Home › Forums › Financial Markets/Economics › More public pension loony tunes – now Providence RI is in trouble
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CA renter.
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May 11, 2012 at 11:25 AM #743573May 11, 2012 at 11:32 AM #743574
Anonymous
GuestBTW,
It’s ok to call me ‘harvey.’
Do ya’ll really think that ‘pri_dk’ is my real name?
May 11, 2012 at 11:41 AM #743575bearishgurl
Participant[quote=harvey][quote=fat_lazy_union]BG, to counter your equally long post (which I actually read from beginning to end, unlike maybe people who probably wont)… [/quote]
Count me in the “didn’t read it” group. I glanced at it and got the gist of it though.
The whole argument that “my job is hard” is childish and arrogant. WTF do you think the rest of the world does at their jobs? I come from a family of steelworkers and coal miners, many of whom ultimately lost the majority of their pension benefits.
Yeah, let’s talk about difficult jobs and hardship, I could use a good laugh as you lament the horrors of having a dress code in your office…
And the reasoning that goes from “my job is hard” to “therefore you need to cover my investment losses” is absolute nonsense.[/quote]
Yeah, I see YOU (“harvey”) managed to move away from the coal mines to sunny CA and your “job” is equally hard.
I never stated these line jobs are “hard.” I stated that they are rife with a passel of “rules and regulations” and “politics” that I have no doubt most of these “complainers” on here couldn’t follow for even one hour.
I’ll just assume you would get booted out on your a$$ on the first day of your new “gubment gig” like other arrogant posters on this thread who claim they are “worker bees” but are quite obviously “in charge of their own time” during the business day. That is . . . if your “background checks” came out satisfactorily enough to get hired in the first place, lol.
So much for Piggs wanting to apply for these “cushy” jobs . . . I don’t see any “takers” yet …
May 11, 2012 at 11:45 AM #743576briansd1
Guest[quote=CA renter]
I would LOVE to roll-back time … [/quote]Can’t roll back time. We can only look forward.
We are now faced with pension shortfalls at the state and local levels.
There are only a few solutions:
1. Gut services and have larger portions of budget cover pensions. What about the adults and children who depend on the services? What about the workers who are laid-off?
2. Raise local and state taxes.
3. Cut pensions.
4. Get it from the bankers and corporate America. If you have a plan, let’s talk about it.
May 11, 2012 at 11:48 AM #743577an
Participant[quote=bearishgurl]So much for Piggs wanting to apply for these “cushy” jobs . . . I don’t see any “takers” yet …[/quote]
What does desire to apply to public union jobs have anything to do with the debate at hand. Which is about the pension. That’s like saying, why don’t you apply to be a CEO of BAC. If you don’t want to or can’t get it, does that mean his current compensation is justified?May 11, 2012 at 12:00 PM #743579Guest[quote=bearishgurl]Yeah, I see YOU (“harvey”) managed to move away from the coal mines to sunny CA and your “job” is equally hard.[/quote]
My job isn’t terribly difficult, although it does require some unique qualifications that I worked pretty hard to obtain.
The reason I was able to achieve a better lifestyle than my parents was that they worked incredibly hard and made great sacrifices so that their children could get an education and have a better life.
Today there are thousands of parents just like mine once were, struggling to make ends meet and provide a better life for their children.
But public-sector retirees want to take money away from these ambitions, to take the hard-earned money from the paychecks and savings of parents that was meant to go to schools for their children.
And they are getting away with it, at this very moment.
You want to know more about me?
All you need to know is that I got my shot at the American dream, and I believe I have an obligation to help everyone in the next generation get the same.
May 11, 2012 at 12:01 PM #743580Guest[quote=briansd1]4. Get it from the bankers and corporate America. If you have a plan, let’s talk about it.[/quote]
Although #4 sounds appealing, it is completely unrealistic. There is no way to simply “take” from banks and corporations without hurting the thousands of employees who work for them, and the thousands of shareholders who rely on their profits (including the nation’s biggest shareholder, CalPERS.)
May 11, 2012 at 12:12 PM #743581blake
Participant26. Do you get to collect pension and paychecks at the same time?
No. Unlike these guys
27. If you convicted of arson, can you still keep your pensions?
No. Unlike this guy
All these “if you [fill in the blank], then why don’t you [fill in the blank]” and “my job is harder than your job” arguments are just to deflect the issue. The only thing that they need is the “neener neener” at the end.
May 11, 2012 at 12:16 PM #743582Participant[quote=SD Realtor]I showed a firefighter friend of mine bgs ridiculous post about govt workers and he laughed so hard he almost fell over. He was wondering when the last time you actually worked was.
