China

[FlyerInHi]

Whose fault is that?

Now, as we don’t even match China at infrastructure and economic development, countries around the world are seduced by the Chinese model.
Another example: Bill Clinton travelers to Eko Atlantic, a new section of Lagos, Nigeria, to praise the development. The US in not even involved and Chinese construction companies are building major parts of the new city. New condos are starting at $800k USD. Lagos will become a mega city in the next decade. New markets, new consumers and a new middle class are being created. They will turn to China because, from their view, the USA is all talk, no action.

My cousin moved his family to Lagos to work for a major American oil company. He tells me that the Chinese presence is palpable.

[The-Shoveler]

Really? Please, Feel free to move there ASAP.

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=The-Shoveler]Really? Please, Feel free to move there ASAP.[/quote]

Yes, the oil sector is still one area where the US has leadership. But it won’t be long before the chinese catch up, not necessarily in terms of pure tech but in terms of logistics and implementation. When the Chinese take on a project they have teams that can deploy rapidly like the US military. They build almost a small town and get to work.

With this attitude, it won’t be surprising that when Nigeria becomes a top 10 economy, China will be its largest trading partner.

And when people around the world get rich, they will buy American higher education (still an area of US leadership) like they buy Gucci handbags. Education is an “export” product like anything else. Don’t think that makes our culture superior and that people yearn to be Americans. They will go where the money is and use the money to source their purchases worldwide. Economically, that’s the way it should be. Better get used to the laws of economics.

[The-Shoveler]

Good Let us know if you need help packing.

You obviously think there in “NO” future here so please,
Take your money and move to Nigeria, sounds like you think it is an up and coming place so good for you, please leave the USA.

Check in, let us know how good you have it once a year or so.

[FlyerInHi]

Really? It’s not me moving to Nigeria. It’s my cousin who moved to work for an American oil company. He’s worked in Indonesia and Texas before.

If you (and so many others) think Americans who move abroad in search of new markets for us, are somehow unpatriotic, then it’s no wonder we are where we are now.

BTW, there is plenty of future in USA and around the world. We just need to compete to earn customers all over the world and not cede any market to the Chinese. The mega metropolitans areas of the world are the markets of the future.

And actually, yes, Lagos is an up and coming area. A house there would probably outperform most areas of the US in appreciation, assuming you have the income and knowledge of the local market.

[The-Shoveler]

Well seriously I wish him well.

“not cede any market to the Chinese” I think this is the whole Idea LOL.

Anyway I do think we will get a deal at some point.

But at any point you feel China (or anywhere else) is better that the USA, Please Please Leave, I don’t think anyone will stop you.

[temeculaguy]

[quote=FlyerInHi]

Right now US diplomats are telling Europeans not to cooperate with China on development in Africa. Really? We should all be cooperating to lift people out of poverty. When Africans became richer they will remember our obstruction.[/quote]

Well at least I learned something from this thread, I didn’t know China was loaning money to poor countries. Then today I read this article that makes china look like the mafia when they loan money.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/12/chinas-loans-causing-hidden-debt-risk-to-economies.html

I know Brian has commented that he thinks CNBC is a right wing network (he’s the only one I’ve ever heard say this, it’s center to left-center by most accounts) so here’s a New York Times article from a year ago on China acting essentially as a vulture hedge fund with their loans to other countries.

China doesn’t loan money to poor countries to share goodwill and build relationships, it a vulture. Also the IMF and World Bank are concerned about China’s practices so let’s no blame US diplomats, unless you think the IMF and World Bank are also right wing organizations, and if you think that I am not sure I can convince you that the sun is hot.

[FlyerInHi]

Temecula guy, debt is a problem only if that debt cannot be serviced and the lenders demand repayment thus triggering a run on the country’s currency. There is no evidence China has done that. In fact, China quietly extended the loan repayment period for Ethiopia.

