Home › Forums › Financial Markets/Economics › Entitlement mentality
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sreeb.
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February 7, 2012 at 1:17 PM #737495February 7, 2012 at 1:18 PM #737496
CoronitaParticipant[quote=sdduuuude][quote=markmax33]Kcal – There are two types of business in America.
1. Crony Capitalism – where people get sweetheart GOV contracts, manipulate the GOV for business advanatages, etc. Haliburton is crony capitalism. The banks are crony capitalism.
2. Real Capitalism – that doesn’t prey on the taxpayer. Apple, Google, Facebook, etc are examples of real captilism. They created a product everyone wanted with ingenuity.
They should outright tax the crony capitalism companies 100% and they should leave the tax rate at 0 for the real capitalism companies. Unfortunately there is a push and pull to put everyone in these groups into the same tax bracket because they are making money. I see why the democrats and republicans are so split on this notion. The democrats see people getting rich off of BS loopholes and want those rich people to share what they effectively stole from every tax payer and the rich that made money legitametly don’t want to be taxed because they will have to kill jobs and won’t be able to compete as well at a higher tax rate.
The democratic position’s flaw is that they want to expand the GOV power which will eventually expand GOV contracts to the crony capitalism crew. This will reduce the competitveness of other businesses as regulations are added because the democrats feel they are getting ripped off and need more taxes. It’s quite a trap.I’m not defending the republicans either, just explaining why the democrat mentality is flawed.[/quote]
I think you’ve hit it on the head, there mm.
Crony capitalism and union thuggery are the same thing in a different costume.
FLU – just because those companies are improperly valued by the market doesn’t meant they aren’t born from true capitalism.[/quote]
These days they are
February 7, 2012 at 1:23 PM #737498markmax33
Guest[quote=briansd1][quote=sreeb][quote=kcal09]Sooo…now we know that Mitt plays a mini-tax [/quote]
Mitt appears to be paying $3M per year. That is a lot more than I pay.
How much should one person have to pay?
I don’t feel I get the government I want and I resent my much smaller bill.
I find it disturbing when I read that 80% of the population thinks the rich don’t pay their “fair share” while 50% of the population pays nothing at all. Lots of people who pay nothing at all think that those who do pay don’t pay enough? How is that right?
Why would Mitt even stay in the US?[/quote]
I’d be fine if Mitt left the USA. But as a US citizen he still has to pay income taxes.
50% of the population does not pay nothing. That’s a myth.
You have to look at the big picture. When payroll taxes, sales taxes, property taxes and other taxes and fees are included, the working poor pay a good proportion of their income in taxes.
Remember that the payroll tax is limited to the first $110k. If you make 100 times more than that in salary, your proportion is much lower.[/quote]
Brian,
As a Democrat, how do you feel about the concept of taxing companies higher that use lobbying and GOV manipulation to be profitable and sucks from the taxpayer VS a company that really builds something and creates value for society? Do you feel like there should be a difference?February 7, 2012 at 1:25 PM #737497briansd1
Guest[quote=flu] Meanwhile, the article that describes how 46% of americans don’t pay taxes was from huffington post, if I recall.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/28/46-percent-of-americans-e_n_886293.html
[/quote]
If you read the article, it about income taxes. It’s not about “paying nothing” which the likes of Rush Limbaugh talk about.
Work out the numbers on a spreadsheet… If family earns $30k per year, owns a very modest house, how much in total taxes do they pay (I mean taxes of all kinds, including payroll, sales, property, DMV fees, etc..) as a proportion of their income.
Now compare the percentage to someone making $20 million in capital gains.
February 7, 2012 at 1:26 PM #737499Guest[quote=flu][quote=CONCHO][quote=markmax33][quote=CONCHO][quote=markmax33]I also don’t understand why you all don’t consider a stock like Google in you logarithm or why all tech stocks are horrible and are part of a gamed system.[/quote]
What do logarithms have to do with picking stocks?[/quote]
He claimed there was a system or logarithm as to how stocks were pumped and dumped and that it was impossible for a human to work around the maniuplation of the market. I was merely asking him about his statement.[/quote]
Actually I was just trying to see if you had misspelled “algorithm” or if you didn’t understand what a logarithm is. With this post you have clarified this — you have no idea what a logarithm is. Given that you are not aware of a basic math construct that you should have learned in the 8th grade, be careful rolling with the Big Boyz when playing in your Ameritrade account. The Big Boyz did not sleep through their math classes and they have 3L33T Math Skillz.[/quote]
Maybe it was just a freudian slip. I’ll give mm the benefit of the doubt. Personally, I hope my stocks don’t appreciate logarithmically, but that’s just me. Then again, as a software enginerd, I prefer algorithms that nlogn versus n^2 :)[/quote]
Yes I meant alogrithm.
