OT: Battle Ground Zero: Murrieta: Invasion of America

[livinincali]

[quote=deadzone][quote=paramount]Fact:

In 2009 (based on data collected in 2010), ~60 percent of households headed by an immigrant (legal and illegal) with children (under 18) used at least one welfare program, compared to 39 percent for native households with children.[/quote]

This topic is about illegal immigrants, not immigrants in general so the uncited statistic you claim as fact is irrelevant.

Since you are such an expert, why don’t you give some examples of the entitlements that draw illegal immigrants to the U.S.?[/quote]

Medical services is probably the biggest one. You get treated even if you can’t pay here, over there you aren’t getting treated if you can’t pay.

[livinincali]

[quote=FlyerInHi][quote=livinincali] And the biggest issue I have with this situation is that right after the president decides to execute the DREAM act by executive order we got a huge influx of illegal immigrants. Whether the message got lost in translation or not, the Central American’s have certainly taken it as an open invitation to illegally immigrant to America.[/quote]

I doubt those women and kids have even heard of the dream act or understand the intricacies of American immigration laws.[/quote]

That may be true, but the smugglers are telling these parents that if they get their kid to America they aren’t going to be getting deported. Unfortunately that’s been true so they keep sending their kids up here.

[svelte]

[quote=paramount]Fact:

In 2009 (based on data collected in 2010), ~60 percent of households headed by an immigrant (legal and illegal) with children (under 18) used at least one welfare program, compared to 39 percent for native households with children.[/quote]

Can you give us a link to that study please?

I’ll wait.

[Hobie]

How come no one from Congress down to an investigative news reporter has determined the mechanism and logistics of convincing a parent to give up their kid?

Gotta be a huge coordinated effort before anyone is ever close to the boarder. This is the head of the snake. Same on this side of the border.

[UCGal]

I’m still trying to figure out why blocking the buses is going to be productive in deporting these undocumented children.

Obviously, for humanitarian reasons, you need to make sure there is an adult to RECEIVE the deported child on the other end – so it is not as easy as driving a mile into Mexico with a bus and dropping these unescorted kids off.

My understanding is that many of the illegal immigrants are from Guatamala – so they are arranging to deport them back to their home country, and arranging with agencies down there, to receive the minors that came across without parents.

In order to deport them, they have to go through the process, set by law, to have hearings (to confirm they are, in fact, here illegally and do not qualify for asylum.) Once the hearing determines they should be deported, they will be returned to their home country.

Blocking the buses just slows down the process and might even prevent the system from working. That’s why I keep wondering why the folks who want them deported are blocking the buses.

These are people who have been apprehended. They are in detention and custody of the ICE, and are in the process of being deported. Blocking the buses does exactly what? What purpose does it serve? Do they want ICE to stop detaining suspected undocumented people? Do they want ICE to stop the deportation process?

[Anonymous]

[quote=livinincali][quote=deadzone][quote=paramount]Fact:

In 2009 (based on data collected in 2010), ~60 percent of households headed by an immigrant (legal and illegal) with children (under 18) used at least one welfare program, compared to 39 percent for native households with children.[/quote]

This topic is about illegal immigrants, not immigrants in general so the uncited statistic you claim as fact is irrelevant.

Since you are such an expert, why don’t you give some examples of the entitlements that draw illegal immigrants to the U.S.?[/quote]

Medical services is probably the biggest one. You get treated even if you can’t pay here, over there you aren’t getting treated if you can’t pay.[/quote]

That’s not true. Mexico for example has government subsidized medical clinics to treat the poor. Contrary to urban legend, nobody is dying on the streets in Mexico because hospitals are denying them care.

That said, nobody is arguing that illegal immigrants aren’t receiving entitlements, we all know that they are. You are correct about medical care. The other obvious cases are use of our public schools and in the case where the illegal has children born in the U.S. they qualify for food stamps and other forms of welfare. HOWEVER, the point is, those benefits aren’t the main factor driving the immmigration. Now, the hope of future amnesty may be the carrot and the stick for some, but as CAR points out, most come here to work and send money back to their family.

[livinincali]

[quote=deadzone]
That said, nobody is arguing that illegal immigrants aren’t receiving entitlements, we all know that they are. You are correct about medical care. The other obvious cases are use of our public schools and in the case where the illegal has children born in the U.S. they qualify for food stamps and other forms of welfare. HOWEVER, the point is, those benefits aren’t the main factor driving the immmigration. Now, the hope of future amnesty may be the carrot and the stick for some, but as CAR points out, most come here to work and send money back to their family.[/quote]

I don’t disagree that their primary driver is to find better paying work. It pays a lot more to be a house cleaner, nanny, or construction worker here even after you factor in the higher cost of living. Low skilled labor gets paid more here and enjoys a better quality of life than most countries. Even things we take for granted like running water and electricity can be luxury items for people in these countries.

