[yojimbo]

I suppose I’m confused. Or perhaps the argument is so simplistic it’s beyond comprehension. Actually, the old class warfare arguments are about as appealing as the stuff that drops out of my dogs butt when he squats on the lawn.

So, the guys that started Microsoft, eBay, Google Cisco, Qualcomm etc. have not helped society through the creation of jobs? Are they not all filthy rich? Does not the amount they pay to employees in their companies FAR outweigh what they pay in taxes? How about the overall amount of utility that society derives from using their services or products?

A hypothetical question: If you asked the employees at Google if they would prefer that Larry Page and Sergey Brin pay 0 taxes for the rest of their life OR we shut down Google permanently what would be their answer?

Same question for eBay, Amazon, Cisco, Microsoft etc.

To say the rich do nothing for the working class is patently absurd and borders upon kindergarten reasoning heavily tainted with jealousy and envy. You’re all entitled to your opinions but from my perspective it is nothing but slop.

I don’t want government determining what my minimum wage will be. Nor do I want them determining my level of health care. Nor am I rich. To me, anyone that craves that amount of outside control over their lives has some sort of disorder and probably needs psychological counseling.

[yojimbo]

I suppose I’m confused. Or perhaps the argument is so simplistic it’s beyond comprehension. Actually, the old class warfare arguments are about as appealing as the stuff that drops out of my dogs butt when he squats on the lawn.

So, the guys that started Microsoft, eBay, Google Cisco, Qualcomm etc. have not helped society through the creation of jobs? Are they not all filthy rich? Does not the amount they pay to employees in their companies FAR outweigh what they pay in taxes? How about the overall amount of utility that society derives from using their services or products?

A hypothetical question: If you asked the employees at Google if they would prefer that Larry Page and Sergey Brin pay 0 taxes for the rest of their life OR we shut down Google permanently what would be their answer?

Same question for eBay, Amazon, Cisco, Microsoft etc.

To say the rich do nothing for the working class is patently absurd and borders upon kindergarten reasoning heavily tainted with jealousy and envy. You’re all entitled to your opinions but from my perspective it is nothing but slop.

I don’t want government determining what my minimum wage will be. Nor do I want them determining my level of health care. Nor am I rich. To me, anyone that craves that amount of outside control over their lives has some sort of disorder and probably needs psychological counseling.

[yojimbo]

I place 100% of the blame on the people.

100%

You can blame the “leaders” but you have a choice to follow a leader or not to.

You can blame politicians but who elects the politicians? Do not play the game of moral equivalency between the two parties.

You can blame “predatory lending” but who walks into the bank to get a loan?

You can blame greedy corp’s and CEO’s but who is feeding them the $ to fuel their greed?

All I’ve seen for the last 20 years has been a general public dead set on “acquiring” everything they perceive others as having whether they be fictional tv characters, blinged up celebrities, or their neighbors that just got that Escalade and tropical pool installed.

Nearly every single home purchase I look at shows multiple re-finances over the last 5 or 6 years with equity being pulled out every single time. For what? I guess it takes a lot of $ to keep up with the Jone’s these days.

This society succumbing to the marketing blitzkrieg through tv, music, celebs,neighbors, news, etc. is pathetic and it is our own fault for believing all the slop that is fed to us as reality. How many shows sprang up hyping how to get rich flipping property in the last 5 years? Some of the late night ads regarding real estate wealth were so stupid it was laughable yet those advertisers made money, and lots of it, catering to people who had the need to become instantaneously rich in the easiest possible manner.

So, I don’t blame politicians or CEO’s. They are just like everyone else except that they operate on a larger scale. If a corrupt janitor works his way up to the CEO position he will be a corrupt CEO.

I know many on this board hold themselves responsible for their actions and I am grateful that there are still some who value that principle. Unfortunately it is a dwindling minority.

In my opinion if you want to place blame on all of this mess, and the myriad others that are going to follow, quit engaging in kindergarten-like arguments about Bush and the Democrats or Republicans and go find yourself a mirror.

[yojimbo]

I place 100% of the blame on the people.

