Off Topic – Did this really happen?

[powayseller]

Warning – this could be upsetting to some people.

I’m tired of hearing all these conspiracy theories about 9/11. They make a lot of sense, but I don’t want to believe that our government would and could do such a horrible thing.

The conspiracy theorists say the ultimate purpose of 9/11 was to create a pre-text for the Afghanistan and Iraq war and to reduce our constitutional rights via the Patriot Act.

I am asking for anyone to debunk this story, by former SGT Lauro Chavez, United States Central Command, who gives several items of proof, per his own eye witness accounts, that the 9/11 attacks were ordered and executed by our government.

Please tell me if this guy is lying. Please only respond to this thread only if you have read Sgt Chavez’ letter, and debunk each of his points.

I’m also wondering about the small hole and lack of debris at the Pentagon, and the odd collapse of the 3 World Trade Center towers, which according to some physicists and structural engineers fell by planned demolition and could not possibly fall in that manner by a plane. World Trade Center 7 was not hit by a plane or any significant debris, but yet fell in 6.5 seconds, only .5 second faster than gravity. If the towers actually pancaked as the official story goes, they could not fall at the rapid pace of free-fall, giving zero resistance, which is impossible. The intense amount of debris and steel beams thrown indicate a lot of resistance, so we have 2 conflicts: a rapid fall showing no resistance and debris showing a lot of resistance. Only demolition can reconcile this fall.

” steel-framed skyscrapers have never collapsed from fire, since they’re built from steel that doesn’t melt below 2750 degrees Fahrenheit. No fuel, not even jet fuel, which is really just refined kerosene, will burn hotter than 1500 degrees Fahrenheit.

t’s also odd that WTC7, which wasn’t hit by an airplane or by any significant debris, collapsed in strikingly similar fashion to the Twin Towers. There wasn’t even any jet fuel or kerosene burning in WTC7.

According to the 9-11 report by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), “the specifics of the fires in WTC7 and how they caused the building to collapse remain unknown at this time.

This fact was known to firemen. Hence their unflinching rush up into the skyscrapers to put out the fire. Partly it was bravery, to be sure, but partly it was concrete knowledge that skyscrapers do not collapse due to fire. Yet after 100 years, three collapsed in one day.

A controlled demolition would have exploded debris horizontally at a rapid rate. A controlled demolition would also explain the fine, pulverized concrete powder, whereas pancaking floors would leave chunks of concrete. Controlled demolition would also explain the seismic evidence recorded nearby of two small earthquakes, each just before one of the Twin Towers collapsed. And finally, controlled demolition would explain why three steel skyscrapers, two of which were struck by planes and one of which wasn’t, all collapsed in essentially the same way.”

“How does a buildings concrete foundation get pulverized to dust by a plane that crashed into the upper portion of the building? Why did hundreds of firefighters come forward and say that they heard explosives going off in the twin towers before and after that planes hit?”

I hope these people are wrong, wrong, wrong, but their arguments are logical, and that’s why I am asking for the input/feedback of the very smart people on this forum. I have a curious logical mind, and I am very troubled by this matter.

[no_such_reality]

Sigh

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

[bgates]

Maybe this is the one guy who’s telling the truth.

Maybe the entire NORAD chain of command has been lying for five years. Maybe a team of demolitions experts planted explosives in three skyscrapers – entering the buildings at night, drilling holes in the walls, planting explosives, and replastering the walls, all without any night watchmen noticing them coming or going, for weeks – and all the demolitions guys have kept quiet too. Or maybe the night watchmen were in on the plan, and they all kept their mouths shut. Or maybe the demolitions work was carried out in broad daylight, and thousands of workers, dozens or hundreds of demolitions experts, the top ranks of the military, and the federal government all worked together to murder thousands of people to start a war, and the only person willing to reveal his knowledge is Sgt Lauro Sanchez.

Me, I think it was the ghosts of Indians pissed that the Dutch bought their island.

