Food Stamp Riots

[SD Realtor]

Copied from the coming food stamp riots from Michael Snyder….

Fifty million. Consider that for a moment. Most of those 50 million people live in high-density cities. Many are proud owners of Obama phones, Obama food stamps, Obama unemployment checks and Obama subsidized housing. They have absolutely no clue that the government upon which they wholly depend to put food on the table is teetering on the verge of permanent collapse. (Seriously, they cannot conceive of the idea of government “running out of money” because they do not understand where money comes from.) Because of this distorted belief, they do not prepare for any future events other than more Obama handouts. Their entire “preparedness” plan is to vote for Democrats, because that’s who they know will give them the most handouts. And they will always win the popular vote, too, because any politician promising to restore responsible fiscal spending to the government by cutting programs will be viciously accused of being “mean” or involved in “hating poor people.” So the government handouts will only ratchet higher and higher, ensnaring more and more people, until the entire system is unsustainable and collapses under its own weight.

When that system of dependence fails, those who depend on it will panic in mere hours. As proof of this, consider the fact that this mass looting of Wal-Mart stores happened in less than three hours after the Saturday EBT card glitch struck. Police had to be called in to prevent the situation from getting completely out of control, and it was offline for only part of one day.

Now imagine what will happen when EBT cards go offline for 24, 48 or even 72 hours. And imagine it happening in every U.S. city simultaneously

******************

Hope he is incorrect however I don’t really see . out of the spiral we are in. More handouts equals more votes equals more handouts. I see no way the cycle gets broken until the system breaks down. When it does it will not be pretty.

[ucodegen]

I know that this is inevitable, though I try to get some people to pay attention and learn. Part of it is due to current society not wanting to be responsible and accountable for their behavior – nod to the motorcyclists going after a Range Rover.. amongst others. Since it is inevitable, the real thing is to figure out how to be safe and profit from it.

[paramount]

The system of dependence will not fail in 10 lifetimes.

[scaredyclassic]

i was dependent on bank of america for my 1098s.

but no more.

when they cut off my online access, im going to go riot in my yard.

[spdrun]

You’re still [email protected] about this? Did you finish your taxes, or waste all your time till the deadline b1tching about BoA online? 😀

[scaredyclassic]

[quote=spdrun]You’re still [email protected] about this? Did you finish your taxes, or waste all your time till the deadline b1tching about BoA online? :D[/quote]

never forget.

i filed timely. best i could.

[svelte]

[quote=ucodegen] the real thing is to figure out how to be safe and profit from it.[/quote]

here’s how: provoke and encourage fear in populous, run for office as a Republican, and watch the donations pour in.

[spdrun]

How about buying “RGR” and “SWHC” stock on dips?

[no_such_reality]

I think it looks very different than you think. The recent Walmart mistake in Louisiana paints a different picture.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57607332/ebt-benefit-card-glitch-sparks-walmart-shopping-sprees-in-louisiana/

Not, the same outage occurred in numerous locations, but this only happened where someone said honor the cards anyway.

In other locations there were no issues.

[SD Realtor]

Maybe nsr, however I tend to fall into agreement with the author.

I hope for my kids sake I am wrong but I don’t see the direction of the country changing. I think we have way to much inertia in the “you will be taken care of” direction. We have 10’s of millions who need it, and we have dug ourselves into a hole where we cannot stop providing for them. The party that provides the most will always be elected now.

I see no way out, perhaps others do.

[no_such_reality]

The world fundamentally needs to change. Automation is, and will continue, to largely make 90% of the population irrelevant from a labor standpoint.

The vast majority of the population, not only don’t have the education, they don’t have the family dynamic, they don’t have nutrition, they don’t have the raw life enrichment experiences necessary to develop the raw mental horsepower needed to be part of the creative class.

The question is how will we get over the hump before we rip ourselves apart.

[SD Realtor]

NSR I cannot argue with that point. It makes sense.

However I am discussing the entitlement mentality.

Okay for example, I have several midwest rentals. Alot of them are in working class neighborhoods. One of my tenants is chronically late on rent. All the time. However she always ends up getting it to me. She is in her 50’s with two good for nothing kids and two grandkids. She has no education. She gets some child support. She makes ends meet by getting housekeeping, babysitting and eldercare jobs. She uses care.com. She has no certifications. She works hard and is able bodied. She could collect welfare and SNAP and all that but she says as long as she is able to work she would feel very bad about taking support.

I think more and more, hers is a mentality that is vanishing amoung lower end working class. It is easier to throw in the towel.

Look at the SNAP program. In 2000 it was $17B and now it is $78B. Over 47 million on it. Stats show that the once on it, most stay on it. Then there is another $40 millions spent on advertising and outreach. There are recruiters and events actively recruiting more people for it…

I am in favor of the assistance.. it is yet another entitlement to an ever growing safety net. However all of the recruiting and quotas… it just serves the purposes of promoting dependency rather then weaning people off of it.

[no_such_reality]

There’s an old quote I learned from Civilization IV.

[quote]The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy[/quote]

Oddly apropos…

Potentially a quote from Oscar Wilde, potentially much older quote.

[SD Realtor]

Very well put!

[flyer]

Agree with these viewpoints.

The sad thing is that, IMO, even those in future generations with the family background, education, etc., etc., will still struggle to live the lives of their dreams, so don’t be deluded into thinking these trends will only affect “the masses.”

We’re already seeing evidence of this in increasing numbers with some of our kids friends, all of whom were raised in RSF. So far, our kids, who are in their late 20’s, are doing well after college, but I would say, rough estimate, over 50% of their friends are not. By well, I mean the ability to achieve your dreams/goals in life.

What’s really unbelievable, is when you ask their parents what the kids are planning to do after college, many of them just try to avoid the subject–since they probably have no idea. Sad.
A sign of things to come? Only time will tell.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=flyer]Agree with these viewpoints.

The sad thing is that, IMO, even those in future generations with the family background, education, etc., etc., will still struggle to live the lives of their dreams, so don’t be deluded into thinking these trends will only affect “the masses.”

We’re already seeing evidence of this in increasing numbers with some of our kids friends, all of whom were raised in RSF. So far, our kids, who are in their late 20’s, are doing well after college, but I would say, rough estimate, over 50% of their friends are not. By well, I mean the ability to achieve your dreams/goals in life.

What’s really unbelievable, is when you ask their parents what the kids are planning to do after college, many of them just try to avoid the subject–since they probably have no idea. Sad.
A sign of things to come? Only time will tell.[/quote]

flyer, you’ve posted before here that your kids (like mine) left SD County to pursue their dreams. IMO, THAT is the key to success for local Gen Y college graduates. It is possible that some of your neighbors’ kids majored in degrees that will not land them any meaningful employment and that is the reason they can’t find a job. Another reason is that they are unwilling to relocate because they would have to move away from parents’ homes, which offer a better lifestyle than they can afford on their own. This is partly a parent-enabled phenomenon, IMO.

IMO, the key to success for local young college graduates today is to major in highly employable fields in college and be willing to relocate ANYWHERE to get their career started. They can always return to SD County, later . . . after they have moved up the career ladder in their field and can command a much higher wage.

All is not lost for Native San Diegan college students and recent grads who are serious about majoring in an employable field and finding a suitable “first job” for themselves … wherever that may be.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=SD Realtor]NSR I cannot argue with that point. It makes sense.

However I am discussing the entitlement mentality.

Okay for example, I have several midwest rentals. Alot of them are in working class neighborhoods. One of my tenants is chronically late on rent. All the time. However she always ends up getting it to me. She is in her 50’s with two good for nothing kids and two grandkids. She has no education. She gets some child support. She makes ends meet by getting housekeeping, babysitting and eldercare jobs. She uses care.com. She has no certifications. She works hard and is able bodied. She could collect welfare and SNAP and all that but she says as long as she is able to work she would feel very bad about taking support.

I think more and more, hers is a mentality that is vanishing amoung lower end working class. It is easier to throw in the towel.

