Mortgage Loan approval hell

[sdrealtor]

scarlet
Its not that they are more deserving, its that they have more income. That is what it is and should be all about for those guys. Its not just the level but the nature of it. Its recesssion proof (unless you are plastic surgeon) and it is not employment income. As a PHD you are someone’s employee and could be let go. Your income is not of the same nature as an MD’s. The point is not that these people are fabulous but rather different because of their incomes. My point is that when you all try to pigeonhole everyone and declare there should be no exceptions to 20% down you are not acknowledging that some people are different than you. I learned long ago that there are people who are smarter than me, better looking than me, have more money than mee, can do things I cant do and I’m OK with that. They desereve what they can get and I dont beleive I should try to limit them.

FWIW this particular friend is not, never was and never will be a client of mine.

[sdrealtor]

UC
There was no inconsistentancy in what I said. I said a great quality of life not a dream home. Someone with a $500K income should be able to borrow less than 1.5X their annual income on a 30 year loan. That doesnt buy one a dream home, it buys then a decent 2500 sq ft 4BR home home in gridlocked nirvana.

As for the student loans, well that is investing in ones future. While its great that you are so fabulous yourselves that your children wont need need them many people do. They arent evil or wrong, they level the playing field for many people who would not have access to upward mobility they are capable of great things. I beleive in investing in people like that. This is the greatest country in the world and we got that way by investing in ourselves. For many that requires taking on debt to reach one’s potential.

For the record I have as many or more regular folks as friends and clients as fabulous ones. I just know my share of fabulous ones and almost without exception they deserve to be where they are. They are the rockstars of the working world….winning!

[sdrealtor]

UC
There was no inconsistentancy in what I said. I said a great quality of life not a dream home. Someone with a $500K income should be able to borrow less than 1.5X their annual income on a 30 year loan. That doesnt buy one a dream home, it buys then a decent 2500 sq ft 4BR home home in gridlocked nirvana.

As for the student loans, well that is investing in ones future. While its great that you are so fabulous yourselves that your children wont need need them many people do. They arent evil or wrong, they level the playing field for many people who would not have access to upward mobility they are capable of great things. I beleive in investing in people like that. This is the greatest country in the world and we got that way by investing in ourselves. For many that requires taking on debt to reach one’s potential.

For the record I have as many or more regular folks as friends and clients as fabulous ones. I just know my share of fabulous ones and almost without exception they deserve to be where they are. They are the rockstars of the working world….winning!

[sdrealtor]

UC
There was no inconsistentancy in what I said. I said a great quality of life not a dream home. Someone with a $500K income should be able to borrow less than 1.5X their annual income on a 30 year loan. That doesnt buy one a dream home, it buys then a decent 2500 sq ft 4BR home home in gridlocked nirvana.

As for the student loans, well that is investing in ones future. While its great that you are so fabulous yourselves that your children wont need need them many people do. They arent evil or wrong, they level the playing field for many people who would not have access to upward mobility they are capable of great things. I beleive in investing in people like that. This is the greatest country in the world and we got that way by investing in ourselves. For many that requires taking on debt to reach one’s potential.

For the record I have as many or more regular folks as friends and clients as fabulous ones. I just know my share of fabulous ones and almost without exception they deserve to be where they are. They are the rockstars of the working world….winning!

[sdrealtor]

UC
There was no inconsistentancy in what I said. I said a great quality of life not a dream home. Someone with a $500K income should be able to borrow less than 1.5X their annual income on a 30 year loan. That doesnt buy one a dream home, it buys then a decent 2500 sq ft 4BR home home in gridlocked nirvana.

As for the student loans, well that is investing in ones future. While its great that you are so fabulous yourselves that your children wont need need them many people do. They arent evil or wrong, they level the playing field for many people who would not have access to upward mobility they are capable of great things. I beleive in investing in people like that. This is the greatest country in the world and we got that way by investing in ourselves. For many that requires taking on debt to reach one’s potential.

For the record I have as many or more regular folks as friends and clients as fabulous ones. I just know my share of fabulous ones and almost without exception they deserve to be where they are. They are the rockstars of the working world….winning!

[sdrealtor]

UC
There was no inconsistentancy in what I said. I said a great quality of life not a dream home. Someone with a $500K income should be able to borrow less than 1.5X their annual income on a 30 year loan. That doesnt buy one a dream home, it buys then a decent 2500 sq ft 4BR home home in gridlocked nirvana.

