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zk
Participant[quote=FlyerInHi]Some sociology is enabling Trump.
Who did the enabling and what do we do with the ideology and the people?
Don’t we all have the responsibility to destroy such thinking?[/quote]Destroy such thinking? No such thing as destroying a type of thinking.
Participant[quote=flu-redux]
His strongest supporters are beyond any rational thought proccess and beyond thinking as a rational human. Its all driven by emotion, anger, hate, frustration.You cannot explain, rationalize, or persuade these folks …
[/quote]
You’re right, flu. Never mind my question, bg.
Participant[quote=flu]
What’s more surprising it took for this view on women for people to be so shocked and disgusted about Trump. What about all the anti-latino, anti-muslim, anti-foreign rhetoric? [/quote]I totally agree with this. But the xenophobia you mention isn’t even the biggest reason for people to have been shocked and disgusted about trump long before his latest comments.
In addition to the xenophobia and the misogyny, there are all these shocking and disgusting things:
His wanting nuclear weapons to proliferate.
His insistence that the military will follow illegal orders if he gives them.
His threats not to honor our NATO obligations.
His profound ignorance of foreign affairs (“Putin won’t go into Ukraine,” didn’t know what the nuclear triad is).
His desire to commit war crimes (killing terrorists’ families).
His threats not to pay our debts in full.
His birtherism.
His encouragement of Russian hacking.
His encouragement of violence against protesters and against Clinton.
His constant lying of a type and on a scale not seen in any previous presidential candidate (nor in most humans).
Each of these should cause shock and disgust. Put together, they’re so horrific that to not be shocked and disgusted by them indicates to me willful ignorance (or, more likely, a charade, as I explain in the last paragraph). And they don’t even include smaller reasons, many of them quite large, such as his completely unrealistic deportation force/wall ideas, his fascist tendencies, his claim that America is in a death spiral, his climate change denial, his refusal to release his tax returns, his business failures and his stiffing of thousands of workers, his lack of detailed policies, his draft dodging, his scam “university,” his abuse of his foundation, his desire to police speech, his claim that Obama founded ISIS, his frequently incoherent speech and general lack of intellect and knowledge, his refusal to admit/learn from/apologize for his mistakes, his demagoguery, his desire to abolish the Geneva Convention, and his bullying temperament.
And none of that even includes what is, in my opinion, his biggest, most dangerous flaw:
He can’t take an insult. He attacks anyone who says anything marginally negative about him. How is that going to work? The American president (every American president) is constantly being told his ideas and actions are bad ideas and actions. By citizens, by the news media, by foreign leaders, by other political parties, by people in his own party. By senators, congressmen, governors. Basically by everybody. Donald Trump, if elected president, will have to (because that’s who he is) attack all the people who say bad things about him. How is that going to work? A foreign leader says something negative about a Trump proposal or action. Trump attacks that leader. That leader condemns Trump’s attack. Trump gets angry about that and attacks again. Etc. How is that going to work? How is it going to work to give the nuclear codes to a thin-skinned, ill-tempered, petulant, foolish, ignorant, vindictive, disturbed child?
To be more disturbed by his “grab ‘em by the pussy” comment, vile as it is, than by pretty much everything else about trump, is ridiculous.
But, in a way, it makes sense. Because, in truth, the people who are currently and suddenly expressing shock and disgust aren’t actually suddenly shocked and disgusted. They’ve been shocked and disgusted all along. But, as usual, their concern hasn’t been the governing of this country. It’s been their desire to stay in power. And, before, they thought that Trump could win, so they pretended not to be shocked and disgusted, and they supported him. Now that it looks like he can’t win, they’re suddenly shocked and disgusted. And they claim that their shock and disgust is not about the fact that a Trump presidency would be (to paraphrase his “Art of the Deal” ghostwriter) a mortal danger to humanity . But about the “grab ‘em by the pussy” comment.
Are you fucking kidding me?
ParticipantI’m paraphrasing:
[quote=bearishgurl]
Bill Clinton blah blah blah
[/quote]
Ok, but what do you think about all of Trump’s massive, dangerous shortcomings, as outlined in my last post? How do you defend voting for someone with all those very serious problems?