Prove it wasn’t.

[kewp]

I hate to comment on this, but I can’t let the ‘logic’ comment slide.

If we are looking at this ‘logically’…

Given that 9/11 is the *only* example of large jet planes hitting a modern skyscraper, how is it possible to make the claim its ‘not possible’ for them to fall in the manner described as a result? Who could even suggest that without a counter-example?

There were other accelerants present beside the jet fuel that increased the temperature of the fire to the temperatures required to melt steel. Numerous eye-witnesses and video evidence have confirmed that the temperature of the fire heated the steel supports white-hot.

If this *was* a controlled detonation, where is the evidence of the same? Why don’t we hear the explosions, or see visual evidence of them? Why did the portion of the building above the point of impact remain intact? Most importantly, why is there not any chemical residue left over in the debris?

Lastly, the reason the buildings collapsed the way they did is that they were designed to. All modern skyscrapers are. If they fell over like a tree it would piss off the neighbors!

Really, this is not the appropriate forum for this crap and posting it casts some serious doubt on your previous analysis. If this does indeed seem logical to you maybe the perma-bulls are right about SD RE!

[LookoutBelow]

I saw a poll in USAToday I believe a few months back that said over 50% of this country's population thinks the govt covered up some or all of it.

One will never know…..just like our previous knowledge of the Pearl Harbor attack at least 3 days prior to it happening. Unfortunately, that wasnt made public until a few short years ago……..I imagine 9-11 will have its own ghosts come out of some hidden closet 50-75 years from now too.

 

Did TWA 800 actually get shot down ? Everybody has an opinion. 

 

[LookoutBelow]

Powayseller, pay no attention to that nonsensical, unresearched crap KEWP just posted, he or she doesnt know what they're talking about. He doesnt know "shinola" about architecture and demolition. Probably some programmer sitting in his cubicle postulating on the web when he should be working for his boss.

I will agree it probably isnt the best forum for this discussion, it however, does NOT cast a shadow on your previous analysis. 

 

 

[4plexowner]

Each time I do research on 9/11 I come up with some new interesting information.

Here are some tidbits from my last research:

> asbestos had been used throughout the towers – EPA had issued several waivers allowing asbestos cleanup to be delayed but were increasing the pressure for the asbestos to be removed – estimates for cleanup were in the $1 billion range and none of the insurance companies covering the towers were willing to pay for the cleanup

> the towers were transferred from the New York Port Authority to private ownership (Larry Silversteen) six weeks prior to 9/11 – the towers had become a white elephant for the Port Authority – lots of vacancies and huge expense to provide utilities for the towers – even oxygen had to be provided because the towers were airtight – ie, Port Authority was losing lots of money on the towers and the losses were getting worse as vacancies increased

> Silversteen reworked the insurance policies for the WTC complex to explicitly provide coverage for acts of terrorism

> Silversteen obtained explicit rights to rebuild the WTC complex before completing the leases

> George Bush’s brother was president of the company that provided security for the WTC complex and Dulles airport where one of the aircraft was hijacked – his cousin was CEO of the same company

Other details I have come across in the past:

> there were bomb-sniffing dogs present in the towers 24/7 until two weeks prior to 9/11

> workers in the towers testify that there were unexplained power outages and building evacuations during the two weeks prior to 9/11

> workers in the towers testify that large sections of the towers (whole floors) were vacant and that construction noise could be heard on some of these floors in the weeks prior to 9/11

> legal files for prosecuting the Enron related trials were stored in WTC 7 along with many other files for sensitive SEC investigations

Perhaps my cynical nature and high level of skepticism make me susceptible to conspiracy theories but I believe the story our government is telling us about 9/11 is mostly fabrication.

There are many unexplained questions about how the two towers collapsed and the rarely mentioned collapse of WTC 7.