Look at the SNAP program. In 2000 it was $17B and now it is $78B. Over 47 million on it. Stats show that the once on it, most stay on it. Then there is another $40 millions spent on advertising and outreach. There are recruiters and events actively recruiting more people for it…

I am in favor of the assistance.. it is yet another entitlement to an ever growing safety net. However all of the recruiting and quotas… it just serves the purposes of promoting dependency rather then weaning people off of it.[/quote]

I’m reading about one of SDR’s out-of-state tenants here who can apparently qualify for various types of aid and is not taking any. That is a typical mindset of boomers and beyond in much of America’s “flyover country.” It’s called PRIDE. Would SDR prefer that she avail herself of some of that aid so she can pay the rent on time? Or stop trying to “help” her “good for nothing” kids, and, by proxy, her grandkids, so she can pay the rent on time?? Obviously, if her “good for nothing” kids have kids, then they must be on aid, no? And are able to share some of that aid with grandma, who may take care of her grandkids whenever she is available to do so?

Believe it or not, there are THOUSANDS of these “good for nothing” 18-45 year-old parents still living with THEIR parents right here in SD County … yes, even in RSF. This problem isn’t confined to “working class neighborhoods.”

I’m won’t speak for him but I’m sure flyer can attest to this.

[CDMA ENG]

[quote=no_such_reality]The world fundamentally needs to change. Automation is, and will continue, to largely make 90% of the population irrelevant from a labor standpoint.

The vast majority of the population, not only don’t have the education, they don’t have the family dynamic, they don’t have nutrition, they don’t have the raw life enrichment experiences necessary to develop the raw mental horsepower needed to be part of the creative class.

The question is how will we get over the hump before we rip ourselves apart.[/quote]

+1

CE

[bearishgurl]

[quote=no_such_reality]The world fundamentally needs to change. Automation is, and will continue, to largely make 90% of the population irrelevant from a labor standpoint.

The vast majority of the population, not only don’t have the education, they don’t have the family dynamic, they don’t have nutrition, they don’t have the raw life enrichment experiences necessary to develop the raw mental horsepower needed to be part of the creative class.

The question is how will we get over the hump before we rip ourselves apart.[/quote]

The emphasized portion of this statement is a very “elitest” attitude, IMO. Regardless of a job applicant’s educational level, only a very small portion of jobs available in the US are “creative.” The vast majority of jobs have been long-ago described in a classification manual and desk manual (for performance evaluation benchmarks) and are within organizations which have many rules and regulations for employees to follow. For example, a public school teacher and police officer (both great careers to aspire to) are not “creative” jobs in an of themselves, but they are needed in society.

America needs and will continue to need all kinds of workers, not just “creative types.” It’s not for elitest-types (or wanna-be elitest-types) living in SoCal (where fresh produce is in abundance and relatively cheap) to decide whether a midwestern diet of home-canned fruits and vegetables from a home garden, meat butchered and packaged locally or fish caught locally, milk pasteurized locally and real mashed potatoes with homemade gravy isn’t “nutritional.” Nor are they qualified to decide whether most Americans possess the “raw life enrichment experiences” or “family dynamic” necessary to develop the “raw mental horsepower” or whether they might already possess the “raw mental horsepower” to begin with.

Get up at 4:00 am 6-7 days per week to start chores on your “working farm or ranch” and tell me how much “raw mental horsepower” is needed to sustain that type of discipline, year in and year out.

Sorry, but it’s not the same thing as stopping off at Starbucks on your commute to a desk job in SoCal where you will report to a cubicle between 8 and 9 am, immediately put your flip-flopped feet on the desk and pipe up your laptop for the day in your supposedly “creative job.”

[jeff303]

[quote=bearishgurl]
America needs and will continue to need all kinds of workers, not just “creative types.” It’s not for elitest-types (or wanna-be elitest-types) living in SoCal (where fresh produce is in abundance and relatively cheap) to decide whether a midwestern diet of home-canned fruits and vegetables from a home garden, meat butchered and packaged locally or fish caught locally, milk pasteurized locally and real mashed potatoes with homemade gravy isn’t “nutritional.” Nor are they qualified to decide whether most Americans possess the “raw life enrichment experiences” or “family dynamic” necessary to develop the “raw mental horsepower” or whether they might already possess the “raw mental horsepower” to begin with.

Get up at 4:00 am 6-7 days per week to start chores on your “working farm or ranch” and tell me how much “raw mental horsepower” is needed to sustain that type of discipline, year in and year out.

Sorry, but it’s not the same thing as stopping off at Starbucks on your commute to a desk job in SoCal where you will report to a cubicle between 8 and 9 am, immediately put your flip-flopped feet on the desk and pipe up your laptop for the day in your supposedly “creative job.”[/quote]

I don’t think anyone is disparaging people who obviously work very hard in more physically-oriented jobs, or discounting their discipline or worth to society. The point is that like it or not, these jobs will gradually go away. Hell, so will most “creative” jobs (already happening to travel agents, accountants and lawyers are next). The free market demands that profits continue to grow every quarter, and the easiest way to achieve that growth is to reduce labor costs via automation. It has been happening throughout history and will continue to do so. Whereas many farmers used to be required to tend to one farm, now a single farmer can manage a much larger land area through the use of technology. And one day, almost no farmers will even be out physically on the fields; a small number of them will just be overseeing the operations of robots harvesting the fields.

I agree with others that say there will be some sort of major upheaval, probably in my lifetime. The only hope I can see to alleviating this outcome is something like essentially free universal power (fusion or similar), or mass rollout/usage/hacking of 3D printing. For the time being, wealth will continue to flow upward at an ever increasing pace, since the already wealthy are the ones who will own the profits from increased automation.

[no_such_reality]

[quote=bearishgurl][quote=no_such_reality]The world fundamentally needs to change. Automation is, and will continue, to largely make 90% of the population irrelevant from a labor standpoint.

The vast majority of the population, not only don’t have the education, they don’t have the family dynamic, they don’t have nutrition, they don’t have the raw life enrichment experiences necessary to develop the raw mental horsepower needed to be part of the creative class.

The question is how will we get over the hump before we rip ourselves apart.[/quote]

The emphasized portion of this statement is a very “elitest” attitude, IMO. Regardless of a job applicant’s educational level, only a very small portion of jobs available in the US are “creative.”[/quote]

BG, you’re missing the point. The point I made, that you then reiterated is that few, of the total, jobs are creative. Creative as in make something, create, not assemble. In LAUSD, a 1/3rd of the students don’t graduate. That’s not elitist attitude on my part, that’s a fact from LAUSD. Even farming is becoming ‘creative’.

Will we always need farmers? Yes, but as we’ve discussed in a previous thread, the machines on the farm now make it so that a family of four can do the work of 100 from as little as 40 years ago. That’s my point, we need 4 now, no longer a 100. That’s the dynamic I’m worried about. It also requires a lot of a knowledge. And the raw horsepower is that willpower you mention to do it, everyday. Research and find answers, to build the marketing network to sell their product.

It’s also not elitist to recognize that it isn’t just genetics or the child’s stick-to-it-ness. It’s family support, teacher support, it’s having parents that provide a lifestyle that provides safety and experiences to grow from. Can a completely average kid from the ghetto make it? Sure, but let’s be honest, it’s rare, not because there anything inherently wrong with the kid, but because his environment (on average) has stacked a much higher and steeper mountain to get there.

The mental horsepower, or to borrow a phrase from some guys from Harvard and Yale, cognitive load carrying capacity, is large. Environment, training, experience and safety net determine how quickly stressers burn up your cognitive load. There’s a very recent interesting study about cognitive load and how it doesn’t really matter if you’re rich or poor, if you’re given stressors, like financial difficulties, that take up your cognitive load, you start to make bad decisions, rich or poor, you make the characteristic decisions that lead to being poorer.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=no_such_reality][quote=bearishgurl][quote=no_such_reality]The world fundamentally needs to change. Automation is, and will continue, to largely make 90% of the population irrelevant from a labor standpoint.

The vast majority of the population, not only don’t have the education, they don’t have the family dynamic, they don’t have nutrition, they don’t have the raw life enrichment experiences necessary to develop the raw mental horsepower needed to be part of the creative class.