So lets see… should I trust a current govt worker about the way things really are right now or someone who is an internet poster….
pretty easy decision.[/quote]
Actually, I really feel for today’s govm’t workers. Not only do they have MUCH higher health premiums deducted from their pay, their plans are significantly watered down from the plans offered in years and decades past and they have to work five years longer to “vest.”
In addition, instead of paysteps 1-5 and “step 2” being awarded after an initial six-month probationary period, the steps are now 0-8 and “step 0” is the probationary step which is now one year long! Step 0 is equivalent to about step 4-5 in the ’98 negotiations. We’re talking pennies difference between the steps here because these are entry level lineworkers. The steps were increased because they now require an employee to get to step 8 (2 yrs longer) to become eligible to promote internally. It was obviously (reluctantly?) agreed to by the unions to hold down “highest year” and “average of highest 3 years” pay used to calculate future pensions.
I’ve also been told by a current govm’t worker, when visiting an agency other than the one they work on their lunch hour to view or discuss their OWN personal records or business MUST wear their badge and IDENTIFY THEMSELVES as an employee of XYZ agency. If they do not and their employer finds out they were there, they could be disciplined. Apparently, an employee’s legal “unpaid lunch hour” activities have come under scrutiny by the gov’mt employer. Seems to me that the “unions” are losing ground . . .
I can’t imagine walking down the street on my lunch hour to pull my confidential “child support file,” my foster child’s MediCal file or my “disso file,” identifying myself as an xyz agency employee and finding out from my employer after I left that that agency called my agency’s personnel dept to tell them the details of my visit. I was completely aghast when hearing this as that practice appears to me to be an invasion of privacy and unconstitutional on its face.
May 11, 2012 at 12:26 PM #743583
CoronitaParticipantI’m actually going to try to answer these questions BG asked, not that it’s relevant to this discussion.
[quote]
1. Do you routinely “day trade” during NYSE trading hours (6:00 am to 1:00 pm PST)? Do you day-trade in foreign markets between 1:00 and 5:00 pm?
[/quote]Yes I do, but then again you’ll see me up at
9:30pm, 10:30pm, 12am, sometimes 4am..
Why? Because I’ll talking to folks in our Bangalore office, or our build is stuck, or something broke that needs to get before the next morning. Or we’re having a conference call with our dual development team.[quote]
2. If you came back to your workstation a little late from lunch hour because perhaps you got stuck in traffic (as little as 6 mins or 1/10 of an hour), will you be docked vacation pay for it?
[/quote]No, but even if I’m officially OOO from the office for a day, or in the hospital getting treated, my company cell phone rings, there is an expectation that I pick it up and answer the questions at hand…And no, I’m in product development, not customer service/customer support which probably has much worse hours than me…
[quote]
3. If you decided to lay down in the restroom or in your vehicle during a 15 min break because you had a headache and came back 15-30 mins late, would you be docked vacation or sick pay for it?
[/quote]You still get to accrue vacation? Really??? You’re kidding right?
No, my company stopped giving us paid vacation days. In fact ,we can’t accrue anymore., The policy is that if you want to take PTO you just ask your manager/director, and as long as it doesn’t interfere with your work schedule, you can take up two two weeks vacation each time you ask.
If you need to take longer, you need to get a senior VP approval… In theory this means you take unlimited vacation. In practice, it’s subject to work schedule permitting. So if you happen to have a manager that doesn’t like you, you potentially can get screwed. If your work schedule doesn’t permit you to take vacation (which is most likely the case) that year, too damn bad, you lose your vacation. It doesn’t carry over till next year….[quote]
4. If you were arrested for a DUI or other misdemeanor, would your employer get word of it before you even came back to work the next day and take disciplinary action against you, up to and including termination, pending outcome of your case. Would they send one of their “lackeys” to court to watch the resolution of your case?
[/quote]No, my company probablly would just terminate me, no questions asked. Since there was this document called “at-will employment” that you signed prior to joining saying you can be terminated for any reason at any time…
[quote]
5. Have you ever been sent home from work to change clothes and docked vacation pay for the time away from work because your supervisor/mgr did not feel what you wore to work was “appropriate?”
[/quote]No, sorry you got me on this one. On the other hand, there’s been time I wish I could have gone home to take a shower instead of camp in my office all night
[quote]
6. Do you blog, shop online and surf the internet during the business day?
[/quote]yes, so do you.. But besides that, do you ever take any of your work home after 8-5 and actually try to get something done in the middle of the night ,without getting any sort of financial compensation?
[quote]
7. Do you have a keylogger installed on your workstation?
[/quote]No, but we have filters/etc that monitors internet usage…What’s you’re point here?
