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XBoxBoy
ParticipantMore evidence that bidding wars and rising prices isn’t unique to NCC:
XBoxBoy
Participant[quote=an][quote=Coronita]
Actually for our interview process, we offer a choice.1. Take home assignment
or
2. Answer programming questions on an whiteboard in front of engineers[/quote]
You’d be surprise at how many time I get people who say they have 10-15 years of experience who can’t reverse a string. [/quote]I don’t find that surprising. I can’t say in my 35 years of working as a programmer I’ve ever had to reverse a string.
While I don’t know the details of the questions an asks or the tests Coronita sends home, I’d point out that in general tests and their questions turn out to be horrible predictors of programmer ability. Personally, I try to go with interview questions like, “Tell me about the toughest bug you ever had to solve? How did you go about solving it?” or, “What was the biggest challenge you faced working at your last job?” or “Of all the people you’ve worked with who was the person you learned the most from, and what did you learn?”
If I want to know about thought processes I often simply ask, “When asked to implement a new feature, what process do you like to follow?” (And btw, that last question is a trick question. The candidate who answers with the importance of fully designing before beginning to code is someone who likes to overdesign their stuff.)
Lastly, I like to see if a candidate can tell me a story, or a step by step procedure. They might have already told me a story with my earlier questions. And the reason that I think that’s important is that despite all the people that say “programming is math” I’ve found it is more like writing a novel. You have a story (what the program does) you have characters (objects in code) that must interact (ahh, the code that binds it all together) and good code is a process of constant editing, editing and more editing.
The bottom line to me isn’t whether the candidate has the ability to do some simple coding, (or more often than not, if they’ve reviewed a bunch of questions on sites that list the questions likely found on a programming exam) the question is can they contribute to a project with thousands of lines of code without creating a tangled mess. So, I try to focus my questions on figuring out how they’ll do with that.
Just my two cents though…
XBoxBoy
Participant[quote=sdrealtor]
Cliff notes version. Don’t believe the anecdotes of people actually participating in the market, believe the Permabear ‘s anecdotes who’s been sitting on the sideline and using his own words “taking it in the rear extra hard”[/quote]
I’m not believing either version until someone puts up real data. (I’m also not saying either is wrong without data to disprove one side or the other. I’m just asking if there is real data. And btw, that question hardly seems like justification for the two of you to piss on each other. But I guess to each his own.)
XBoxBoy
Participant[quote=Coronita][quote=deadzone]Yet amazingly with so many folks supposedly leaving CA rent and prices in CA are also going up as much or more.[/quote]
We’ve gone over this. Most of the people leaving the state are the lower income people who can afford to stay. Higher net worth/income people still move here.
and not all of CA is ridiculously priced..[/quote]
Is there data to support the argument that the people leaving the state are lower income or is that something we just tell ourselves? I’m not saying it’s not true, I’m just wondering if it is supported by the data.
(Worth mentioning, I’ve seen data that says lower income people are more likely to move than higher income people, but that’s not the same as arguing that the pool of people in CA is changing because the lower income people are leaving and higher income people are moving here.)
XBoxBoy
Participant[quote=sdrealtor]Hard to argue that buying a home around 2009 to 2012 was not the opportunity of lifetime looking at this.[/quote]
Yup, absolutely agree. If you look at the chart above showing deviation you find it agrees with your housing economist. 1997 to 2000 was a good time, and then again 2010 to 2013 was an even slightly better time.
XBoxBoy
Participant[quote=sdrealtor]More than anything I’d love to hear from him where he got this so wrong. He gave himself an extension on his original post until the y/e so that is unlikely to come anytime soon. At the same time much of what he was so certain of (1/3 of business gone by 12/20) has not come to pass so parts could be disected already. I think its a good opportunity to learn [/quote]
More than anything this thread confirms for me two key lessons:
1) It’s extremely difficult to predict the future of markets and the economy.
2) Even if you do predict, timing is everything.XBoxBoy
Participant[quote=gzz]Redfin defines “high end” in that link as averaging $440,000.
Perhaps this is the first SD bull market where the high end does better than the mid and low end, but I’d want to see SD specific data first.
[/quote]In the article, if you scroll down there is a table with data for individual markets. San Diego:
Affordable – $485k sales 20% YoY price 9% YoY
Mid-Priced – $688k sales 28% YoY price 14% YoY
High-End – $1,050k sales 39% Yoy price 18% YoYXBoxBoy
Participant[quote=sdrealtor]Agree and this is what I’ve been reporting along the NCC. I’ve never seen hi end hotter. It seems as though folks with lots of money be it earned, inherited or gain in stocks/investments/crypto or whatever have decided to put some of that wealth into a nicer home to enjoy everyday. There could be other factors too but this is not purely driven by rates or inflation. Something is going on out there that we have not seen before[/quote]
sdrealtor, take a breath. I’m not trying to say that the recent surge is caused by inflation or interest rates. I’ve only argued that over the long term (30 years or more) you can justify pretty much all the increase in prices by inflation and interest rates. And, I’ve repeatedly acknowledged that in the short term this isn’t the case. Take a breath, I’ve never tried to disparage your claims about what is going on in NCC, so don’t act so defensive.