The question is how will we get over the hump before we rip ourselves apart.[/quote]

The emphasized portion of this statement is a very “elitest” attitude, IMO. Regardless of a job applicant’s educational level, only a very small portion of jobs available in the US are “creative.”[/quote]

BG, you’re missing the point. The point I made, that you then reiterated is that few, of the total, jobs are creative. Creative as in make something, create, not assemble. In LAUSD, a 1/3rd of the students don’t graduate. That’s not elitist attitude on my part, that’s a fact from LAUSD. Even farming is becoming ‘creative’.

Will we always need farmers? Yes, but as we’ve discussed in a previous thread, the machines on the farm now make it so that a family of four can do the work of 100 from as little as 40 years ago. That’s my point, we need 4 now, no longer a 100. That’s the dynamic I’m worried about. It also requires a lot of a knowledge. And the raw horsepower is that willpower you mention to do it, everyday. Research and find answers, to build the marketing network to sell their product.

It’s also not elitist to recognize that it isn’t just genetics or the child’s stick-to-it-ness. It’s family support, teacher support, it’s having parents that provide a lifestyle that provides safety and experiences to grow from. Can a completely average kid from the ghetto make it? Sure, but let’s be honest, it’s rare, not because there anything inherently wrong with the kid, but because his environment (on average) has stacked a much higher and steeper mountain to get there.

The mental horsepower, or to borrow a phrase from some guys from Harvard and Yale, cognitive load carrying capacity, is large. Environment, training, experience and safety net determine how quickly stressers burn up your cognitive load. There’s a very recent interesting study about cognitive load and how it doesn’t really matter if you’re rich or poor, if you’re given stressors, like financial difficulties, that take up your cognitive load, you start to make bad decisions, rich or poor, you make the characteristic decisions that lead to being poorer.[/quote]

nsr, that all depends on what you define as “family support, teacher support” and “having parents that provide a lifestyle that provides safety and experiences to grow from” and where you are defining “the ghetto” to be.

I have a sneaking suspicion that I see the former to be a much broader array of “support people” for kids (who may or may not be related to them) and I see a broader array of successful “family compositions” in America than you do. And in the latter, I likely feel there is a broader range of suitable areas to raise a family in than you do.

After all, wasn’t Barack Obama raised by a grandparent?

Ivy league academics aside (who likely have never been employed in the “real world” themselves), I really believe it is all up to each individual kid how much drive they have to succeed. It is not uncommon for three siblings, all who grew up in the same home with the same parents have vastly different levels of “life success” from each other.

[NotCranky]

del

[all]

[quote=Blogstar]del[/quote]

You are missing CTRL+ALT.

[NotCranky]

[quote=all][quote=Blogstar]del[/quote]

You are missing CTRL+ALT.[/quote]
Thanks.

BG, you could be missing something because you are making a lot of assumptions…it’s that simple. Not to say I have a crystal ball.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=Blogstar][quote=all][quote=Blogstar]del[/quote]

You are missing CTRL+ALT.[/quote]
Thanks.

BG, you could be missing something because you are making a lot of assumptions…it’s that simple. Not to say I have a crystal ball.[/quote]

The only “assumptions” I have made here is that the US far northern, mountainous and coastal residents will continue to need (and purchase) the food and gas which is grown and produced in the nation’s midsection. And long-haul trucking companies and the railroads will continue to carry it all to its destinations.

These things aren’t going to change in our lifetimes, IMO.

[no_such_reality]

Your too busy pontificating from the chip on your shoulder to realize you’re not even part of the same discussion the rest of us are having.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=no_such_reality]Your too busy pontificating from the chip on your shoulder to realize you’re not even part of the same discussion the rest of us are having.[/quote]

Sorry you feel that way. Unlike you, I just don’t feel all these “labor jobs” are going anywhere.

[ucodegen]

[quote=bearishgurl]The only “assumptions” I have made here is that the US far northern, mountainous and coastal residents will continue to need (and purchase) the food and gas which is grown and produced in the nation’s midsection. And long-haul trucking companies and the railroads will continue to carry it all to its destinations.[/quote] The central sections are not the oil producers you think they are. The Dakotas are north(newest oil boom), Alaska is way north. Have you ever seen vegetables grown in Alaska? Creepy until you realize that during the summer, they have 20 hours of sunlight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Dakota_oil_boom

80 lb cabbage when I looked..
http://www.alaska.com/about/weather/

[ucodegen]

[quote=Blogstar][quote=all][quote=Blogstar]del[/quote]

You are missing CTRL+ALT.[/quote]
Thanks.

BG, you could be missing something because you are making a lot of assumptions…it’s that simple. Not to say I have a crystal ball.[/quote]
She is making a heck of a lot of assumptions. She is looking at the motivated group of Gen Ys, ignoring those that are not. Just want to party, smoke weed and play video games. One I know of intentionally broke their old phone because they wanted a new iPhone, and they might get their Mom to buy them a new phone if the old was broken. This person was encouraged by their peer group to do this. BTW, this person is over 18.

We have been so concerned about not offending, being PC, not making others feel bad about themselves and not allowing people to have difficulties. How are kids and youth that have grown up in this scenario going to handle having to get up at 4am in the morning to do physical labor? How are they going to handle responsibility? Disappointment?

They want and have no patience to work for it or to delay gratification. They want instant gratification and they have learned that if they throw a tantrum, they can get it and steal it if you still don’t get it. Honest and integrity don’t matter. Lie if it gets you what you want.

While there have always been people like this, as a percentage of the population, their numbers are increasing and that is the real problem.

[NotCranky]

It cracks me up how the moderate haves think that they are experts at delayed gratification and pulling themselves up by the bootstraps and that people who start at the bottom in wealth, education, family constitution, environment, and social status are just not exercising their choices properly. I know everybody battles through losses in life , but some people have nothing to lose, ever…pretty much no tools. We are not good at allocating these tools or don’t seriously care to.

I look at my fairly well to do neighbors, very decent people, but with a few exceptions, I don’t see how they did anything they weren’t fairly groomed for and they certainly don’t seem to do delayed gratification. Lots of people treating themselves like spoiled children from all walks of life. What would happen if their choices crashed to almost nothing?

[CDMA ENG]

I think everyone here, with a rare few, understands the problem.

As the reduction of labor, and by extension people, continues due to automation, and other such things, it makes me wonder what will be the drivers for population reduction.

And reduction is the key issue here for a greater disturbution of wealth, education, and social well-being…

SDDuuuude once showed me a study showing that most likely it would be the price of resources.

China is trying to be proactive with a “One Child Policy”.

MISH thinks it will be war…

One could argue that it would probably be a combination of the first and the third but either way the demand for physical… and intellectual labor (though disportantionly physical) is disappearing and unless something is address proactively then the third option is mostly likely…

Fortunately we, as a country, are very good at the third… that does not mean I condone it.

CE

[NotCranky]

Even wars don’t need the underclass anymore, not to the extent of any past wars. That would have to be history’s most cynical war..to get rid of people. How does that compare to food stamp riots?

[bearishgurl]

[quote=CDMA ENG]I think everyone here, with a rare few, understands the problem.

As the reduction of labor, and by extension people, continues due to automation, and other such things, it makes me wonder what will be the drivers for population reduction.

And reduction is the key issue here for a greater disturbution of wealth, education, and social well-being…

SDDuuuude once showed me a study showing that most likely it would be the price of resources.

China is trying to be proactive with a “One Child Policy”.

MISH thinks it will be war…

One could argue that it would probably be a combination of the first and the third but either way the demand for physical… and intellectual labor (though disportantionly physical) is disappearing and unless something is address proactively then the third option is mostly likely…

Fortunately we, as a country, are very good at the third… that does not mean I condone it.

CE[/quote]

Are the rest of the US all of a sudden going to stop needing the food and gas and oil that the country’s midsection produces … all with PHYSICAL LABOR jobs??

What about gradually? I don’t think it will be uncommon that new gas-powered vehicles will still be running 30 years from now. And they are STILL being manufactured today. And will the rest of the country’s residents have no need for the meat, dairy, grain and produce (grown in flyover America) in the coming decades?

I understand automation is used successfully in factories but humans are still needed to supervise it. Gen X/Y have been leaving family farms to attend college elsewhere for decades … and perhaps never returning. How will this change?