[Anonymous]

Correct, which is my point that in general if these illegals could not find a job in the U.S., they would return to their homes beacuse the miniumum entitlements they receive here are not worth it if they aren’t earning money to send home.

Now if amnesty actually happens, that would change the dynmamic entirely with enormous entitlement implications.

[mike92104]

Here’s my idea since the flow of illegals isn’t going to stop any time soon.

Based on the assumption that many of these folks are paying “coyotes” $8k-10k, I would say that f you show up on the southern border with $8k, and verifiable identification from Mexico or a country south of there, we’ll let you in. The $8k is yours to keep, but you’re required to have it before entering so we can be sure you’ll have enough cash on hand to get yourself settled. You’ll get a SSN, and we expect a tax return after 1 years showing you have gained employment.

At the same time, E-Verify should be mandatory, and employers caught using undocumented workers will have all of their assets seized. Also, if you are caught in U.S. illegally, you will be deported, and barred permanently.

If you’ve been successful in finding work in your first year, you can apply for citizenship.

Done

[CA renter]

[quote=Hobie]How come no one from Congress down to an investigative news reporter has determined the mechanism and logistics of convincing a parent to give up their kid?

Gotta be a huge coordinated effort before anyone is ever close to the boarder. This is the head of the snake. Same on this side of the border.[/quote]

Definitely agree with this.

[CA renter]

[quote=mike92104]Here’s my idea since the flow of illegals isn’t going to stop any time soon.

Based on the assumption that many of these folks are paying “coyotes” $8k-10k, I would say that f you show up on the southern border with $8k, and verifiable identification from Mexico or a country south of there, we’ll let you in. The $8k is yours to keep, but you’re required to have it before entering so we can be sure you’ll have enough cash on hand to get yourself settled. You’ll get a SSN, and we expect a tax return after 1 years showing you have gained employment.

At the same time, E-Verify should be mandatory, and employers caught using undocumented workers will have all of their assets seized. Also, if you are caught in U.S. illegally, you will be deported, and barred permanently.

If you’ve been successful in finding work in your first year, you can apply for citizenship.

Done[/quote]

$8,000 isn’t enough, and that just covers the cost of one child for one year of education. BTW, I believe that education is the highest-cost “entitlement” for illegal immigrants and their families. It’s probably the #2 reason (#1 for some families) for coming here illegally. Most immigrants who bring their families are looking to get their children into public schools so that they can be better educated and achieve the “American Dream.”

Ultimately, taxpayers are subsidizing the employers of illegal immigrants because these employers aren’t paying the full freight (not even close) of the labor they are luring here from abroad. We need to make E-Verify mandatory, and all immigrants brought/lured here to work should be given a benefit card for themselves and each dependent, paid for entirely by their employer, that would entitle them to all public benefits like education, healthcare, physical infrastructure, etc.

As of right now, schools (and, I believe hospitals?) are not allowed to ask people about their immigration status. This needs to change so that only citizens, legal immigrants, and illegal immigrants with a benefit card are eligible to attend these schools (or be admitted to hospitals, or we should bill their country for any medical costs incurred here). And we should not grant citizenship to people just because their pregnant mothers jumped the fence as they went into labor (this is actually what happens in many cases, ask the nurses who work in these hospitals).

[NotCranky]

The flow or lack of undocumented immigrants and privileges or lack of that are experienced by them are part and partial or social engineering. . The politicians have hot air to blow one way or the other but are not making policy too much. When the policy for coming across the border is actually net affirmative the crime would be committed by getting people worked up about how bad and illegal these people are , it should be a hate crime viewed in the proper light.

http://www.brookings.edu/research/opinions/1996/08/04immigration-skerry

[CA renter]

What, exactly, would be the hate crime? Not sure about the meaning of your last sentence.

[paramount]

Can a person fly internationally without an ID?

[barnaby33]

And before anyone stands on the “but they are illegal” dogma, well I would be more sympathetic to that argument if Boehner would let immigration reform come up for a vote. But by blocking reform, all goodwill I have for the “illegal” argument evaporates.

So you only respect laws that are up for change? Going all Hobby Lobby on us?

They are illegal. Being here without documents is breaking the law. A set of laws we’ve had for a long time, though sadly not well enforced.

The situation is Central America is as complex as here and the coyotes who sell passage are feeding off of a change in policy and the violence is driving more people to leave.

I’d be a lot more open to immigration “reform” ie letting in more people as long as the birth rates in all of our population donor countries were brought down to replacement rates.

We are a nation of former immigrants. However we’re over capacity and so is everyone else. How does admitting large groups of low skilled people because their countries are unstable make the world better? Why is it that because a century ago America was filled with immigrants this must always be so?
Josh

[Author]

Posts