XBoxBoy
ParticipantAnother interesting insight when using data from Jan. 1977 is in this chart. This compares the deviation of the Case Shiller price from the XValue:
What I notice in this chart is that in 1980-1983, when interest rates were so high (mid teens!) prices people were paying were way above what we would expect based on the XValue. But we don’t think of that time as a bubble, because within a couple years interest rates had started their long march downward, and so people could refinance out of the high rates. Also, during the next few years prices didn’t grow much. So, I wouldn’t call it a bubble, since it never popped.
Which tells me, that just because prices go way above the XValue, we shouldn’t assume we are in a bubble. If it is followed by a period of lowering rates the XValue could increase rather than prices collapse.
XBoxBoy
ParticipantI’ve got some new data from Rich that I want to share, and I’ve been working with the charts and trying to develop some insight into what I’m seeing.
Here’s the same chart as I used above but with data from Jan. 1977 through April 2021.
The orange is the CaseShiller price and the blue is the price I would anticipate based on interest rate and inflation. (From here on out I’m going to refer to the anticipated price based on interest rate and inflation as the XValue, just because that’s easier to type.) There are two things to notice before jumping to any conclusions about this chart.
One of the first insights I had when looking at this chart is that the vast majority of the time house prices were overvalued in the last 45 years. Then I realized that this chart assumes that the Case Shiller and XValue are equally valued in January 1977. But the chart has very few times that is true. Simply because my data starts on January 1977 doesn’t mean the Case Shiller and the XValue would be equal at that time. So, let’s take a look at the chart with the Case Shiller undervaluing the XValue by 30% at January 1977.
Now we see about an equal amount of overvalue and undervalue.
This also lead me to realize that without some anchor to tell me that houses were fairly priced on a specific date, it becomes very difficult to use these charts to tell if currently (or at any specific time) housing is overpriced or underpriced.
Previously I claimed that over the long term the vast majority of house price rise could be explained by interest rate changes and inflation. (Short term that isn’t so true, but long term it is) Now that I have more data I think that claim still holds up very well. To help see that, I can fit a second order polynomial to each data series to find the slope.
Here we see a purple line which is the fit for the Case Shiller, and the yellow line which is a fit for the XValue.
The next issue is that as prices go up, price increase look bigger than they are when measured in percent. Imagine this scenario: You buy two houses, one for $500k and the other for $200k. Twenty years later the first house is worth $1.5m and the second house is worth only $600k. So the first house has appreciated $1m and the second house has appreciated $400k. Which one has a better return? The answer is neither, they both tripled in price. But the higher the starting price the bigger the increase should be numerically. So, when we look at the above chart, the most recent years look like a lot more appreciation but as a percent not so much. To compensate for this it’s important to work with log scale on the charts if you want to talk about growth rates. So, here’s the same chart but with a log scale on the Y axis and no slope lines.
And now with the slope lines.
XBoxBoy
Participant[quote=sdrealtor]For me the question is what explains the rest of it. Why do prices rise more and faster here than Cleveland? Why do single family homes rise more than condos. Why has beach area properties appreciated more than East County?
While he did an excellent job, I think it’s just showing how markets behave in general and I’m always looking for the exceptions that allow one to beat the market. Am I missing something?
[/quote]It’s important to keep in mind that the above charts and data do not answer most the questions you are asking. These charts and data are really only about the cause of the rise in house prices over the last 30 some years in a broad area. (San Diego in this case) And as you have pointed out previously, that relationship might not be causal.
Additionally, this data and charts do not explain any of the deviations from the expected price such as the housing bubble we saw in early 2000’s. So, clearly the relationship between interest rates, inflation, and house prices doesn’t hold true at all times.
I could make some speculative guesses as to why prices didn’t rise as fast in Cleveland, and why they rose even faster in Silicon Valley, but without data, they would just be guesses. But in this thread I’m trying to stay within Piggington’s motto: “In God we Trust, Everyone Else Bring Data.” (Although admittedly I do think that question could be a really interesting discussion. But it probably needs its own thread.)
XBoxBoy
Participant[quote=The-Shoveler]IMO can’t discount the sugar high,
In the mid 80’s mortgage rates were in the 10’s housing was going up 15-20% a year in LA (defense spending boom sugar high).[/quote]
Undoubtedly we have had a number of sugar highs in the past, and probably will have more in the future. The problem with the sugar high though is that they don’t last.
XBoxBoy
Participant[quote=sdrealtor]Correlation is not the same thing as causation[/quote]
True. However in this case I feel there is probably a causality at play. Feel free to disagree though.
XBoxBoy
Participant[quote=Rich Toscano]Second, if you are inclined, I’d love to see a variation on the final graph that, instead of mapping both series, just shows the % difference between each series. That would give a more fine-grained look at how over- or under-valued SD housing is compared to your indicator.[/quote]
Here it is:
Most notably you can see the big overvaluation that was the 2006 bubble. It looks like currently we are overvalued but not significantly.
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