Sorry, but I just don’t see Americans surviving on MREs and seaweed briquettes in any of our lifetimes. I see Gen Y getting living-wage jobs, partly due to massive boomer retirements from here on out. That is, those Gen Y who are serious about majoring in an employable field and willing to relocate, if necessary.

Am I missing something??

[SK in CV]

[quote=bearishgurl]
Am I missing something??[/quote]

Not sure if you’re missing something or not. The shift will be gradual. The tipping point will be sudden. The turmoil in the middle east is a perfect example. Life has been crappy in Egypt for 50 years. But the trend over that 50 years has been crappier and crappier as there have been fewer jobs, more hungry people and an economy generally trending downwards. And then the suffering hit critical mass. It was the same story in Libya and in Syria. (I’m not dismissing outside influence, and this isn’t meant to be derail the discussion towards ME politics, it’s just an example.) We have already seen the same trend in the US. It is what the occupy movement was all about, it just failed to hit critical mass. Without substantial change in trajectory, eventually it will.

[no_such_reality]

From US EPA
[quote]In 1935, the number of farms in the United States peaked at 6.8 million as the population edged over 127 million citizens. As the number of farmers has declined, the demand for agricultural products has increased. This increased demand has been met (and exceeded) with the aid of large-scale mechanization (the use of large, productive pieces of farm equipment), improved crop varieties, commercial fertilizers, and pesticides. The need for human labor has also declined as evidenced by the increase in agricultural labor efficiency over the past century – from 27.5 acres/worker in 1890 to 740 acres/worker in 1990 (Illinois data; Hunt, 2001).[/quote]

Do you understand what that says? We need 1 for every 27 we used to need. That growth continues.

What are the other 26 that used to farm going to do?

It’s the same in many occupations, yes, including Doctors, machines now read x-rays, tests and MRIs.

Police? Even the number of police per citizen is decreasing due to technology advances.

While we may need 1000 more police officers in San Diego, the population in San Diego has increased by 700,000. And in near future, before we add another 1000 officers, it’ll increase by another 1,000,000.

[CDMA ENG]

[quote=bearishgurl][quote=CDMA ENG]I think everyone here, with a rare few, understands the problem.

As the reduction of labor, and by extension people, continues due to automation, and other such things, it makes me wonder what will be the drivers for population reduction.

Also the boomers dying off will do nothing for us…

It is well known that:

Gen Y Population >> Gen X & Boomers Populations

And reduction is the key issue here for a greater disturbution of wealth, education, and social well-being…

SDDuuuude once showed me a study showing that most likely it would be the price of resources.

China is trying to be proactive with a “One Child Policy”.

MISH thinks it will be war…

One could argue that it would probably be a combination of the first and the third but either way the demand for physical… and intellectual labor (though disportantionly physical) is disappearing and unless something is address proactively then the third option is mostly likely…

Fortunately we, as a country, are very good at the third… that does not mean I condone it.

CE[/quote]

Are the rest of the US all of a sudden going to stop needing the food and gas and oil that the country’s midsection produces … all with PHYSICAL LABOR jobs??

What about gradually? I don’t think it will be uncommon that new gas-powered vehicles will still be running 30 years from now. And they are STILL being manufactured today. And will the rest of the country’s residents have no need for the meat, dairy, grain and produce (grown in flyover America) in the coming decades?

I understand automation is used successfully in factories but humans are still needed to supervise it. Gen X/Y have been leaving family farms to attend college elsewhere for decades … and perhaps never returning. How will this change?

Sorry, but I just don’t see Americans surviving on MREs and seaweed briquettes in any of our lifetimes. I see Gen Y getting living-wage jobs, partly due to massive boomer retirements from here on out. That is, those Gen Y who are serious about majoring in an employable field and willing to relocate, if necessary.

Am I missing something??[/quote]

A lot. No one assumes a “George Jetson” future where a machine does one hundered percent of the work. It has been explained, multiple times, why there is will a huge reduction in need for physical, and some intellectual, labor.

If you continue to miss the point, especially after some excellent examples have been presented, it is your doing.

Again… Everyone, except for a few, accepts the idea…

For a moment let’s turn to you arguement about retiring Boomers…

Gen Y Population >> Gen X Population…

So this not being a 1 to 1 factor doesn’t really pan out in favor of labor (physical or intellectual).

We should move well past this arguement as it is not even an arguement, at this point, but turn our attention on how, as NSR put it “Change the world funadmentally” without ripping ourselves apart globally, nationally, locally, tribally, and so forth.

There are millions in China without real wage jobs… You only need to look at China… It will be only a matter of time before something radical happens there. They will be the crystal ball for other modern societies.

You can you continue your denial… Mostly likely you will be dead and I will be out of the work force and dying myself when the magnitude of this problem comes to bear… so no sweat there…

Hopefully we have recognized this and dealt with the problem before it becomes too late and the third option is rendered.

I do not see an apopyloptic future, as you state, where we are eating MREs and Seaweed biscuits.

To be quite frank I see us more like Mexico or Central America… Where the rich are abudcted daily and the rule of law is anything but…

“Ignorance frequently begets confidence more then confidence does…” Charlie “D”

CE

[no_such_reality]

[quote=CDMA ENG]
A lot. No one assumes a “George Jetson” future where a machine does one hundered percent of the work. It has been explained, multiple times, why there is will a huge reduction in need for physical, and some intellectual, labor.[/quote]

I think a lot of intellectual jobs, such as Software Developers, are beginning the winter of their discontent and looking at a future that manufacturing was looking at starting in the late 1970s.

One last attempt at prospective. We’ve talked oil, there’s a boatload of good paying jobs in the Dakota oil fields.

Since 2007, the Bakken Oil Formation counties have experienced explosive growth and current have 3% unemployment. Impressive, be flexible. Go where the jobs are.

Now reality. From 2007-2011, all industries in those counties added 27,954 jobs. Twenty seven thousand jobs. Overall North Dakota employment grew about 30,000 jobs since 2007. A part of the Bakken Formation is in Montana but Montana has actually lost employment since 2007 in spite of oil field work.

Why is that important? Perspective. San Diego City has 56,160 people currently unemployed looking for work. A little over twice ALL the jobs created with the oil boom in the Bakken Field.

San Diego county, has 125,860 people unemployed and looking for work. That 4.5X all the jobs, across industries created in the Bakken field boom.

Finally, in that same time period, San Diego City grew a net 40,000 people.

[spdrun]

Interesting question: if people are no longer tied to a job to get health insurance, will this encourage more people who are unhappy with their jobs to drop out of the labor market, thus opening these jobs to people who need them more?

Some Conservatives are saying that “Obamacare discourages work” as if it were a bad thing, when in reality, it may be a balancing factor for the labor market.

[joec]

[quote=spdrun]Interesting question: if people are no longer tied to a job to get health insurance, will this encourage more people who are unhappy with their jobs to drop out of the labor market, thus opening these jobs to people who need them more?

Some Conservatives are saying that “Obamacare discourages work” as if it were a bad thing, when in reality, it may be a balancing factor for the labor market.[/quote]

I mentioned this in the shutdown thread as well…I think this reality will be a benefit for a lot of people if people who hate their jobs move on and do something else freeing up their job for someone who truly loves it. It will be a positive realignment of the workforce. These could be “good” (higher paying) jobs as well such as Lawyers, Doctors, sales, tech, finance, etc…

Overall, decoupling work with health care is a net positive for businesses who should be focused on their business instead of wasting time debating what health benefits to offer. Unless we are willing to pull the plug on people and simply deny health care when people are dying, I feel you have to have something since all these people are already forced to use emergency rooms now. US is the only industrialized nation without some form of universal health care.

How we pay for it, I don’t know…I think related to this topic, I’ll probably be long dead before all the shit hits the fan, but if the majority eventually has it worst and worst, I can’t help but imagine that those don’t have will simply feel upset enough to use greater “force” (and I don’t mean occupy wall street peacefully) to take from the few who have plenty. It’s just human nature if things are bad enough.