There are also many coincidental facts that support the idea that 9/11 was done for financial gain. Without considering whether it was a conspiracy or not, look at these aspects of 9/11: it destroyed two asbestos ridden buildings that were losing money because nobody wanted to rent space in them anymore – it destroyed legal files being used to prosecute Enron trials and other trials involving Wall Street bigshots – Silversteen gained several billion dollars in insurance payouts – Silversteen got the right to rebuild the WTC complex.

The biggest benefit from 9/11 went to the neo-cons who used it as a reason to launch the ‘forever war on terror’. They have continued to point to 9/11 as they have destroyed the US Constitution and Bill of Rights, dropped habeas corpus, passed Patriot Acts I & II, legalized the use of terror against anyone deemed an ‘unlawful combatant’ and taken many other actions which have reduced the freedom of us, the American citizens.

If you have a hard time believing that the government would do something like 9/11 to its own people, I suggest that you do some research on ‘false flag’ events – just Google on the term and check out some of the links. Watch for these in particular: Pearl Harbor, Gulf of Tonkin, USS Liberty.

[Anonymous]

Anyone who believes the official story is a blithering idiot.

There’s ample info on the internet … youtube and google for anyone who wants to find the truth. The official response from government NIST is bullshit. There have been several NIST engineers who came out publicly after being fired because they wouldn’t tow the “official” line.

WTC7 is the smoking gun. No plane hit it! Even the owner of WTC towers admitted that “they pulled it” … meaning it was brought down intentionally. The towers fell between 8:00 and 9:00 in the morning. “They pulled” WTC7 at 5:30 in the afternoon. So if “they” … the authorities decided after the attack that they had to demolish WTC7 for safety reasons, then they’d have about 9 hours to place explosives to “pull” the building. Nine hours (whilst in the middle of kaos) to do a job that normally takes weeks of preparation.

Come on people … get your heads outa your a____s.

[PerryChase]

Interesting topic. I haven’t read much about how the towers came down. I’ll check into the info you guys mentioned.

[Anonymous]

I advise anyone who is suspicious about 9/11 to watch this video. Its about an hour and 50 minutes, and time well spent.
Even if you are convinced that the ‘official’ 9/11 story
is correct, you should still watch this video.

9/11 Mysteries:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003&q=9%2F11&hl=en

[zk]

“Perhaps my cynical nature and high level of skepticism make me susceptible to conspiracy theories but I believe the story our government is telling us about 9/11 is mostly fabrication.”

If you are truly skeptical, you should be less susceptible to conspiracy theories, not more. For most of the conspiracy theories that are out there to be true, thousands of people would all have to keep giant secrets. Any amount of skepticism should keep you from believing that such a thing could happen.

“Anyone who believes the official story is a blithering idiot.”

Heavyduty follows that not-very-well-thought-out statement with equally well-thought-out arguments and documentation backing up his position.

People who believe conspiracy theories generally believe them for the same reason people believe that housing won’t go down: they want to believe them, and they therefore engage in confirmation bias. They’ll ignore overwhelming evidence that their theories are not true, and focus on the scant evidence that supports their case. Then they’ll ignore that evidence that refutes the scant evidence that supports their case.

Why would anyone want to believe these theories? Perhaps it makes them feel smart. “All these blithering idiots believe this story. I must be smarter than them.” Or maybe they like the adrenalin rush they get from their world view. “Holy shit!! WE knocked the towers down!!!” Maybe they’re super-left wing nuts who’d really like to discredit the neocons. Maybe they’re super-right wing nuts who want to discredit our entire government (our entire system of government.

“Powayseller, pay no attention to that nonsensical, unresearched crap KEWP just posted, he or she doesnt know what they’re talking about. He doesnt know “shinola” about architecture and demolition. Probably some programmer sitting in his cubicle postulating on the web when he should be working for his boss.”

Powayseller, pay no attention to LOB’s rhetoric. It contains no information or logic or reason or facts or evidence whatsoever. Sure, maybe 50% of the people in this country polled by USA Today do believe there was a conspiracy. But don’t forget that half the people in this country have IQs of less than 100, also (probably the same half that reads USA Today). None of that is any evidence of a conspiracy.