As for the student loans, well that is investing in ones future. While its great that you are so fabulous yourselves that your children wont need need them many people do. They arent evil or wrong, they level the playing field for many people who would not have access to upward mobility they are capable of great things. I beleive in investing in people like that. This is the greatest country in the world and we got that way by investing in ourselves. For many that requires taking on debt to reach one’s potential.

For the record I have as many or more regular folks as friends and clients as fabulous ones. I just know my share of fabulous ones and almost without exception they deserve to be where they are. They are the rockstars of the working world….winning!

[davelj]

[quote=sdrealtor]One of my friend’s father was a barber. Under your opinions you would have sent him to trade school. He went to community college, transferred to a state school, got into an Ivy League medical school, then residencies/fellowships at the top instuations in the country and to this day lives relatively modestly. He has had to buy into a partnership, pay off several hundred K in debt on his education and raise a young family. He’s about 40 now and under your model still would be unable to buy a home despite earning about $500K per year. He has none of the issues you listed and has busted his butt to get where he is which is at the top of his highly specialized medical specialty. He deserves a good quality of life, no make that a great quality of life and no one will convince me otherwise. [/quote]

I’d be careful with use of the word “deserve” in this context. If you take a look around the world and are honest with yourself about your abilities, it’s pretty clear that most people in the U.S. have it far better than they “deserve.” Now, this is all relative, of course. You could argue that these other folks (in developing countries) are getting less than they deserve. My point is that on a relative basis, almost everyone in our country (and arguably Western Europe) gets far more than they “deserve.” Consequently, it would be hard to convince me that anyone actually “deserves” this great quality of life that you’re talking about. It’s merely something that by the luck of the draw happens to be available to a very small minority of folks on the planet. But it is in no way “deserved.” I certainly don’t deserve the standard of living that I enjoy. I’m just one lucky bastard and damn glad that I wasn’t born in Bangladesh.

[quote=sdrealtor]
They dont refuse to retire the debt, it is just so MASSIVE that it takes years to do so. The debt is bigger than most peoples mortgages and these guys knock it out in 10 years or less rather than the 30 years for a mortgage. I’m not saying they shouldnt be fully underwritten but rather they should have the leeway not to put 20% down as you would require in every case. They are good credit risks, certainly much better than a worker be who is one or two missed payments away from poverty.
[/quote]

I hear what you’re saying here, but to take the other side… these are also fairly financially savvy folks. Just the sort of folks who might buy a big house (taking on the large mortgage implied) and walk away from it if prices declined. I’m not suggesting that you approve of this sort of behavior. I’m merely saying that if the recent crisis has taught us one thing it’s that you better have a margin of safety on that collateral… because a helluva a lot of folks (along the entire economic spectrum) don’t give a rat’s ass about meeting a payment obligation if they can legally avoid it.

[davelj]

[quote=sdrealtor]One of my friend’s father was a barber. Under your opinions you would have sent him to trade school. He went to community college, transferred to a state school, got into an Ivy League medical school, then residencies/fellowships at the top instuations in the country and to this day lives relatively modestly. He has had to buy into a partnership, pay off several hundred K in debt on his education and raise a young family. He’s about 40 now and under your model still would be unable to buy a home despite earning about $500K per year. He has none of the issues you listed and has busted his butt to get where he is which is at the top of his highly specialized medical specialty. He deserves a good quality of life, no make that a great quality of life and no one will convince me otherwise. [/quote]

I’d be careful with use of the word “deserve” in this context. If you take a look around the world and are honest with yourself about your abilities, it’s pretty clear that most people in the U.S. have it far better than they “deserve.” Now, this is all relative, of course. You could argue that these other folks (in developing countries) are getting less than they deserve. My point is that on a relative basis, almost everyone in our country (and arguably Western Europe) gets far more than they “deserve.” Consequently, it would be hard to convince me that anyone actually “deserves” this great quality of life that you’re talking about. It’s merely something that by the luck of the draw happens to be available to a very small minority of folks on the planet. But it is in no way “deserved.” I certainly don’t deserve the standard of living that I enjoy. I’m just one lucky bastard and damn glad that I wasn’t born in Bangladesh.