[scaredyclassic]

coud it be that greater efficiency goes to support a greater load of “freeloaders” and that this is sutainable, sort of?

[Jazzman]

[quote=6packscaredy]coud it be that greater efficiency goes to support a greater load of “freeloaders” and that this is sutainable, sort of?[/quote]
Yes, it could. But is it possible in a country the size of the US? Maybe the ACA will provide some answers. A while back, the WSJ did a feature on the Nordic model of welfare capitalism. The notion of 60% tax would freak anyone out, but how is it that the Norwegians et al seem happy with it. By all accounts it is efficient and sustainable. If the US aspires to middle-classdom, isn’t that sort of socialism, and if all that means is that everyone pays higher taxes for tangible benefits organized efficiently by non-profit entities, isn’t that something worth exploring? How do you ensure “efficiently” run government? Well, democracy (when it works) is supposed to do that. Creating a system of accountability for politicians might help. US politicians sneer at their constituents, populace, and voters, treating them like fools. Special interests’ sway over legislators is tantamount to bribery and corruption, and when you consider the scale of it, the Chinese hangman would be kept in business for quite a while.

[spdrun]

Wasn’t our top tax rate something like 80-90% from the 30s till the late 60s? If anything, taxes have been unnaturally low (especially for a “war era”) over the last 12 years, thanks to Idiot Chimp’s tax cuts and the Repugs’ steadfast refusal to roll them back while spending like drunken sailors on our military and associated parasitic “contractors.”

[no_such_reality]

There’s several reasons.

First thing we need to address is that per capita, the USA across it’s levels of Government is currently and has for the last five years been spending on par with GReat Britain, France and Germany. We haven’t taxed to that level, but per person, we’re spending the same level of Government.

Except we don’t have universal health care, SS is kind of like their pensions, but overall, we’ve been funneling our money into the Military.

When you look at Norway, firstly, their top tax rate is 48%, their GDP per capita is twice ours, with a GDP at basically $100K/person.

[livinincali]

[quote=no_such_reality]There’s several reasons.

First thing we need to address is that per capita, the USA across it’s levels of Government is currently and has for the last five years been spending on par with GReat Britain, France and Germany. We haven’t taxed to that level, but per person, we’re spending the same level of Government.

Except we don’t have universal health care, SS is kind of like their pensions, but overall, we’ve been funneling our money into the Military.

When you look at Norway, firstly, their top tax rate is 48%, their GDP per capita is twice ours, with a GDP at basically $100K/person.[/quote]

We have universal health care for 119 million people in this country (medicare and medicaid) at a cost of $940/119 = $7,899 per person on the program. Most industrialized nations provide health care for about $3,500-5,550 per capita. http://kff.org/global-indicator/health-expenditure-per-capita/

The real big problem is the total cost of providing medical care is this country. The key is figuring out how to provide medical care for less not figuring out how to get more people to help pay for the exorbitant costs.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=livinincali][quote=no_such_reality]There’s several reasons.

First thing we need to address is that per capita, the USA across it’s levels of Government is currently and has for the last five years been spending on par with GReat Britain, France and Germany. We haven’t taxed to that level, but per person, we’re spending the same level of Government.

Except we don’t have universal health care, SS is kind of like their pensions, but overall, we’ve been funneling our money into the Military.

When you look at Norway, firstly, their top tax rate is 48%, their GDP per capita is twice ours, with a GDP at basically $100K/person.[/quote]

We have universal health care for 119 million people in this country (medicare and medicaid) at a cost of $940/119 = $7,899 per person on the program. Most industrialized nations provide health care for about $3,500-5,550 per capita. http://kff.org/global-indicator/health-expenditure-per-capita/

The real big problem is the total cost of providing medical care is this country. The key is figuring out how to provide medical care for less not figuring out how to get more people to help pay for the exorbitant costs.[/quote]

Besides high costs, I believe the $7899 per person avg annual MC expense is due to the WWII Gen and the dwindling fragments of the Greatest Gen not taking care of themselves. There are only 2.72 years worth of baby boomers currently eligible for Medicare (DOBs: 1/1/46 to 10/21/48). And of course, a few thousand of these new MC eligibles have barely had a chance to sign up and have not yet been to the doctor while covered under MC.

Remember that surgeon general warnings were not on packages of cigarettes until 1966 and they were handed out like candy for free to active duty military members prior to that. And smoking was allowed in every restaurant and bar until the early nineties in most locales. Smoking was also allowed in enclosed workplaces or in designated areas of enclosed workplaces, causing the smoke to filter into the workers who didn’t smoke.

The vast majority of the US population was also ignorant of the adverse affects high cholesterol levels had on the body. And there were very few gyms available to join and work out at until the mid-eighties. Sugar-substitutes other than saccharin pills and powder were unavailable until the mid/late eighties. And many of our mothers, grandmothers and great-grandmothers also had multiple children one after another which caused them (expensive) pelvic floor problems down the line.

The above are just a few of the differences between generations which are driving the healthcare expenses of the current MC-eligible crowd.

I see boomers as using LESS healthcare (on avg) than their precedessors did because MANY boomers (incl myself) have taken the steps years or decades ago to improve their health and fitness naturally (thru diet, supplements and exercise) and have pulled away from the daily/weekly practice of the regional food cultures that they grew up with. And many boomers (incl myself) also watched multiple relatives die a prolonged, agonizing death from emphysema and COPD.

By the time Gen Y gets to MC age, it’s anybody’s guess how much healthcare they will need. A good portion of them seem to have turned into junk-food junkies from a young age … BUT they still have time to get their sh!t together and “recover” from their bad food choices and inactivity.

In my gym, the over-50 crowd is thinner and fitter overall than the under-35 crowd. Go figure …

[spdrun]

Yet smoking rates are higher and sugar-substitute use is much lower in European countries with a higher life expectancy. The keys, IMHO:
(1) Active lifestyle — a lot more people commute on foot or by bike
(2) Portion control
(3) Lower levels of stress. 50 hr work weeks combined with 3 hr/day commutes are much less common.

BTW, outside of CA, indoor smoking in restaurants and bars was allowed well into the 2000s. NY banned it only in 2003, NJ waited till 2005 or 2006 to outlaw it. It’s still legal indoors in bars in Pennyslvania.

As far as sugar substitute use, it’s not clear that most substitutes are any healthier than sugar itself, when used in moderation (since they tell the body to expect a load of sugar while not delivering, confusing the pancreas). And if anything, since a lot more sugar comes from HFCS than it did 20 years ago, we may be worse off now.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=spdrun]Yet smoking rates are higher and sugar-substitute use is much lower in European countries with a higher life expectancy. The keys, IMHO:
(1) Active lifestyle — a lot more people commute on foot or by bike
(2) Portion control
(3) Lower levels of stress. 50 hr work weeks combined with 3 hr/day commutes are much less common.

BTW, outside of CA, indoor smoking in restaurants and bars was allowed well into the 2000s. NY banned it only in 2003, NJ waited till 2005 or 2006 to outlaw it. It’s still legal indoors in bars in Pennyslvania.

As far as sugar substitute use, it’s not clear that most substitutes are any healthier than sugar itself, when used in moderation (since they tell the body to expect a load of sugar while not delivering, confusing the pancreas). And if anything, since a lot more sugar comes from HFCS than it did 20 years ago, we may be worse off now.[/quote]

spdrun, I’m unfamiliar with Europe/Eastern Europe. Is the smoking rate really higher in those countries than in the US? I wouldn’t have thunk it!

As far as sugar use vs. sugar-substitute use, I could see where Europeans would want to stick to their recipes and not substitute sugar for a substitute. And also drink plain coffee and tea with or without plain milk. And have plain biscuits and scones to go with them. Unlike Americans, most of who seem to like their hot drinks and pastries all duded up (not ME!), I see Europeans as being more of a “purist” in that regard.

I’ve used powdered Splenda in recipes that called for sugar for the last few years.

[spdrun]

Splenda is heat-stable, just don’t use Nutrasweet in baked recipes since it breaks down into toxic substances when heated.

[SD Realtor]

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/report-us-spent-37-trillion-welfare-over-last-5-years_764582.html

[no_such_reality]

80 programs and an average of $740 Billion a year not including the States portion of Medicaid at $200 Billion or including Medicare and Social Security.