[quote]
8. Do you have a keystroke counter installed on your workstation? Do you have to tally your work up at the end of each workday, much like showing “billable hours?”
[/quote]No, I get paid a flat rate, based on whether a project/component gets done. Often that means if the component/project is behind schedule, even if it’s not due to me, I’m still on the hook for making up the different on the weekends and extended hours…
[quote]
9. If you have to go to the restroom while at work, do you have to let a coworker know and hang a sign in your workstation showing what time you’ll be back? Has your supervisor ever came in or sent someone into the restroom to find out why you’re taking so long?
[/quote]No, I’m sorry, I don’t have a boss that follows me to the bathroom.
[quote]
10. Did your employer run your credit report as a condition of employment?
[/quote]Absolutely. Everytime time. Especially if you work in a data center and are handling sensitive customer data…
[quote]
11. Did your employer contact as many of your relatives as they could dig up out of the “archives” prior to hire to see what they would say about you?
[/quote]No, but it wouldn’t matter, because unless you have something to hide, what’s the big deal… (Yes, if you’re talking about a security clearance that I once was going to apply for)…
[quote]
12. Did your employer send an investigator out to talk to your neighbors prior to deciding to hire you?
[/quote]No, but it wouldn’t matter, because unless you have something to hide, what’s the big deal… (Yes, if you’re talking about a security clearance that I once was going to apply for)…
[quote]
13. Did your employer run a FBI/CII (now CA DOJ) background check on you and members of your immediate family prior to deciding to hire you?
[/quote]No, but it wouldn’t matter, because unless you have something to hide, what’s the big deal… (Yes, if you’re talking about a security clearance that I once was going to apply for)…
[quote]
14. Did you have to sign an open-ended “release” allowing your employer to perform all of the above “checks” on you prior to hire? Did the release you sign give them the right to keep running these checks throughout your employment? Was the signing of this release a condition of employment?
[/quote]No, but again, what do you have to hide from?
[quote]
15. Does your employer have the right at any time during your employment to demand a “fitness for duty” examination by their doctor in the absence of your filing worker’s comp claim?
[/quote]Yes… That’s standard…
[quote]
16. Were you ever formally disciplined because you called in sick 15 minutes after your “start time” elapsed?
[/quote]No, because it’s pretty shitty that if you are planning to take PTO you don’t tell your supervisor in advance…unless it’s an emergency beyond your control..
[quote]
17. Were you ever formally disciplined because you tried to “sneak out” of work prior to the “closing bell” at 5:00 pm?
[/quote]No, because if I was paid hourly and was expected to work 8-5, I wouldn’t be leaving early and still trying to be bill out the full hour, even if I had nothing to do. That would be unethical..
[quote]
18. Have you ever asked your employer if you could telecommute 1-2 days per week and were told to “pack sand?”
[/quote]No, because telecommute is a privilege not a right. And it’s always at the discretion of the employer. Sometimes, some jobs you just can’t do at home…
[quote]
19. If you are an “hourly” non-exempt employee, have you been denied overtime pay for working late to complete a particular job?
[/quote]No, because our employers found it was cheaper just to make us exempt and give us unrealistic deadlines anyway. Then we can’t complain about not getting overtime pay…
[quote]
20. If you work in downtown SD, is parking provided to you free of charge by your employer?
[/quote]No, but I don’t know of many employers in the city that would offer free parking…At least that’s how it was when I worked in SF.
[quote]
21. Are you allowed to talk on your cell phone, text and go online on your mobile device during working hours?
[/quote]Yes, but I think so can you… If you work at a private defense company, no you can’t… Your point?
[quote]
22. If you have a “side gig” or moonlight, do you need to disclose all the “who, what, when, where and why” about it on a form to your employer (so you can be “monitored” for potential conflicts of interest), lest they find out from another employee (or overhear you talk about it on your lunch hour) and take disciplinary action against you for NOT disclosing it?
[/quote]Uh, you’re serious about this? Absolutely yes. It’s called conflict of interest….And it’s a standard employment practice… Heck, probably more so in the private sector because there are things things called anti-compete clause.
Let me ask you a question…Have you ever had to sign a legal document that says no matter why you get terminated (whether it’s voluntary or not), you cannot go seek employment at a “competitor” or work on competing product Y at anothe company for 2 years, for potentially face XYZ lawsuits? (even though it’s arguable whether it’s enforceable in CA)…
[quote]
23. Have you ever lunched with or hired for labor on your property an ex-con and feared your employer would find out about it and discipline you? Do you actually even run background checks on workers who come on to your property??