100%

You can blame the “leaders” but you have a choice to follow a leader or not to.

You can blame politicians but who elects the politicians? Do not play the game of moral equivalency between the two parties.

You can blame “predatory lending” but who walks into the bank to get a loan?

You can blame greedy corp’s and CEO’s but who is feeding them the $ to fuel their greed?

All I’ve seen for the last 20 years has been a general public dead set on “acquiring” everything they perceive others as having whether they be fictional tv characters, blinged up celebrities, or their neighbors that just got that Escalade and tropical pool installed.

Nearly every single home purchase I look at shows multiple re-finances over the last 5 or 6 years with equity being pulled out every single time. For what? I guess it takes a lot of $ to keep up with the Jone’s these days.

This society succumbing to the marketing blitzkrieg through tv, music, celebs,neighbors, news, etc. is pathetic and it is our own fault for believing all the slop that is fed to us as reality. How many shows sprang up hyping how to get rich flipping property in the last 5 years? Some of the late night ads regarding real estate wealth were so stupid it was laughable yet those advertisers made money, and lots of it, catering to people who had the need to become instantaneously rich in the easiest possible manner.

So, I don’t blame politicians or CEO’s. They are just like everyone else except that they operate on a larger scale. If a corrupt janitor works his way up to the CEO position he will be a corrupt CEO.

I know many on this board hold themselves responsible for their actions and I am grateful that there are still some who value that principle. Unfortunately it is a dwindling minority.

In my opinion if you want to place blame on all of this mess, and the myriad others that are going to follow, quit engaging in kindergarten-like arguments about Bush and the Democrats or Republicans and go find yourself a mirror.

[yojimbo]

I place 100% of the blame on the people.

100%

You can blame the “leaders” but you have a choice to follow a leader or not to.

You can blame politicians but who elects the politicians? Do not play the game of moral equivalency between the two parties.

You can blame “predatory lending” but who walks into the bank to get a loan?

You can blame greedy corp’s and CEO’s but who is feeding them the $ to fuel their greed?

All I’ve seen for the last 20 years has been a general public dead set on “acquiring” everything they perceive others as having whether they be fictional tv characters, blinged up celebrities, or their neighbors that just got that Escalade and tropical pool installed.

Nearly every single home purchase I look at shows multiple re-finances over the last 5 or 6 years with equity being pulled out every single time. For what? I guess it takes a lot of $ to keep up with the Jone’s these days.

This society succumbing to the marketing blitzkrieg through tv, music, celebs,neighbors, news, etc. is pathetic and it is our own fault for believing all the slop that is fed to us as reality. How many shows sprang up hyping how to get rich flipping property in the last 5 years? Some of the late night ads regarding real estate wealth were so stupid it was laughable yet those advertisers made money, and lots of it, catering to people who had the need to become instantaneously rich in the easiest possible manner.

So, I don’t blame politicians or CEO’s. They are just like everyone else except that they operate on a larger scale. If a corrupt janitor works his way up to the CEO position he will be a corrupt CEO.

I know many on this board hold themselves responsible for their actions and I am grateful that there are still some who value that principle. Unfortunately it is a dwindling minority.

In my opinion if you want to place blame on all of this mess, and the myriad others that are going to follow, quit engaging in kindergarten-like arguments about Bush and the Democrats or Republicans and go find yourself a mirror.

[yojimbo]

I place 100% of the blame on the people.

100%

You can blame the “leaders” but you have a choice to follow a leader or not to.

You can blame politicians but who elects the politicians? Do not play the game of moral equivalency between the two parties.

You can blame “predatory lending” but who walks into the bank to get a loan?

You can blame greedy corp’s and CEO’s but who is feeding them the $ to fuel their greed?

All I’ve seen for the last 20 years has been a general public dead set on “acquiring” everything they perceive others as having whether they be fictional tv characters, blinged up celebrities, or their neighbors that just got that Escalade and tropical pool installed.

Nearly every single home purchase I look at shows multiple re-finances over the last 5 or 6 years with equity being pulled out every single time. For what? I guess it takes a lot of $ to keep up with the Jone’s these days.