[CA renter]

[quote=SD Realtor]http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/report-us-spent-37-trillion-welfare-over-last-5-years_764582.html[/quote]

As other posters have mentioned, one of the main reasons for the increased welfare expenditures is the loss of good-paying manufacturing jobs. While some of this is due to automation, millions of jobs have been lost to other countries with low/no environmental or labor protections, in just this past decade.

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/labor/news/2012/07/09/11898/5-facts-about-overseas-outsourcing/

The people who are complaining the most about welfare recipients (corporate/financial elite) are the very same people who have intentionally dismantled the job base in the U.S. And let’s not forget the billions of dollars of taxpayer subsidies that most of these companies are getting, either directly or indirectly. Funny how they never complain about that.

“About $59 billion is spent on traditional social welfare programs. $92 billion is spent on corporate subsidies. So, the government spent 50% more on corporate welfare than it did on food stamps and housing assistance in 2006.”

http://thinkbynumbers.org/government-spending/corporate-welfare/corporate-welfare-statistics-vs-social-welfare-statistics/

BTW, that corporate welfare number does NOT include govt contracts with well-connected (or not) private companies, etc. You know, stuff like this from the “small govt/no deficit” crowd:

“WASHINGTON — Built to dominate the enemy in combat, the Army’s hulking Abrams tank is proving equally hard to beat in a budget battle.

Lawmakers from both parties have devoted nearly half a billion dollars in taxpayer money over the past two years to build improved versions of the 70-ton Abrams.

But senior Army officials have said repeatedly, “No thanks.”‘

http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2013/04/ohio_budget_hawks_in_congress.html

[SD Realtor]

Abrams should have been killed long ago. Look into the reasons why it was not. Pretty easy to figure out. Hint, it was not Army officials. I understand what you are saying about big contracts. Kind of like CGI a Canadian firm being selected for the technical development of the Obamacare website…. Interesting relationships there.

[CA renter]

Right. I know it’s not the Army officials, that’s why I referred to the “small govt/no deficit” crowd…

“If there’s a home of the Abrams, it’s politically important Ohio. The nation’s only tank plant is in Lima. So it’s no coincidence that the champions for more tanks are Rep. Jim Jordan and Sen. Rob Portman, two of Capitol’s Hill most prominent deficit hawks, as well as Democratic Sen. Sherrod Brown. They said their support is rooted in protecting national security, not in pork-barrel politics.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/28/abrams-tank-congress-army_n_3173717.html

————

Many people claim that they want to cut govt spending, but only as long as it’s someone else’s govt spending that gets cut.

[CA renter]

[quote=livinincali][quote=no_such_reality]There’s several reasons.

First thing we need to address is that per capita, the USA across it’s levels of Government is currently and has for the last five years been spending on par with GReat Britain, France and Germany. We haven’t taxed to that level, but per person, we’re spending the same level of Government.

Except we don’t have universal health care, SS is kind of like their pensions, but overall, we’ve been funneling our money into the Military.

When you look at Norway, firstly, their top tax rate is 48%, their GDP per capita is twice ours, with a GDP at basically $100K/person.[/quote]

We have universal health care for 119 million people in this country (medicare and medicaid) at a cost of $940/119 = $7,899 per person on the program. Most industrialized nations provide health care for about $3,500-5,550 per capita. http://kff.org/global-indicator/health-expenditure-per-capita/

The real big problem is the total cost of providing medical care is this country. The key is figuring out how to provide medical care for less not figuring out how to get more people to help pay for the exorbitant costs.[/quote]

That’s because Medicare and Medicaid are covering our **most expensive** patients in the U.S., while other developed nations cover the sick AND the healthy (less expensive) patients.

What so many “anti-socialists” seem to miss is that we already cover the most expensive patients with publicly-funded healthcare programs (the elderly, pregnant women, infants/children, and the indigent all tend to be the most expensive patients). Taxpayers are subsidizing the healthcare industry by covering most of the expensive patients (these subsidies for the private market absolutely dwarf the problems related to the “pension crisis,” but you’ll never hear about it because the capitalist elites benefit from it).

We’ve socialized the losses by shunting the expensive patients to Medicare, Medicaid, and other publicly-funded programs; and privatized the profits by leaving the most profitable/healthy patients for the private market…as we usually do in our “capitalist” system.

[scaredyclassic]

heck yeah. it’s kind of hilarious how we pretend to be market driven. we should give up the facade and do single payer, or just let old people die and let freelance midwives deliver babies both in the privacy of the home.

one or the other, whatever you people want, but this pretend stuff is silly.

[Hobie]

[quote=Jazzman]while back, the WSJ did a feature on the Nordic model of welfare capitalism. The notion of 60% tax would freak anyone out, but how is it that the Norwegians et al seem happy with it. [/quote]

Q: How do they pay for it?
A: Drilling in the north sea.

I’d be happy too.

[spdrun]

We have plenty of natural resources as well. Not to mention, if we instituted bank secrecy laws for foreigners, we could make money off the bad guys instead of killing them.

[CDMA ENG]

[quote=no_such_reality][quote=CDMA ENG]
A lot. No one assumes a “George Jetson” future where a machine does one hundered percent of the work. It has been explained, multiple times, why there is will a huge reduction in need for physical, and some intellectual, labor.[/quote]

I think a lot of intellectual jobs, such as Software Developers, are beginning the winter of their discontent and looking at a future that manufacturing was looking at starting in the late 1970s.

One last attempt at prospective. We’ve talked oil, there’s a boatload of good paying jobs in the Dakota oil fields.

Since 2007, the Bakken Oil Formation counties have experienced explosive growth and current have 3% unemployment. Impressive, be flexible. Go where the jobs are.

Now reality. From 2007-2011, all industries in those counties added 27,954 jobs. Twenty seven thousand jobs. Overall North Dakota employment grew about 30,000 jobs since 2007. A part of the Bakken Formation is in Montana but Montana has actually lost employment since 2007 in spite of oil field work.

Why is that important? Perspective. San Diego City has 56,160 people currently unemployed looking for work. A little over twice ALL the jobs created with the oil boom in the Bakken Field.

San Diego county, has 125,860 people unemployed and looking for work. That 4.5X all the jobs, across industries created in the Bakken field boom.

Finally, in that same time period, San Diego City grew a net 40,000 people.[/quote]

Concur with the software developer remark… and would even expand that to engineering in general. I have tools now that made things that it would take me days to do mere hours…

We are all headed towards obscelences… Just some more quickly than others…

I would say “F” it and become a wine maker but more and more that is even automated… Including Napa..

CE

[ucodegen]

[quote=CDMA ENG]We are all headed towards obscelences… Just some more quickly than others…

I would say “F” it and become a wine maker but more and more that is even automated… Including Napa..

CE[/quote]… and then the Cylons decide to turn on their masters.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=jeff303][quote=bearishgurl]
America needs and will continue to need all kinds of workers, not just “creative types.” It’s not for elitest-types (or wanna-be elitest-types) living in SoCal (where fresh produce is in abundance and relatively cheap) to decide whether a midwestern diet of home-canned fruits and vegetables from a home garden, meat butchered and packaged locally or fish caught locally, milk pasteurized locally and real mashed potatoes with homemade gravy isn’t “nutritional.” Nor are they qualified to decide whether most Americans possess the “raw life enrichment experiences” or “family dynamic” necessary to develop the “raw mental horsepower” or whether they might already possess the “raw mental horsepower” to begin with.

Get up at 4:00 am 6-7 days per week to start chores on your “working farm or ranch” and tell me how much “raw mental horsepower” is needed to sustain that type of discipline, year in and year out.

Sorry, but it’s not the same thing as stopping off at Starbucks on your commute to a desk job in SoCal where you will report to a cubicle between 8 and 9 am, immediately put your flip-flopped feet on the desk and pipe up your laptop for the day in your supposedly “creative job.”[/quote]

I don’t think anyone is disparaging people who obviously work very hard in more physically-oriented jobs, or discounting their discipline or worth to society. The point is that like it or not, these jobs will gradually go away. The free market demands that profits continue to grow every quarter, and the easiest way to achieve that growth is to reduce labor costs via automation. It has been happening throughout history and will continue to do so. Whereas many farmers used to be required to tend to one farm, now a single farmer can manage a much larger land area through the use of technology. And one day, almost no farmers will even be out physically on the fields; a small number of them will just be overseeing the operations of robots harvesting the fields.