The Srilanka port is simply debt to equity swap. China wrote off the loan and now operates the port which still services the country. China is losing money on the deal but China is the villain because it actually built something.

Look at all the financial crisis is that past 50 years. They were all triggered by western banks demanding repayment in USD, or Euros (Greece).

I’m not dismissing potential future financial problems. But for now China is delivering, whereas, we the west, failed. China has a vertically integrated development model that is producing rail lines, roads, power plants, etc…. for the developing world. Until we do better, and I want us to do better, we should keep our mouth shut. If anything, China should be applauded for making lives better.

If you are the new Ethiopian middle class, you have China to thank.
https://www.cnn.com/style/article/addis-ababa-china-construction-style/index.html

[The-Shoveler]

The true bill has not come due yet.

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=The-Shoveler]The true bill has not come due yet.[/quote]

Yes. But in the mean time, there is infrastructure. What has the western development model built lately? We couldnt even rebuild Iraq and Afghanistan after we destroyed them

In Panama, our former colony whose president we kidnapped and inprisoned, China is developing the country and creating a new middle class and millionaires.

[Myriad]

what’s interesting is that Terry Gou, Foxconn founder, is running for Taiwan president under the KMT party.
He basically said the One Country Two Systems has failed and if elected would allow more HK people to emigrate to Taiwan. Yet is running for the pro China KMT party.

If China forces HK to pass the extradition law, it’s hard to see how Taiwan would not vote for a pro-independence candidate.

https://thediplomat.com/2019/06/hong-kong-protests-the-view-from-taiwan/

[FlyerInHi]

To me the HK extradition law is a distinction without a difference. It’s political.

China is a unitary State where power is devolved from the central government to the regions at the pleasure of the state. Even in a federal system, the states don’t have a choice but to turn over criminals to the federal government.

States have the power to preempt local laws. For example red states passed laws to undo local minimum wage laws. The Chinese legislature in Beijing can legally do whatever it wants to HK.

[temeculaguy]

Brian, I know the NYT article was long but you should read it all. It lays out a pretty good case of how and why China did it, and helping a poor country wasn’t part of it. It knew the port would fail and knew they wouldn’t pay back the loan. Sri Lanka also didn’t need a port there, it’s a bad location and the main port still had room to grow. Some of the port loans were diverted to keep the president in office that they had in their pocket. Now China has a strategically located naval base, which was the plan all along. I hope it works out for Ethiopia, but more than likely China’s actual motive might be something different. If it’s not then we won’t need the red cross, China is the new charity here to save everyone. Yay!!

[Myriad]

[quote=FlyerInHi]To me the HK extradition law is a distinction without a difference. It’s political.

…
The Chinese legislature in Beijing can legally do whatever it wants to HK.[/quote]

Technically that’s not true per the HK Basic Law.
https://www.basiclaw.gov.hk/en/basiclawtext/
Article 8, 11, and 18 address this
Article 18 “The laws in force in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall be this Law, the laws previously in force in Hong Kong as provided for in Article 8 of this Law, and the laws enacted by the legislature of the Region.
National laws shall not be applied in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region except for those listed in Annex III to this Law. The laws listed therein shall be applied locally by way of promulgation or legislation by the Region.”

China can do what they want because they have an economic stranglehold on the city and government.

One Country Two Systems is dead, and with it, the so called peaceful reunification with Taiwan. If there is any reunification it will be because it was forced too.

[FlyerInHi]

Temecula guy. I read the NYT everyday. I miss few articles.
Of course, China has ulterior motives, just like we do. And of course, there is corruption. But in the end there is a port.

In contrast, what about US reconstruction dollars in Afghanistan? We had corrupt afghan and US officials also but no infrastructure to speak of.

China is not a charity like the Red Cross. But they do build infrastructure and businesses that lift people out of poverty. Charity is not the main motivation — money and power are. I would love for the US to do better than China. How about building a new subway system in Tijuana? The Chinese might get there before us.

[Author]

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