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XBoxBoy
Participant[quote=CA renter]Are you claiming that these two people have the same opportunity to succeed in life?[/quote]
CA Renter, please note that Bobby did not claim that everyone has the same opportunity. What he did claim was that the argument that you can only succeed if born into wealth is not true. These are different arguments. It is possible to believe 1) life is unfair and some are born with more advantages AND 2) some will succeed despite the circumstances they are born into. There is nothing mutually exclusive about these two different beliefs. Can you see that these are different arguments?
From my own perspective, this civics lesson has the same fault that the previous civics lesson thread had. Neither example really reflects life. Both have enough truth to make them seem plausible at a casual reading but upon closer inspection they are both based on core beliefs that my experience has lead me to question.
In the previous thread, underlying the argument was the belief that everyone is lazy and unless given personal motivation they would not study. This ignores the whole premise that people can work cooperatively for common good, or that people can be motivated out of altruistic desires.
This thread has as its core underlying argument that life is a zero sum game, and that the only way to get ahead is at the expense of others. And that those born ahead are not likely to do anything to help those that are born less fortunate, and thus there is no hope for those born into less than ideal circumstances.
To me, both threads share a very pessimistic and unrealistic view of the world. Personally, in most of the classes I attended at college, there was opportunity for all, and there was a lot of support among fellow students. Then again, I studied music at college not business, so what do I know about cut-throat competitive behavior?
XBoxBoy
Participant[quote=CA renter]Are you claiming that these two people have the same opportunity to succeed in life?[/quote]
CA Renter, please note that Bobby did not claim that everyone has the same opportunity. What he did claim was that the argument that you can only succeed if born into wealth is not true. These are different arguments. It is possible to believe 1) life is unfair and some are born with more advantages AND 2) some will succeed despite the circumstances they are born into. There is nothing mutually exclusive about these two different beliefs. Can you see that these are different arguments?
From my own perspective, this civics lesson has the same fault that the previous civics lesson thread had. Neither example really reflects life. Both have enough truth to make them seem plausible at a casual reading but upon closer inspection they are both based on core beliefs that my experience has lead me to question.
In the previous thread, underlying the argument was the belief that everyone is lazy and unless given personal motivation they would not study. This ignores the whole premise that people can work cooperatively for common good, or that people can be motivated out of altruistic desires.
This thread has as its core underlying argument that life is a zero sum game, and that the only way to get ahead is at the expense of others. And that those born ahead are not likely to do anything to help those that are born less fortunate, and thus there is no hope for those born into less than ideal circumstances.
To me, both threads share a very pessimistic and unrealistic view of the world. Personally, in most of the classes I attended at college, there was opportunity for all, and there was a lot of support among fellow students. Then again, I studied music at college not business, so what do I know about cut-throat competitive behavior?
XBoxBoy
Participant[quote=IONEGARM]Does anyone really think full doc, 20% down, 6 months reserve will move the high end one bit? I sure don’t.[/quote]
It will move it a little, but only a little. As others point out, there aren’t that many buyers who can do full doc, 20% down and 6 months reserves. And many of those that can, (myself included) are still gonna sit on the fence and wait for prices to come down.
But the bad news is there will be a small number that do now buy, and they will just give other sellers false hope, and so will drag this whole thing out longer. But that is exactly what the government wants, to drag things out rather than to get the markets to where they should be.
XBoxBoy
Participant[quote=IONEGARM]Does anyone really think full doc, 20% down, 6 months reserve will move the high end one bit? I sure don’t.[/quote]
It will move it a little, but only a little. As others point out, there aren’t that many buyers who can do full doc, 20% down and 6 months reserves. And many of those that can, (myself included) are still gonna sit on the fence and wait for prices to come down.
But the bad news is there will be a small number that do now buy, and they will just give other sellers false hope, and so will drag this whole thing out longer. But that is exactly what the government wants, to drag things out rather than to get the markets to where they should be.
XBoxBoy
Participant[quote=IONEGARM]Does anyone really think full doc, 20% down, 6 months reserve will move the high end one bit? I sure don’t.[/quote]
It will move it a little, but only a little. As others point out, there aren’t that many buyers who can do full doc, 20% down and 6 months reserves. And many of those that can, (myself included) are still gonna sit on the fence and wait for prices to come down.
But the bad news is there will be a small number that do now buy, and they will just give other sellers false hope, and so will drag this whole thing out longer. But that is exactly what the government wants, to drag things out rather than to get the markets to where they should be.
XBoxBoy
Participant[quote=IONEGARM]Does anyone really think full doc, 20% down, 6 months reserve will move the high end one bit? I sure don’t.[/quote]
It will move it a little, but only a little. As others point out, there aren’t that many buyers who can do full doc, 20% down and 6 months reserves. And many of those that can, (myself included) are still gonna sit on the fence and wait for prices to come down.
But the bad news is there will be a small number that do now buy, and they will just give other sellers false hope, and so will drag this whole thing out longer. But that is exactly what the government wants, to drag things out rather than to get the markets to where they should be.