February 7, 2012 at 1:28 PM #737500Guest[quote=CONCHO][quote=markmax33][quote=CONCHO][quote=markmax33]I also don’t understand why you all don’t consider a stock like Google in you logarithm or why all tech stocks are horrible and are part of a gamed system.[/quote]
What do logarithms have to do with picking stocks?[/quote]
He claimed there was a system or logarithm as to how stocks were pumped and dumped and that it was impossible for a human to work around the maniuplation of the market. I was merely asking him about his statement.[/quote]
Actually I was just trying to see if you had misspelled “algorithm” or if you didn’t understand what a logarithm is. With this post you have clarified this — you have no idea what a logarithm is. Given that you are not aware of a basic math construct that you should have learned in the 8th grade, be careful rolling with the Big Boyz when playing in your Ameritrade account. The Big Boyz did not sleep through their math classes and they have 3L33T Math Skillz.[/quote]
Yeah yeah, I made a gramatical mistake, explain how that’s math related. You knew and know what I meant, you just tried to trap me and make me look silly.
February 7, 2012 at 1:51 PM #737501CA renter
Participant[quote=briansd1][quote=flu] Meanwhile, the article that describes how 46% of americans don’t pay taxes was from huffington post, if I recall.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/28/46-percent-of-americans-e_n_886293.html
[/quote]
If you read the article, it about income taxes. It’s not about “paying nothing” which the likes of Rush Limbaugh talk about.
Work out the numbers on a spreadsheet… If family earns $30k per year, owns a very modest house, how much in total taxes do they pay (I mean taxes of all kinds, including payroll, sales, property, DMV fees, etc..) as a proportion of their income.
Now compare the percentage to someone making $20 million in capital gains.[/quote]
Exactly. When you consider the fact that around 100% of a poor person’s income is spent within weeks, if they are paying sales taxes, property taxes (even if it’s via their landlord), all the pesky taxes and “fees” for everything, etc., I’ll bet they pay an much higher percentage of their income in **these** taxes than “rich” people do.
Perhaps if “the rich” quit off-shoring the jobs of the poorer people, they would be able to pay income taxes, too!
February 7, 2012 at 2:20 PM #737502no_such_reality
Participant“Work out the numbers on a spreadsheet… If family earns $30k per year, owns a very modest house, how much in total taxes do they pay (I mean taxes of all kinds, including payroll, sales, property, DMV fees, etc..) as a proportion of their income.
”does family mean one, two or no kids?
Let’s say two
Fed income tax $0
StAte income tax $0
FICA tax $1695
DMV taxes $200????
Property tax $1500. (assuming tax basis of $150k home)
Sales tax figure half of the remaining is bought on taxables that’s $1030That’s $4425 or 14.75%
Mitt paid 13.9%. Just for fed income
$3,000,000 and another $3,000,000 to charity.
What was his property tax on the $12,000,000 home in la Jolla?
Really $3,000,000 versus $4475 and you want to moan about their tax rate?
February 7, 2012 at 2:42 PM #737503CoronitaParticipant[quote=briansd1][quote=flu] Meanwhile, the article that describes how 46% of americans don’t pay taxes was from huffington post, if I recall.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/28/46-percent-of-americans-e_n_886293.html
[/quote]
If you read the article, it about income taxes. It’s not about “paying nothing” which the likes of Rush Limbaugh talk about.
Work out the numbers on a spreadsheet… If family earns $30k per year, owns a very modest house, how much in total taxes do they pay (I mean taxes of all kinds, including payroll, sales, property, DMV fees, etc..) as a proportion of their income.
Now compare the percentage to someone making $20 million in capital gains.[/quote]
Hey, don’t shoot the messenger here, ok? I was just pointing to where the article title says one thing and the content says the other. Huffington post I like. But that’s how things get quoted, ok?
But come on. It’s not about percentage of taxes paid. How about the absolutely number. I wanna find people coughing up $3million in taxes a year. Anyone here? Anyone?
You know.. it doesn’t matter. People in my income/asset bracket get screwed by both parties.
February 7, 2012 at 2:43 PM #737504CoronitaParticipant[quote=CA renter][quote=briansd1][quote=flu] Meanwhile, the article that describes how 46% of americans don’t pay taxes was from huffington post, if I recall.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/28/46-percent-of-americans-e_n_886293.html
[/quote]
If you read the article, it about income taxes. It’s not about “paying nothing” which the likes of Rush Limbaugh talk about.