This society succumbing to the marketing blitzkrieg through tv, music, celebs,neighbors, news, etc. is pathetic and it is our own fault for believing all the slop that is fed to us as reality. How many shows sprang up hyping how to get rich flipping property in the last 5 years? Some of the late night ads regarding real estate wealth were so stupid it was laughable yet those advertisers made money, and lots of it, catering to people who had the need to become instantaneously rich in the easiest possible manner.

So, I don’t blame politicians or CEO’s. They are just like everyone else except that they operate on a larger scale. If a corrupt janitor works his way up to the CEO position he will be a corrupt CEO.

I know many on this board hold themselves responsible for their actions and I am grateful that there are still some who value that principle. Unfortunately it is a dwindling minority.

In my opinion if you want to place blame on all of this mess, and the myriad others that are going to follow, quit engaging in kindergarten-like arguments about Bush and the Democrats or Republicans and go find yourself a mirror.

[yojimbo]

I place 100% of the blame on the people.

100%

You can blame the “leaders” but you have a choice to follow a leader or not to.

You can blame politicians but who elects the politicians? Do not play the game of moral equivalency between the two parties.

You can blame “predatory lending” but who walks into the bank to get a loan?

You can blame greedy corp’s and CEO’s but who is feeding them the $ to fuel their greed?

All I’ve seen for the last 20 years has been a general public dead set on “acquiring” everything they perceive others as having whether they be fictional tv characters, blinged up celebrities, or their neighbors that just got that Escalade and tropical pool installed.

Nearly every single home purchase I look at shows multiple re-finances over the last 5 or 6 years with equity being pulled out every single time. For what? I guess it takes a lot of $ to keep up with the Jone’s these days.

This society succumbing to the marketing blitzkrieg through tv, music, celebs,neighbors, news, etc. is pathetic and it is our own fault for believing all the slop that is fed to us as reality. How many shows sprang up hyping how to get rich flipping property in the last 5 years? Some of the late night ads regarding real estate wealth were so stupid it was laughable yet those advertisers made money, and lots of it, catering to people who had the need to become instantaneously rich in the easiest possible manner.

So, I don’t blame politicians or CEO’s. They are just like everyone else except that they operate on a larger scale. If a corrupt janitor works his way up to the CEO position he will be a corrupt CEO.

I know many on this board hold themselves responsible for their actions and I am grateful that there are still some who value that principle. Unfortunately it is a dwindling minority.

In my opinion if you want to place blame on all of this mess, and the myriad others that are going to follow, quit engaging in kindergarten-like arguments about Bush and the Democrats or Republicans and go find yourself a mirror.

[yojimbo]

It may not be exactly the same but the end results are pretty darn close.

[yojimbo]

It may not be exactly the same but the end results are pretty darn close.

[yojimbo]

It may not be exactly the same but the end results are pretty darn close.

[yojimbo]

It may not be exactly the same but the end results are pretty darn close.

[yojimbo]

It may not be exactly the same but the end results are pretty darn close.

[yojimbo]

While I disagree with FLU at times, this time I totally agree. I believe the fiscally responsible citizen is now a minority. Perhaps even a small one.

While I do believe that there was (is) greed and fraud at the top levels of the banking, finance and real estate related industries as well as incompetence at all levels of the political structure (nothing new there), what bothers me more is the level of fraud at the borrower’s level.

Nearly every property I look up on the MLS has been refinanced multiple times over the last five years and large amounts of equity have been extracted and, of course, spent. This did not occur on a minority of homes but rather on a large majority of homes. As all of us here know, this allowed those borrowers to live a lifestyle they would otherwise not be able to enjoy while the fiscally responsible people watched on the sidelines wondering when the shoe would drop. Well, it has dropped but unfortunately it has dropped on those who have been responsible and conservative over the last decade. Their neighbors will walk away from their mortgage debt but most likely keep all their toys and other remnants of the opulent lifestyle and move down the street to rent another home. Our politicians have made sure that some of them will not have to pay income tax on their debt relief so their lifestyle over the last few years and accumulated material goods will be essentially free.

