate the government.

There will always be collateral damage in what government or businesses do.

We should focus on the biggest injustices perpetrated by the government. Like innocent people being wrongly convicted and put to death. And like innocent people getting killed.[/quote]
Death is quick and relatively painless. At least it’s much less pain than going through the rest of your life destroyed emotionally and psychologically.

[an]

[quote=briansd1]
My point is that we ought to have a sense proportion if we are to hate the government.

There will always be collateral damage in what government or businesses do.

We should focus on the biggest injustices perpetrated by the government. Like innocent people being wrongly convicted and put to death. And like innocent people getting killed.[/quote]
Death is quick and relatively painless. At least it’s much less pain than going through the rest of your life destroyed emotionally and psychologically.

[an]

[quote=briansd1]
My point is that we ought to have a sense proportion if we are to hate the government.

There will always be collateral damage in what government or businesses do.

We should focus on the biggest injustices perpetrated by the government. Like innocent people being wrongly convicted and put to death. And like innocent people getting killed.[/quote]
Death is quick and relatively painless. At least it’s much less pain than going through the rest of your life destroyed emotionally and psychologically.

[an]

[quote=briansd1]
My point is that we ought to have a sense proportion if we are to hate the government.

There will always be collateral damage in what government or businesses do.

We should focus on the biggest injustices perpetrated by the government. Like innocent people being wrongly convicted and put to death. And like innocent people getting killed.[/quote]
Death is quick and relatively painless. At least it’s much less pain than going through the rest of your life destroyed emotionally and psychologically.

[equalizer]

[quote=flu]Shit like this gives me the creepies and makes me be extra careful when I have to give my kid a bath… I worry that one day in public school, they’re bring in a “social worker” who will ask kids questions taken out of context…And without knowing the kids to blurt out something like “my XYZ parent touched me when giving a bath”…..

….It’s just getting ridiculous. I mean, what the hell do social workers expect parents to do these day, just take out a garden hose and hose your kid down?????

And we need a bigger government and more oversight???????? I really hate our big governments. With a passion….One big frickin nanny nation.

Oh, and welcome to Walmart…..

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Weekend/parents-sue-wal-mart-children-bath-time-photos/story?id=8622696

Couple Sues Walmart for Calling Cops Over Bath Time Photos
Children Were Taken Into Protective Custody Over Pictures Taken at Bath Time[/quote]
It’s too bad that you give a hoot. I’m so fat and lazy that the only thing I care about is why Da Bears were not on cable. I will march to DC (only if it’s not snowing) and start a million march to make sure I can watch Da Bears.

It would be nice if someone contacted the Governor’s office and warn of possible State Dept repercussions if this drags on. It would be a terrible tragedy if the foreign Govt initiated UN human rights proceedings against CPS and hired Allan to rescue the kids and deliver them to the sanctuary of the consulate.

Go Bears.

[equalizer]

[quote=flu]Shit like this gives me the creepies and makes me be extra careful when I have to give my kid a bath… I worry that one day in public school, they’re bring in a “social worker” who will ask kids questions taken out of context…And without knowing the kids to blurt out something like “my XYZ parent touched me when giving a bath”…..

….It’s just getting ridiculous. I mean, what the hell do social workers expect parents to do these day, just take out a garden hose and hose your kid down?????

And we need a bigger government and more oversight???????? I really hate our big governments. With a passion….One big frickin nanny nation.

Oh, and welcome to Walmart…..

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Weekend/parents-sue-wal-mart-children-bath-time-photos/story?id=8622696

Couple Sues Walmart for Calling Cops Over Bath Time Photos
Children Were Taken Into Protective Custody Over Pictures Taken at Bath Time[/quote]
It’s too bad that you give a hoot. I’m so fat and lazy that the only thing I care about is why Da Bears were not on cable. I will march to DC (only if it’s not snowing) and start a million march to make sure I can watch Da Bears.

It would be nice if someone contacted the Governor’s office and warn of possible State Dept repercussions if this drags on. It would be a terrible tragedy if the foreign Govt initiated UN human rights proceedings against CPS and hired Allan to rescue the kids and deliver them to the sanctuary of the consulate.

Go Bears.

[equalizer]

[quote=flu]Shit like this gives me the creepies and makes me be extra careful when I have to give my kid a bath… I worry that one day in public school, they’re bring in a “social worker” who will ask kids questions taken out of context…And without knowing the kids to blurt out something like “my XYZ parent touched me when giving a bath”…..

….It’s just getting ridiculous. I mean, what the hell do social workers expect parents to do these day, just take out a garden hose and hose your kid down?????

And we need a bigger government and more oversight???????? I really hate our big governments. With a passion….One big frickin nanny nation.

Oh, and welcome to Walmart…..

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Weekend/parents-sue-wal-mart-children-bath-time-photos/story?id=8622696

Couple Sues Walmart for Calling Cops Over Bath Time Photos
Children Were Taken Into Protective Custody Over Pictures Taken at Bath Time[/quote]
It’s too bad that you give a hoot. I’m so fat and lazy that the only thing I care about is why Da Bears were not on cable. I will march to DC (only if it’s not snowing) and start a million march to make sure I can watch Da Bears.

It would be nice if someone contacted the Governor’s office and warn of possible State Dept repercussions if this drags on. It would be a terrible tragedy if the foreign Govt initiated UN human rights proceedings against CPS and hired Allan to rescue the kids and deliver them to the sanctuary of the consulate.

Go Bears.

[equalizer]

[quote=flu]Shit like this gives me the creepies and makes me be extra careful when I have to give my kid a bath… I worry that one day in public school, they’re bring in a “social worker” who will ask kids questions taken out of context…And without knowing the kids to blurt out something like “my XYZ parent touched me when giving a bath”…..

….It’s just getting ridiculous. I mean, what the hell do social workers expect parents to do these day, just take out a garden hose and hose your kid down?????

And we need a bigger government and more oversight???????? I really hate our big governments. With a passion….One big frickin nanny nation.

Oh, and welcome to Walmart…..

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Weekend/parents-sue-wal-mart-children-bath-time-photos/story?id=8622696

Couple Sues Walmart for Calling Cops Over Bath Time Photos
Children Were Taken Into Protective Custody Over Pictures Taken at Bath Time[/quote]
It’s too bad that you give a hoot. I’m so fat and lazy that the only thing I care about is why Da Bears were not on cable. I will march to DC (only if it’s not snowing) and start a million march to make sure I can watch Da Bears.

It would be nice if someone contacted the Governor’s office and warn of possible State Dept repercussions if this drags on. It would be a terrible tragedy if the foreign Govt initiated UN human rights proceedings against CPS and hired Allan to rescue the kids and deliver them to the sanctuary of the consulate.

Go Bears.

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