I agree with others that say there will be some sort of major upheaval, probably in my lifetime. The only hope I can see to alleviating this outcome is something like essentially free universal power (fusion or similar), or mass rollout/usage/hacking of 3D printing. For the time being, wealth will continue to flow upward at an ever increasing pace, since the already wealthy are the ones who will own the profits from increased automation.[/quote]

I disagree on a couple of your points, jeff.

First of all, jobs such as a police officer and a teacher are not going away. There are MANY jobs working with PEOPLE where a human needs to report to work and interact with PEOPLE all day. Most of these jobs are not “creative” but have procedures which have been laid out for decades.

And I don’t see where owning robots will be more economical for farms than paying the (mostly) migrant farmworkers the wages that they currently earn. Especially since humans will have to “oversee” the work of robots.

Contrary to popular belief on this forum, “wealthy” people come in all stripes, jeff. For example, “wealthy” or even “extremely wealthy” people may be those who control leases for thousands of acres of ranchland passed down through their families. “Wealthy” people also control 2-12 separate mineral rights (gas and oil) leases passed down through a family which may generate a monthly annuity for life for a dozen or more family members.

I have such relatives in both categories and can assure you that they would be considered “wealthy” or even “extremely wealthy” by the Piggs. What do they look like? They’re dressed in Levi 501’s and a flannel shirt today with a t-shirt on to strip down to if it gets too hot. They left home this morning at 7:00 am and hit the road in their 2002 dually pickup with their circa 1964 plaid coffee Thermos, a packed ice chest, gallon push-button drink cooler, safety glasses and hardhat in tow 🙂

In a lineup, you might not be able to tell them from the Walmart SNAP/EBT crowd.

They don’t have time to sit and blog with you and me because they’re busy checking on and even supervising their many “biz enterprises” and will arrive back home between 5:30 and 6:00 pm this evening to a home-cooked dinner.

And some of them are past retirement age but enjoy what they are doing.

And, to my knowledge, they never had any problems with “family dynamics” or lack of “raw life enrichment experiences.”

[no_such_reality]

.del

[Jazzman]

[quote=SD Realtor]Maybe nsr, however I tend to fall into agreement with the author.

I hope for my kids sake I am wrong but I don’t see the direction of the country changing. I think we have way to much inertia in the “you will be taken care of” direction. We have 10’s of millions who need it, and we have dug ourselves into a hole where we cannot stop providing for them. The party that provides the most will always be elected now.

I see no way out, perhaps others do.[/quote]
It is hard to argue entitlement is out of control, when many see their plight linked to large entities that received government handouts for being “evil.” If jobs reduce dependency on entitlements, then clearly we need more jobs. But jobs that pay enough to provide the incentive to work and soon, before inertia takes a hold and the culture of not working becomes deep-seated. The wealth gap may also be unwittingly pushing the entitlement agenda. In that context, reversing entitlement is difficult to navigate, so learning to live with it and accepting the costs—if equitably spread—is perhaps an answer.

[jeff303]

Perhaps a relevant TED radio hour that might be of interest to those participating in this discussion: http://www.npr.org/2013/10/16/235781665/haves-and-have-nots

[Anonymous]

What about the 50 million people that actually believe Obama created every social program in the country?

[joec]

I agree with a lot of these points. However, one point that needs to be said is that a lot of people actually want to work, but the problem is that the pay/work, etc is simply very very poor. I was watching bloomberg today and the wage gap between rich and poor is the highest it’s ever been in the history of the US. Among the industrialized nations, the US has the widest gap, even though it is common across all countries and growing as well.

The richest 1% control like over 50% of all wealth and I think it said the top 10% control like 80%+ maybe more…forget the exact %.

All that said, unless you work in hi-tech or have an awesome job, like flu says, I think it’s simply incredibly hard to actually make it big…even if your parents did very well. The youth has huge unemployment and unless you code and work in SV, most paying jobs are pretty weak.

Having worked in SV with the whole stock option thing and all that and working in different industries and now self employed, it really is different in terms of pay outside of a select few areas/professions. Most people make no where near enough to survive I think…in most normal jobs, even professional ones.

One risk is also if you get laid off or work in a field that’s slow (like someone said about architecture), you’re going to have a very very hard time finding something half decent. Maybe it’s just been my experience having been laid off, been on unemployment, etc…but unless you’ve been there, I can see why some people like some of these entitlement programs.

The main problem it’s very hard to get out. Also, woe to the engineer now who is making good money, then gets laid off with a mortgage, kids, wife, etc…

Even with savings, family might not be doing that well to help out.

It sounds radical, and I think not anytime soon, but there eventually will be more riots and more revolutionary type stuff since more and more people will be in poverty and quite upset about it.

We’ll end up like Europe with higher unemployment long term and with entitlements similar to become a ‘socialist’ country.

I believe the “best days” of the US are behind it for most Americans…sadly.

[flyer]

[quote=joec]I agree with a lot of these points. However, one point that needs to be said is that a lot of people actually want to work, but the problem is that the pay/work, etc is simply very very poor. I was watching bloomberg today and the wage gap between rich and poor is the highest it’s ever been in the history of the US. Among the industrialized nations, the US has the widest gap, even though it is common across all countries and growing as well.

The richest 1% control like over 50% of all wealth and I think it said the top 10% control like 80%+ maybe more…forget the exact %.

All that said, unless you work in hi-tech or have an awesome job, like flu says, I think it’s simply incredibly hard to actually make it big…even if your parents did very well. The youth has huge unemployment and unless you code and work in SV, most paying jobs are pretty weak.

Having worked in SV with the whole stock option thing and all that and working in different industries and now self employed, it really is different in terms of pay outside of a select few areas/professions. Most people make no where near enough to survive I think…in most normal jobs, even professional ones.

One risk is also if you get laid off or work in a field that’s slow (like someone said about architecture), you’re going to have a very very hard time finding something half decent. Maybe it’s just been my experience having been laid off, been on unemployment, etc…but unless you’ve been there, I can see why some people like some of these entitlement programs.

The main problem it’s very hard to get out. Also, woe to the engineer now who is making good money, then gets laid off with a mortgage, kids, wife, etc…

Even with savings, family might not be doing that well to help out.

It sounds radical, and I think not anytime soon, but there eventually will be more riots and more revolutionary type stuff since more and more people will be in poverty and quite upset about it.

We’ll end up like Europe with higher unemployment long term and with entitlements similar to become a ‘socialist’ country.

I believe the “best days” of the US are behind it for most Americans…sadly.[/quote]

+1 joe. It IS sad that many young people will never have the opportunity to enjoy the fantastic lives many of us who are a bit older have had. Doesn’t really matter who is to blame, the net result will still be the same.

Don’t know if I’ll see the complete unraveling of America in my lifetime. I hope not.

[FlyerInHi]

There is no unraveling of America.

Some people talk about hard work, but they themselves are entitled. They expect their world not to change so they can coast along.

The world is moving faster today. There is world-wide competition so people feel less secure. Demographics are changing.

As to the original post, how is the government going to run out of money? Debt is currently at 73% of GDP, a pretty healthy measure. And interest rates are at historic lows.

Didn’t food stamp cards recently stop working simultaneously in many states because of problems with the vendor, xerox?

[flyer]

[quote=FlyerInHi]There is no unraveling of America.

I hope you’re right, but, IMO, only time will tell. Personally, life for my family and me just seems to get better and better, and, although I would hope that would hold true for everyone, I’m aware that is not the reality.

It will be interesting to see how things evolve in the coming years.

[svelte]

[quote=FlyerInHi]There is no unraveling of America.

Some people talk about hard work, but they themselves are entitled. They expect their world not to change so they can coast along.