Perhaps it’s not rational but for some reason that bothers me a lot more than some CEO walking away with $16 million after running a company into the ground. Maybe it’s because I can see it happening all around me whereas the world of CEO’s et al is far removed from my reality.
I somewhat expect some CEO’s to be greedy, incompetent and dismissive of the little guy but to have my neighbors flaunting their Escalades, giant plasma TV’s, Hawaiian vacations etc. in my face day after day grates upon me after a while. It almost cause me to refinance my own property and by some “stuff” but in the end I was rational and decided not to. Perhaps that was the wrong decision for it appears as though I am going to pay for it all anyway and, in the end, will have gotten nothing from it.

[yojimbo]

While I disagree with FLU at times, this time I totally agree. I believe the fiscally responsible citizen is now a minority. Perhaps even a small one.

While I do believe that there was (is) greed and fraud at the top levels of the banking, finance and real estate related industries as well as incompetence at all levels of the political structure (nothing new there), what bothers me more is the level of fraud at the borrower’s level.

Nearly every property I look up on the MLS has been refinanced multiple times over the last five years and large amounts of equity have been extracted and, of course, spent. This did not occur on a minority of homes but rather on a large majority of homes. As all of us here know, this allowed those borrowers to live a lifestyle they would otherwise not be able to enjoy while the fiscally responsible people watched on the sidelines wondering when the shoe would drop. Well, it has dropped but unfortunately it has dropped on those who have been responsible and conservative over the last decade. Their neighbors will walk away from their mortgage debt but most likely keep all their toys and other remnants of the opulent lifestyle and move down the street to rent another home. Our politicians have made sure that some of them will not have to pay income tax on their debt relief so their lifestyle over the last few years and accumulated material goods will be essentially free.

Perhaps it’s not rational but for some reason that bothers me a lot more than some CEO walking away with $16 million after running a company into the ground. Maybe it’s because I can see it happening all around me whereas the world of CEO’s et al is far removed from my reality.
I somewhat expect some CEO’s to be greedy, incompetent and dismissive of the little guy but to have my neighbors flaunting their Escalades, giant plasma TV’s, Hawaiian vacations etc. in my face day after day grates upon me after a while. It almost cause me to refinance my own property and by some “stuff” but in the end I was rational and decided not to. Perhaps that was the wrong decision for it appears as though I am going to pay for it all anyway and, in the end, will have gotten nothing from it.

[yojimbo]

While I disagree with FLU at times, this time I totally agree. I believe the fiscally responsible citizen is now a minority. Perhaps even a small one.

While I do believe that there was (is) greed and fraud at the top levels of the banking, finance and real estate related industries as well as incompetence at all levels of the political structure (nothing new there), what bothers me more is the level of fraud at the borrower’s level.

Nearly every property I look up on the MLS has been refinanced multiple times over the last five years and large amounts of equity have been extracted and, of course, spent. This did not occur on a minority of homes but rather on a large majority of homes. As all of us here know, this allowed those borrowers to live a lifestyle they would otherwise not be able to enjoy while the fiscally responsible people watched on the sidelines wondering when the shoe would drop. Well, it has dropped but unfortunately it has dropped on those who have been responsible and conservative over the last decade. Their neighbors will walk away from their mortgage debt but most likely keep all their toys and other remnants of the opulent lifestyle and move down the street to rent another home. Our politicians have made sure that some of them will not have to pay income tax on their debt relief so their lifestyle over the last few years and accumulated material goods will be essentially free.

Perhaps it’s not rational but for some reason that bothers me a lot more than some CEO walking away with $16 million after running a company into the ground. Maybe it’s because I can see it happening all around me whereas the world of CEO’s et al is far removed from my reality.
I somewhat expect some CEO’s to be greedy, incompetent and dismissive of the little guy but to have my neighbors flaunting their Escalades, giant plasma TV’s, Hawaiian vacations etc. in my face day after day grates upon me after a while. It almost cause me to refinance my own property and by some “stuff” but in the end I was rational and decided not to. Perhaps that was the wrong decision for it appears as though I am going to pay for it all anyway and, in the end, will have gotten nothing from it.

[Author]

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