Participant[quote=flu-redux]Besides, a pence versus Hillary. Pence definitely won’t win.[/quote]
I hope you’re right. I don’t know what the rules are, but, if possible, the republicans would do well to make the switch just days (or less) before the election. This would deprive the Clinton machine the time necessary to sufficiently spread the word about the vile positions that Pence holds.
edit:
I guess early voting would screw that plan, huh?
Yeah, I think you’re right, flu.
Participant[quote=flu]Zk,
Trump said it: “zero chance he will quit”….No worries about pence.[/quote]
Well, Trump says a lot of things. But I hope you’re right.
It wouldn’t surprise me if Trump, come early November, sees he can’t win and has to (in his mind) choose between the humiliation of losing and the indignity of quitting.
I would guess, from what I’ve seen of trump, that he would choose indignity over humiliation every time. That’s why I’m worried.
There’s nothing that scares Trump more, it seems to me, than being a loser. I think he’ll avoid that at all costs. The question is: what would be easier for trump? Making some excuse to quit and convincing himself he would’ve won…Or losing and convincing himself the election was rigged.
ParticipantWorst case scenario (assuming Trump can’t win):
Trump quits the race. GOP puts Pence at the top of the ticket. Pence, supported by an aging, dying band of religious white people plus those bamboozled by the right-wing noise machine into thinking Clinton is the devil, is elected. Pence, who is frighteningly socially conservative, puts a few like-minded judges on the supreme court. America, the vast majority of whose younger voters are very socially liberal, suffers the influence of those aged voters for decades after they’re dead.
Participant[quote=njtosd]
Why would I want to “get [him]” then?
[/quote]I didn’t say you would want to get him. I said you would deserve him. There’s a difference.
[quote=njtosd]
It seems like you are angry that anyone criticizes this woman
[/quote]Jesus, are you serious? Read what I wrote again. I said, “They have no fire to show you, so they use innuendo and half-truth to create the illusion of smoke, and you say there must be fire.” And you take that to mean I’m angry that anyone criticizes her? Clearly, to anyone with any reading skills, I’m angry that people manipulate people like you into believing something about her that is not true.
[quote=njtosd]
– or you are 13 and have to believe that people are either GOOD or BAD.
[/quote]
That would make you feel better, wouldn’t it? Because that way it wouldn’t be you that doesn’t really understand what’s happening. And that’s probably why you misread what I write and come to such faulty conclusions.
[quote=njtosd]
I’ll probably vote for her – but I’ll have to hold my nose.[/quote]While she’s not perfect, most of what you smell is bullshit.
Participant[quote=njtosd][quote=zk][quote=njtosd]
Both the Washington Post and the NYT, usually very pro Dem
[/quote]
and
[quote=njtosd]
But I don’t trust them – there’s too much smoke for there to be no fire at all, [/quote]Wow. Here is the right-wing noise machine working its magic.
They tell you over and over again that the msm is “very pro dem.” So you believe it.
They have no fire to show you, so they use innuendo and half-truth to create the illusion of smoke, and you say there must be fire.
If you get trump, you deserve him.[/quote]
Have you read anything that I’ve written other than what you’ve quoted? I’m not a Trump supporter.[/quote]
I have read what you’ve written, and I didn’t say you were a Trump supporter. You don’t have to be a Trump supporter. You just have to fall for the right-wing noise machine BS and not vote for Clinton.
October 5, 2016 at 5:56 AM in reply to: OT: Battle Ground Zero: Murrieta: Invasion of America #801832Participant[quote=CA renter]
That’s because you’re looking at it from a superficial, one-dimensional perspective. If you consider all of the variables involved, you’ll see that, in general, these people are more worried about their economic, political, and social survival than their religion.[/quote]
What is “superficial” (and short-sighted) is a person who actually believes in god being more concerned about anything than what their god says they should do.
“Yeah, I know I might spend eternity in hell for this, but I don’t care what Jesus said because I need a few extra bucks, I want this particular asshole in office, and I don’t want to be a pariah.” Genius.
Participant[quote=FlyerInHi]
Seriously here, do you find that you are the one who is diplomatic so not to upset your Republican friends when it comes to politics and current events?