The world is moving faster today. There is world-wide competition so people feel less secure. Demographics are changing.
[/quote]

I think some people on here need to start reading old newspapers. From the late 1800s, early 1900s.

You know what you’ll find? Just as much of them was devoted to bad news, people doing idiot things, murders, riots, mayhem as today’s papers.

I know, I read them doing genealogy work here and there.

You’ll know what else you’ll find? There was a hatred of immigrants back then too. Only they were EUROPEAN immigrants. The Irish, the Italians, the Polish. All new influxes of people irritate the natives.

All of us tend to have rosy pictures of when we were younger…we forget the bad and remember the good. That’s probably a good thing, but it warps our perspective of how things have changed.

Chill people….the world’s gonna survive.

[SD Realtor]

Welcome back Brian. Why don’t you at least use your real name?

[SK in CV]

[quote=harvey]What about the 50 million people that actually believe Obama created every social program in the country?[/quote]

Great point. Even some that he’s (apparently?) accused of inventing, don’t exist anymore. Current unemployment benefits are shorter in most states today than at any time during the eight years prior to Obama taking office. Half as long in some states.

[bearishgurl]

I think the fear of the American poor rioting (and threatening the “haves”) is being trumped up just a bit here.

I fundamentally believe that most of those EBT/SNAP patrons of the cleaned-out Louisiana Walmart WOULD take a decent FT job if offered to them.

This little experiment was borne out of massive numbers of Hurricane Katrina victims successfully resettled in the Houston, TX area, and also in the states of NE and MN (both completely antithetical to their culture). All except the senior citizens went on to complete their job training or educations and/or take FT or PT jobs to support their families.

There wasn’t much difference, if any, in the “family dynamics” of those hurricane victims and today’s LA residents standing in line to “overcharge” their EBT cards at Walmart.

The state of LA has never had nearly enough jobs of any kind to offer their resident citizenry. Much of the state is not even buildable due its high water table and swampland. The LA residents who never left after Katrina stayed for two reasons:

1) They had a home on higher ground or a relative’s home on higher ground to move into; or

2) their damaged homes were still habitable AND they were able to get enough in insurance proceeds to repair their homes and move back in.

Even though Shreveport (where the recent EBT “shopping spree” took place) is a different area than New Orleans, the culture is the same. I’m speaking here of food, family customs and religion. It is very hard for longtime residents to just pick up and leave, especially senior citizens. This particular culture is present only in the state of LA and cannot be duplicated anywhere else.

If it’s any consolation, the mammoth Walmart corporation got stuck with the tab because they did not adhere to LA Dept of Children and Family Services rules:

Two Walmart stores in Louisiana will have to foot the bill for unauthorized purchases made by food stamp recipients who went on a wild shopping spree after a glitch in the Electronic Benefit Transfer (EBT) system gave them unlimited spending power for two hours, according to state officials.

In an ABC News report, Trey Williams, a spokesman for the Louisiana Department of Children and Family Services, said retailers who chose not to adhere to emergency procedures limiting sales up-to $50 per cardholder during an emergency would be responsible for any additional amount spent over eligible benefit balances…

http://www.christianpost.com/news/walmart-gets-stuck-with-bill-from-food-stamp-shopping-spree-customers-riot-when-ebt-cards-fail-to-work-at-miss-store-106713/

And Mississippi, where the “riots” happened due to EBT glitches, is the poorest state in the nation. Again due to the dearth of good jobs available there for its residents. If you take a lot of those residents, put them in a u-haul and relocate them, you might be surprised to see that a lot of them are gainfully employed within months.

[no_such_reality]

Didn’t you just describe family dynamic, environment and support?

[SD Realtor]

nsr stop slamming your head against the wall and the headache will go away.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=SD Realtor]nsr stop slamming your head against the wall and the headache will go away.[/quote]

SDR, sorry to hear you now have a headache but you still haven’t told us if you would prefer your late-paying out-of-state tenant apply for and collect all the aid she is qualified for so she can pay your rent in a more timely manner :=]

[no_such_reality]

This is from Mother Jones

The good job they’re referencing here is equivalent to about $37K with benefits.

You may notice down trends that started in 2000 for College educated. I suspect those lines will begin to look like high school lines over the next thirty years unless we make fundamental changes or advances. That percentage is the percentage of that group of workers. i.e. ~20% of the some college work force have good jobs.

In aggregate, the rate is about 25%.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=no_such_reality]This is from Mother Jones

The good job they’re referencing here is equivalent to about $37K with benefits.

You may notice down trends that started in 2000 for College educated. I suspect those lines will begin to look like high school lines over the next thirty years unless we make fundamental changes or advances. That percentage is the percentage of that group of workers. i.e. ~20% of the some college work force have good jobs.

In aggregate, the rate is about 25%.[/quote]

$37K annually will go a l-o-o-ong way in a lot of US markets. And with or w/o benefits, a $37K salary will qualify an individual for a small healthcare subsidy and a family for a huge healthcare subsidy to sign up on their state’s exchange.

Even $24-$27K job for ONE household member will allow a family of 2-4 to rent a 2-3 bdrm house, condo or apt (without rental assistance) in many US markets (and perhaps still qualify for SNAP/EBT). And at that income level, they can qualify for “free” healthcare.

Your Mother Jones chart doesn’t specify if the “college or more” line represents ALL persons who attended college or trade school at one point or only the college graduates.

If only 25% of the college-educated of working age have “good” jobs (jobs paying $37K + benefits?), then we, as a nation, have to ask ourselves if college is actually worth the money for the masses OR if the fault of underemployment is due to a former student’s “unemployable” major (on a case-by-case basis).

I suspect it is due to the latter, combined with a refusal to relocate for a good job.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=no_such_reality]Didn’t you just describe family dynamic, environment and support?[/quote]

If that includes good, geographically-available jobs, yes.

[bearishgurl]

They’re just not speaking up, but I don’t feel that most Piggs (as representative of Joe and Jane 6p) really believe in a “gloom and doom” scenario for the US as expressed here by some posters. Nor do I believe the country is in a downward spiral. I just think we’re in a “transition” of sorts which will bring us all to a different expectation of what it means to be a middle-class American (yes, upper middle-class included).

Over the last 15 years, especially, expectations of how a poor thru upper-middle class citizen should be able to live have gone thru the roof.

These “expectations” were and are unrealistic and unsustainable for most families.

The presence or absence of a “college education” for one or more heads of household really have nothing to do with it.

And no, I don’t have any chip on my shoulder. All my needs are taken care of and will continue to be throughout the rest of my life, whether I work part-time, full-time or not at all for stretches of time.

And I love working, btw ….

But thanks for your concern :=]

[bearishgurl]

Good points CE and I’ve got to step out now but wanted to point out that there are/will be much more retiring boomers than Gen X workers available to fill those slots … not sure about how many extra slots will spill over to Gen Y but I would think half … if the organization doesn’t go by seniority for promotions. Why? Because Gen Y are better at automated tasks than Gen X, since they’ve had access to computers all of their lives.

In comparison to boomers and Gen Y, Gen X was a smaller population.

And since America is becoming more and more of a “police state” every month, I just don’t see the lawlessness in our future as you do.

Yes, I certainly will be dead and so will many other Piggs, including you (and maybe even our children) when the sh!t will supposedly hit the fan in this country.

I don’t see this as something we have to be concerned about today.

[ucodegen]

[quote=bearishgurl]And since America is becoming more and more of a “police state” every month, I just don’t see the lawlessness in our future as you do.[/quote]And you trust the police absolutely? Police don’t get involved in illegal activities? With an increased police state, it actually gets worse for the population because there is no check/balance against police misbehavior.

[The-Shoveler]

You don’t need to replace 100% to create huge problems,

just replace 20-30% and see what happens.

[The-Shoveler]

As long as you can eat!!

Just kidding but at least it has to do with the subject.

[The-Shoveler]

Time is compressing faster than you think

[bearishgurl]

I forgot to add that our forebears drank more (100+ proof) spirits than we do.

With the proliferation of US wineries, wine has been much more popular in the past 20+ years than mixed drinks, especially in CA.

Also, my math was wrong. 2.85 years worth of boomers are now eligible for MC (and growing every day).

[Author]

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