[quote=sdrealtor]
They dont refuse to retire the debt, it is just so MASSIVE that it takes years to do so. The debt is bigger than most peoples mortgages and these guys knock it out in 10 years or less rather than the 30 years for a mortgage. I’m not saying they shouldnt be fully underwritten but rather they should have the leeway not to put 20% down as you would require in every case. They are good credit risks, certainly much better than a worker be who is one or two missed payments away from poverty.
[/quote]

I hear what you’re saying here, but to take the other side… these are also fairly financially savvy folks. Just the sort of folks who might buy a big house (taking on the large mortgage implied) and walk away from it if prices declined. I’m not suggesting that you approve of this sort of behavior. I’m merely saying that if the recent crisis has taught us one thing it’s that you better have a margin of safety on that collateral… because a helluva a lot of folks (along the entire economic spectrum) don’t give a rat’s ass about meeting a payment obligation if they can legally avoid it.

[davelj]

[quote=sdrealtor]One of my friend’s father was a barber. Under your opinions you would have sent him to trade school. He went to community college, transferred to a state school, got into an Ivy League medical school, then residencies/fellowships at the top instuations in the country and to this day lives relatively modestly. He has had to buy into a partnership, pay off several hundred K in debt on his education and raise a young family. He’s about 40 now and under your model still would be unable to buy a home despite earning about $500K per year. He has none of the issues you listed and has busted his butt to get where he is which is at the top of his highly specialized medical specialty. He deserves a good quality of life, no make that a great quality of life and no one will convince me otherwise. [/quote]

I’d be careful with use of the word “deserve” in this context. If you take a look around the world and are honest with yourself about your abilities, it’s pretty clear that most people in the U.S. have it far better than they “deserve.” Now, this is all relative, of course. You could argue that these other folks (in developing countries) are getting less than they deserve. My point is that on a relative basis, almost everyone in our country (and arguably Western Europe) gets far more than they “deserve.” Consequently, it would be hard to convince me that anyone actually “deserves” this great quality of life that you’re talking about. It’s merely something that by the luck of the draw happens to be available to a very small minority of folks on the planet. But it is in no way “deserved.” I certainly don’t deserve the standard of living that I enjoy. I’m just one lucky bastard and damn glad that I wasn’t born in Bangladesh.

[quote=sdrealtor]
They dont refuse to retire the debt, it is just so MASSIVE that it takes years to do so. The debt is bigger than most peoples mortgages and these guys knock it out in 10 years or less rather than the 30 years for a mortgage. I’m not saying they shouldnt be fully underwritten but rather they should have the leeway not to put 20% down as you would require in every case. They are good credit risks, certainly much better than a worker be who is one or two missed payments away from poverty.
[/quote]

I hear what you’re saying here, but to take the other side… these are also fairly financially savvy folks. Just the sort of folks who might buy a big house (taking on the large mortgage implied) and walk away from it if prices declined. I’m not suggesting that you approve of this sort of behavior. I’m merely saying that if the recent crisis has taught us one thing it’s that you better have a margin of safety on that collateral… because a helluva a lot of folks (along the entire economic spectrum) don’t give a rat’s ass about meeting a payment obligation if they can legally avoid it.

[davelj]

[quote=sdrealtor]One of my friend’s father was a barber. Under your opinions you would have sent him to trade school. He went to community college, transferred to a state school, got into an Ivy League medical school, then residencies/fellowships at the top instuations in the country and to this day lives relatively modestly. He has had to buy into a partnership, pay off several hundred K in debt on his education and raise a young family. He’s about 40 now and under your model still would be unable to buy a home despite earning about $500K per year. He has none of the issues you listed and has busted his butt to get where he is which is at the top of his highly specialized medical specialty. He deserves a good quality of life, no make that a great quality of life and no one will convince me otherwise. [/quote]

I’d be careful with use of the word “deserve” in this context. If you take a look around the world and are honest with yourself about your abilities, it’s pretty clear that most people in the U.S. have it far better than they “deserve.” Now, this is all relative, of course. You could argue that these other folks (in developing countries) are getting less than they deserve. My point is that on a relative basis, almost everyone in our country (and arguably Western Europe) gets far more than they “deserve.” Consequently, it would be hard to convince me that anyone actually “deserves” this great quality of life that you’re talking about. It’s merely something that by the luck of the draw happens to be available to a very small minority of folks on the planet. But it is in no way “deserved.” I certainly don’t deserve the standard of living that I enjoy. I’m just one lucky bastard and damn glad that I wasn’t born in Bangladesh.