Work out the numbers on a spreadsheet… If family earns $30k per year, owns a very modest house, how much in total taxes do they pay (I mean taxes of all kinds, including payroll, sales, property, DMV fees, etc..) as a proportion of their income.
Now compare the percentage to someone making $20 million in capital gains.[/quote]
Exactly. When you consider the fact that around 100% of a poor person’s income is spent within weeks, if they are paying sales taxes, property taxes (even if it’s via their landlord), all the pesky taxes and “fees” for everything, etc., I’ll bet they pay an much higher percentage of their income in **these** taxes than “rich” people do.
Perhaps if “the rich” quit off-shoring the jobs of the poorer people, they would be able to pay income taxes, too!
offshoring isn’t the main problem.
February 7, 2012 at 2:49 PM #737505Guestno such reality, the employer and employee payroll and social security taxes together is 15.300%. The $30,000 employee generates that percentage to the government.
Property taxes are higher than 1% most states of the Union. Consider NJ and TX.
A “tax” would include the education of the kids also, maybe community college and university tuition.
My point is that people don’t “pay nothing”. Working people pay a large percentage of the income in “taxes” and “fees” just to get by.
Fair is all relative and proportional, IMHO.
Maybe you think I implied the rich don’t pay enough, but I didn’t even say that. Regardless, using words such as “pay nothing” is disingenuous.
February 7, 2012 at 3:12 PM #737506Guest[quote=briansd1]no such reality, the employer and employee payroll and social security taxes together is 15.300%. The $30,000 employee generates that percentage to the government.
Property taxes are higher than 1% most states of the Union. Consider NJ and TX.
A “tax” would include the education of the kids also, maybe community college and university tuition.
My point is that people don’t “pay nothing”. Working people pay a large percentage of the income in “taxes” and “fees” just to get by.
Fair is all relative and proportional, IMHO.
Maybe you think I implied the rich don’t pay enough, but I didn’t even say that. Regardless, using words such as “pay nothing” is disingenuous.[/quote]
Brian,
Would you consider it fair to tax the companies/owners more that leeches from the tax payer and pays lobbyists to get rules put into place that kill their competition such as Haliburton and to tax a company that creates something that is productive for society at a lower tax rate? Do you think it fair for Apple (for example) to pay the same taxes as Haliburton, or should we tax the leeches more? This is all assuming we could come with a measure of how much a company leeches more from society.I think you feel like a group of people is getting rich by gaming the system therefore they must fund the rest of society which I agree with you on 100%.
February 7, 2012 at 3:17 PM #737507Participant[quote=flu]offshoring isn’t the main problem.[/quote]
How would you define the main problem?
February 7, 2012 at 3:22 PM #737508Participant[quote=no_such_reality]”Work out the numbers on a spreadsheet… If family earns $30k per year, owns a very modest house, how much in total taxes do they pay (I mean taxes of all kinds, including payroll, sales, property, DMV fees, etc..) as a proportion of their income.
”does family mean one, two or no kids?
Let’s say two
Fed income tax $0
StAte income tax $0
FICA tax $1695
DMV taxes $200????
Property tax $1500. (assuming tax basis of $150k home)
Sales tax figure half of the remaining is bought on taxables that’s $1030That’s $4425 or 14.75%
Mitt paid 13.9%. Just for fed income
$3,000,000 and another $3,000,000 to charity.
What was his property tax on the $12,000,000 home in la Jolla?
Really $3,000,000 versus $4475 and you want to moan about their tax rate?[/quote]
That $4,475 (taking your number) is far more precious to the poor family than the $3,000,000 is to a very wealthy person.
The majority of a poor person’s income is spent on basic necessities. Very little, if any, “disposable income” is left. Each dollar a poor person earns is very, very precious; it often means the difference between eating or not eating, having shelter or not, whether or not they have heat when it’s cold.
There is no way anyone can say that Mitt’s taxes are more burdensome to him than the taxes paid by poor people.
February 7, 2012 at 4:03 PM #737510ParticipantCAR. I get that the money is precious to the struggling families.
Everbody needs skin in the game.
The solution isn’t figuring out how to get $7,315,000 from the romneys. It isn’t screaming tax the rich and then raising taxes on any family making $250,000
The solution isn’t making prison guards multimillionaires in their pensions. Yes that’s the equivalent capital to provide their pension $2.5 -$3.5 million for the up coming retirees. That’s what it’ll take for private individual to match their pension.
No amount of taxes will solve our current problems.
We need serious reforms to government and everybody is going to need to pay more taxes.
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