XBoxBoy
Participant[quote=IONEGARM]Does anyone really think full doc, 20% down, 6 months reserve will move the high end one bit? I sure don’t.[/quote]
It will move it a little, but only a little. As others point out, there aren’t that many buyers who can do full doc, 20% down and 6 months reserves. And many of those that can, (myself included) are still gonna sit on the fence and wait for prices to come down.
But the bad news is there will be a small number that do now buy, and they will just give other sellers false hope, and so will drag this whole thing out longer. But that is exactly what the government wants, to drag things out rather than to get the markets to where they should be.
XBoxBoy
ParticipantJP,
A fascinating story. Wonder if it’s true or just another urban legend?
While I don’t want to promote socialism or argue against the lesson of the story, I would think that in a college class, some of the students would start to take leadership roles and would put peer pressure on all to study. For instance, I could see the students who want better grades to start a study group that everyone would be pressured to attend. For them all to just give up seems highly unlikely unless the overwhelming majority of them were unmotivated towards their grade.
My biggest suspicion about why this story isn’t true is that generally it takes years for socialism to fall apart, not a matter of a single semester’s time. And how convenient that the professor got a whole class who at the beginning of the class was full of socialists and everyone agreed to this scheme. (Personally I would have gone to the dean right away)
So, I doubt it’s true, but a fun story none the less.
XBoxBoy
ParticipantJP,
A fascinating story. Wonder if it’s true or just another urban legend?
While I don’t want to promote socialism or argue against the lesson of the story, I would think that in a college class, some of the students would start to take leadership roles and would put peer pressure on all to study. For instance, I could see the students who want better grades to start a study group that everyone would be pressured to attend. For them all to just give up seems highly unlikely unless the overwhelming majority of them were unmotivated towards their grade.
My biggest suspicion about why this story isn’t true is that generally it takes years for socialism to fall apart, not a matter of a single semester’s time. And how convenient that the professor got a whole class who at the beginning of the class was full of socialists and everyone agreed to this scheme. (Personally I would have gone to the dean right away)
So, I doubt it’s true, but a fun story none the less.
XBoxBoy
ParticipantJP,
A fascinating story. Wonder if it’s true or just another urban legend?
While I don’t want to promote socialism or argue against the lesson of the story, I would think that in a college class, some of the students would start to take leadership roles and would put peer pressure on all to study. For instance, I could see the students who want better grades to start a study group that everyone would be pressured to attend. For them all to just give up seems highly unlikely unless the overwhelming majority of them were unmotivated towards their grade.
My biggest suspicion about why this story isn’t true is that generally it takes years for socialism to fall apart, not a matter of a single semester’s time. And how convenient that the professor got a whole class who at the beginning of the class was full of socialists and everyone agreed to this scheme. (Personally I would have gone to the dean right away)
So, I doubt it’s true, but a fun story none the less.
XBoxBoy
ParticipantJP,
A fascinating story. Wonder if it’s true or just another urban legend?
While I don’t want to promote socialism or argue against the lesson of the story, I would think that in a college class, some of the students would start to take leadership roles and would put peer pressure on all to study. For instance, I could see the students who want better grades to start a study group that everyone would be pressured to attend. For them all to just give up seems highly unlikely unless the overwhelming majority of them were unmotivated towards their grade.
My biggest suspicion about why this story isn’t true is that generally it takes years for socialism to fall apart, not a matter of a single semester’s time. And how convenient that the professor got a whole class who at the beginning of the class was full of socialists and everyone agreed to this scheme. (Personally I would have gone to the dean right away)
So, I doubt it’s true, but a fun story none the less.
XBoxBoy
ParticipantJP,
A fascinating story. Wonder if it’s true or just another urban legend?
While I don’t want to promote socialism or argue against the lesson of the story, I would think that in a college class, some of the students would start to take leadership roles and would put peer pressure on all to study. For instance, I could see the students who want better grades to start a study group that everyone would be pressured to attend. For them all to just give up seems highly unlikely unless the overwhelming majority of them were unmotivated towards their grade.
My biggest suspicion about why this story isn’t true is that generally it takes years for socialism to fall apart, not a matter of a single semester’s time. And how convenient that the professor got a whole class who at the beginning of the class was full of socialists and everyone agreed to this scheme. (Personally I would have gone to the dean right away)
So, I doubt it’s true, but a fun story none the less.
XBoxBoy
ParticipantHow ironic! A magazine that’s primary business is entertainment news, runs a gutsy article laying out the insanity of the situation. Meanwhile, CBS’s 60 Minutes which is supposed to be a hard hitting, award winning news show runs a Federal Reserve infomercial with soft ball questions for Bernanke.
Next thing you know late night comedians will be running insightful rants about how CNBC has made so many blatantly wrong bullish calls over the last year.
Journalism in this country is joke. No wonder so many people don’t have a clue what’s going on.
XBoxBoy
ParticipantHow ironic! A magazine that’s primary business is entertainment news, runs a gutsy article laying out the insanity of the situation. Meanwhile, CBS’s 60 Minutes which is supposed to be a hard hitting, award winning news show runs a Federal Reserve infomercial with soft ball questions for Bernanke.
Next thing you know late night comedians will be running insightful rants about how CNBC has made so many blatantly wrong bullish calls over the last year.
Journalism in this country is joke. No wonder so many people don’t have a clue what’s going on.
XBoxBoy
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