[/quote]
Surprisingly (to you, anyway, knowing only that they are Trump supporters but not knowing them), they are as diplomatic about it as I am. It generally doesn’t get discussed. In conversation, one or two of them will occasionally skirt politics, but when I steer the conversation away, they go with it. They don’t say they think it’s idiotic for me to vote for Clinton, even though they probably think it. Just like I don’t say I think it’s idiotic for them to vote for Trump, even though I think it.
Participant[quote=njtosd]
Both the Washington Post and the NYT, usually very pro Dem
[/quote]
and
[quote=njtosd]
But I don’t trust them – there’s too much smoke for there to be no fire at all, [/quote]Wow. Here is the right-wing noise machine working its magic.
They tell you over and over again that the msm is “very pro dem.” So you believe it.
They have no fire to show you, so they use innuendo and half-truth to create the illusion of smoke, and you say there must be fire.
If you get trump, you deserve him.
Participant[quote=svelte]
I guess I gave up on a large part of the public being able to do logical reasoning in an acceptable manner when I realized over half the population believed there is an all-knowing being in the sky who controls everything. If they’ll believe that, they’ll believe anything. Believing what Trump says is small potatoes compared to the Bible.[/quote]
Yeah, there is that. I’ve kind of dealt with that the same way. It’s human nature that most people will believe in a god of some sort.
I might’ve mentioned this here previously, but I read the other day some guy said, “the human brain didn’t evolve to ascertain the truth. It evolved to survive.” That makes a lot of sense and explains a lot of things. But it seems to me we should be able to use reason, science, logic, etc. to ascertain something closer to the truth than what our instincts tell us.
Participant[quote=FlyerInHi]ZK, I think people who even consider voting for Trump are hopeless.
We are listing the reasons not to vote for Trump here for fun, but I don’t think those people can be educated. I believe nativist xenophobia is mainly what is driving the support for Trump, the other stuff doesn’t matter.Don’t you think politics this year will cause a rift between friends and family? Thankfully I don’t have family voting for Trump. But I have totally lost respect for some friends. I don’t care to have friends who are Trump supporters. They say they want to tell it like it is, but they are so thin-skinned and get upset so easily.. So stupid… don’t even understand the basic of tax writeoffs giving the filer a savings of deduction times the tax rate.[/quote]
I must admit I’m struggling not to lose respect for some friends who are trump voters. I knew they were voting for Bush, and I thought, well, we’ll agree to disagree. I’ve thought Bush was an idiot since before 2000, but I could, with some effort, see things from their perspective. But it’s very hard for me to see trump from their perspective and not think that it’s a willfully ignorant perspective.
Sure, they’ve been manipulated for decades by fox et al. But even despite that, surely they can see that trump is a disaster waiting to happen. Right? How could they not see that?
Maybe they can see now that they’ve been bamboozled all these years. Maybe because trump is sooo bad, but the right wing noise machine is still painting him as good, maybe the contrast between reality and right-wing “news” is finally so massive that even they at last can see it. But they don’t want to admit it to themselves, so now they’re just sliding down the rapids toward disaster without even putting up a fight. “We’re not giving up now!” I don’t know. Just a theory. I really don’t understand it.
In any case, while I’m struggling to maintain respect, I’m succeeding. I’m not losing any friends over it. Think about this: Whatever trump’s appeal is, it appeals to over 40% of registered voters, so therefore probably at least that percentage of adult Americans. So you can’t really say that a friend who is a trump voter is flawed to a reject-them-as-a-friend degree without saying that same thing about more than 40% of people. The point I’m struggling to make is that whatever his appeal is, it appeals to something basic in human nature. Trump voters are human. Whatever their flaws are are flaws in human nature in general. It’s not like, say, being a true, diagnosable narcissist. A narcissist would have flaws that go beyond basic human nature. A severe narcissist is definitely, in my opinion, flawed to a reject-them-as-a-friend degree. But a guy who is drawn to somebody, no matter how outrageously bad, that over 40% of the population is drawn to? Whatever his flaw is has to be a basic flaw in human nature. And you can’t really blame a guy for that.
I’m honestly not sure if that last paragraph makes any sense. (And it certainly could’ve been written better, but I’m in a hurry.) But I like my friends, and that’s all I’ve got.
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