[quote=sdrealtor]
They dont refuse to retire the debt, it is just so MASSIVE that it takes years to do so. The debt is bigger than most peoples mortgages and these guys knock it out in 10 years or less rather than the 30 years for a mortgage. I’m not saying they shouldnt be fully underwritten but rather they should have the leeway not to put 20% down as you would require in every case. They are good credit risks, certainly much better than a worker be who is one or two missed payments away from poverty.
[/quote]

I hear what you’re saying here, but to take the other side… these are also fairly financially savvy folks. Just the sort of folks who might buy a big house (taking on the large mortgage implied) and walk away from it if prices declined. I’m not suggesting that you approve of this sort of behavior. I’m merely saying that if the recent crisis has taught us one thing it’s that you better have a margin of safety on that collateral… because a helluva a lot of folks (along the entire economic spectrum) don’t give a rat’s ass about meeting a payment obligation if they can legally avoid it.

[davelj]

[quote=sdrealtor]One of my friend’s father was a barber. Under your opinions you would have sent him to trade school. He went to community college, transferred to a state school, got into an Ivy League medical school, then residencies/fellowships at the top instuations in the country and to this day lives relatively modestly. He has had to buy into a partnership, pay off several hundred K in debt on his education and raise a young family. He’s about 40 now and under your model still would be unable to buy a home despite earning about $500K per year. He has none of the issues you listed and has busted his butt to get where he is which is at the top of his highly specialized medical specialty. He deserves a good quality of life, no make that a great quality of life and no one will convince me otherwise. [/quote]

I’d be careful with use of the word “deserve” in this context. If you take a look around the world and are honest with yourself about your abilities, it’s pretty clear that most people in the U.S. have it far better than they “deserve.” Now, this is all relative, of course. You could argue that these other folks (in developing countries) are getting less than they deserve. My point is that on a relative basis, almost everyone in our country (and arguably Western Europe) gets far more than they “deserve.” Consequently, it would be hard to convince me that anyone actually “deserves” this great quality of life that you’re talking about. It’s merely something that by the luck of the draw happens to be available to a very small minority of folks on the planet. But it is in no way “deserved.” I certainly don’t deserve the standard of living that I enjoy. I’m just one lucky bastard and damn glad that I wasn’t born in Bangladesh.

[quote=sdrealtor]
They dont refuse to retire the debt, it is just so MASSIVE that it takes years to do so. The debt is bigger than most peoples mortgages and these guys knock it out in 10 years or less rather than the 30 years for a mortgage. I’m not saying they shouldnt be fully underwritten but rather they should have the leeway not to put 20% down as you would require in every case. They are good credit risks, certainly much better than a worker be who is one or two missed payments away from poverty.
[/quote]

I hear what you’re saying here, but to take the other side… these are also fairly financially savvy folks. Just the sort of folks who might buy a big house (taking on the large mortgage implied) and walk away from it if prices declined. I’m not suggesting that you approve of this sort of behavior. I’m merely saying that if the recent crisis has taught us one thing it’s that you better have a margin of safety on that collateral… because a helluva a lot of folks (along the entire economic spectrum) don’t give a rat’s ass about meeting a payment obligation if they can legally avoid it.

[sdrealtor]

DLJ
Going out of the US is a complete change of context so I wont touch that one. On your other point, the reality is these people are amazingly unsavy when it comes to finances. From what i have seen, they are also more likely to throw good money after bad to keep up appearances rather than to walk away. I would argue they would be the type of people not to walk away even if they should because they have the capacity to do so and know they will keep churing out that big income as long as they want to keep at it.

[sdrealtor]

DLJ
Going out of the US is a complete change of context so I wont touch that one. On your other point, the reality is these people are amazingly unsavy when it comes to finances. From what i have seen, they are also more likely to throw good money after bad to keep up appearances rather than to walk away. I would argue they would be the type of people not to walk away even if they should because they have the capacity to do so and know they will keep churing out that big income as long as they want to keep at it.

[sdrealtor]

DLJ
Going out of the US is a complete change of context so I wont touch that one. On your other point, the reality is these people are amazingly unsavy when it comes to finances. From what i have seen, they are also more likely to throw good money after bad to keep up appearances rather than to walk away. I would argue they would be the type of people not to walk away even if they should because they have the capacity to do so and know they will keep churing out that big income as long as they want to keep at it.

[sdrealtor]

DLJ
Going out of the US is a complete change of context so I wont touch that one. On your other point, the reality is these people are amazingly unsavy when it comes to finances. From what i have seen, they are also more likely to throw good money after bad to keep up appearances rather than to walk away. I would argue they would be the type of people not to walk away even if they should because they have the capacity to do so and know they will keep churing out that big income as long as they want to keep at it.

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