I despise the neocons much more than your average person. But to say that they planned and executed 9/11 and then covered it up gives them way too little credit for humanness and way too much credit for cleverness.

[zk]

From a pretty interesting Wikipedia article on conspiracy theories:

“Conspiratorial accounts can be emotionally satisfying when they place events in a readily-understandable, moral context. The subscriber to the theory is able to assign moral responsibility for an emotionally troubling event or situation to a clearly-conceived group of individuals. Crucially, that group does not include the believer. The believer may then feel excused of any moral or political responsibility for remedying whatever institutional or societal flaw might be the actual source of the dissonance.”

There’s more in the article on the psychological and socio-political origins of conspiracy theories. True believers might want to read that article see if they don’t see themselves there. If you can take a hard look at yourself, maybe you’ll see the world a little more clearly. If you can’t take a hard, honest look at yourself, you most likely never will.

[Anonymous]

The Empire State Building Plane Crash … July 28, 1945 … a B-25 Bomber Hits 78th Floor.

The building didn’t fall down.

There are many other modern buildings which have caught fire and burned for days. They didn’t fall down either.

Combined military services in this country employ over 1.25 million active military personnel. The CIA doesn’t release employment figures, but estimates are between 260,000 to 350,000 employees. How does the CIA keep 260,000 people quiet? It’s called Command and Control.

Standard procedure to diffuse any political movement which threatens the status quo … discredit the messanger. “He’s a conspiracy-nut”.

The families of 9-11 victims are outraged with the 9-11 Commisions findings, and are calling for a real investigation. Are they conspiracy nuts too?

Here’s my question … Why would any sane, rational, normal person not be interested in questioning the events of such a tragic national disaster, given it’s global consequences?

To the poster above … thanks for the psych-review. However, facts are facts. And I haven’t seen anything coming from the government to negate the facts that conspiracy-nuts are talking about. For god’s sake, they won’t even publish pictures from cameras around the pentagon showing us what actually crashed there.

[bgates]

Bomb-sniffing dogs were present until the day before the attack. I would think the presence of heightened security would make it more difficult to sabotage the buildings, yes?

I would imagine Silverstein wanted terrorism coverage and the right to rebuild the towers because they were a well-known landmark and, oh by the way, they had been attacked by terrorists in the past.

The towers were such a white elephant that Silverstein paid more than twice what had been estimated three years earlier. Silverstein was a successful enough man that he could come up with a hundred million dollar down payment and promise to pay three billion dollars over 99 years (and he wasn’t the only bidder on the project willing and able to do so – were they all in on the scheme?), all for what 4plexowner assures us was a money-loser. They must have started losing money in a hurry – they had over 90% occupancy as recently as mid-98. Was there a recession in Manhattan in the late 90’s that I didn’t hear about?

I’m sure there were lots of files in the towers. They were very large buildings. Despite whatever Enron-related losses occurred, last I heard several high-ranking Enron officials have been convicted.

A B-25 has a maximum takeoff weight of 41000 lbs, and top speed of 275 mph. A Boeing 767 is nine times as heavy and has a cruising speed of 540mph.

As for the neo-con reign of terror, I can’t help but notice no one on this thread has been locked up – but I blame that more on Reagan’s emptying the mental institutions in the early 80s. Pity. Just because someone calls you a conspiracy nut doesn’t mean you’re NOT crazy.

[kewp]

Actually, I think I’ve figured this out.

This was a massive *left-wing* conspiracy.

The Democrats were behind the 9/11 attacks, which they timed to coincide exactly with Dubya reading a children’s book about goats. Just to make him look extra-dumb.

This in turn was a setup to lead us into a futile war in Iraq, inciting unrest and returning control of both the senate and the house to the Dem’s. And ultimately, most likely, the White House. The end of the Bush dynasty will be an added bonus.

Makes sense to me!

[Author]

Posts