[/quote]Whoa… You know people that might be an ex-con… Sounds like a personal problem…
[quote]
24. Are you required to submit to a periodic urinalysis by your employer’s medical contractor as a condition of continuing employment?
[/quote]You mean drug screening? Yes, at some point.
[quote]
25. If arrested for a felony and bailed out of jail, will your employer immediately put you on an unpaid “furlough” pending outcome of your case?
[quote]
[/quote]“Furlonged???? You’re kidding right? Furlonged.?..I’d be fired, regardless of what the result of the case was!!!”
L@rd . . . I can go on …. and on …. and on. Suffice to say I have represented many non-managerial employees in the past on grievances, ULPs and discipline taken against them on the above “transgressions.”
[/quote]Please do…
May 11, 2012 at 12:37 PM #743584ParticipantWow, flu, all I can say is “You’re on a loose leash, dude” . . . Acc to your post, it sounds like your employer just gives you something to do and expects you’ll do it. Why, if your “boss” liked you, he/she just might give you a month or more off to “go on vacation” without you having to have that pesky 15 years of service in first, lol …
Like your situation, I would much prefer to be in charge of my own time and be given deadlines for projects instead of have to do daily “face time” because it’s in the rules. Of course one wouldn’t care too much about leave accrual if this was the case. These types of arrangements are more compatible with “real life.”
Another question …. What will happen if you aren’t able to finish a project given to you by the “deadline” or your “deadline” comes and goes and the “project” assigned to you remains unfinished?
May 11, 2012 at 12:41 PM #743585Participant[quote=fat_lazy_union (aka “flu”)]…Let me ask you a question…Have you ever had to sign a legal document that says no matter why you get terminated (whether it’s voluntary or not), you cannot go seek employment at a “competitor” or work on competing product Y at anothe company for 2 years, for potentially face XYZ lawsuits? (even though it’s arguable whether it’s enforceable in CA)…[/quote]
I’ve heard of these “noncompete agreements” but have never worked in a biz that uses them.
May 11, 2012 at 12:43 PM #743586CoronitaParticipant[quote=bearishgurl]Wow, flu, all I can say is “You’re on a loose leash, dude” . . . Acc to your post, it sounds like your employer just gives you something to do and expects you’ll do it. Why, if your “boss” liked you, he/she just might give you a month or more off to “go on vacation” without you having to have that pesky 15 years of service in first, lol …
Like your situation, I would much prefer to be in charge of my own time and be given deadlines for projects instead of have to do daily “face time” because it’s in the rules. Of course one wouldn’t care too much about leave accrual if this was the case. These types of arrangements are more compatible with “real life.”
Another question …. What will happen if you aren’t able to finish a project given to you by the “deadline” or your “deadline” comes and goes and the “project” assigned to you remains unfinished?[/quote]
Leave acrrual is important. Because it’s PTO…IE, legally in CA if you leave your job, you have to be paid out your vacation time… Private sector companies have found ways around that…By saying it’s not PTO anymore, but just something else… Perfectly legal, and reduces company’s financial obligation…
[quote]
Another question …. What will happen if you aren’t able to finish a project given to you by the “deadline” or your “deadline” comes and goes and the “project” assigned to you remains unfinished?
[/quote]Depends on if they can find someone to blame…Sometimes entire teams get dismissed, disbanded, demoted, whatever..
People like me who care would probably quit, or reassign myself to something else…And yeah, that usually involves re-establishing self in new environment. I typically do it every 3 years….Sometimes less than that. Speaking of which I’m nearing 3 years…..May 11, 2012 at 12:44 PM #743588CoronitaParticipant[quote=bearishgurl][quote=fat_lazy_union (aka “flu”)]…Let me ask you a question…Have you ever had to sign a legal document that says no matter why you get terminated (whether it’s voluntary or not), you cannot go seek employment at a “competitor” or work on competing product Y at anothe company for 2 years, for potentially face XYZ lawsuits? (even though it’s arguable whether it’s enforceable in CA)…[/quote]
I’ve heard of these “noncompete agreements” but have never worked in a biz that uses them.[/quote]
You don’t typically have a non-compete clause in the public sector i would guess.
May 11, 2012 at 12:47 PM #743587Guest[quote=bearishgurl]Another question …. What will happen if you aren’t able to finish a project given to you by the “deadline” or your “deadline” comes and goes and the “project” assigned to you remains unfinished?[/quote]
A glaring example of how some people simply don’t understand the most basic distinction between “private” and “public” sector.
Part of the answer that flu left out:
Their customers buy a different product, from a competitor, one that did complete on time. And his employer has less money, and if there isn’t enough money to pay all the salaries…
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