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UCGal
ParticipantOk – I want to clarify a few things.
I think a family’s choice to have a single earner and SAHP is a fine choice. I think a family’s choice to have two working parents is also fine. That’s the more common feminist view – the opportunity for choice.
I am an engineer because of feminism. I remember being told by a professor that I was a waste of a seat that could be filled by a male. (Yes – I reported him to the dean and he was forced to apologize to me and the other 2 women in the class.) I was told by a manager at an internship that he felt the internship should have been offered to a male student – he assumed I was like his daughter, at college to get the “MRS” degree. He also “encouraged” me to wear skirts to work, despite the fact that the job required climbing poles on top of buildings to retrieve the weather instrumentation for calibration. Feminism made these guys obsolete. I am proud to have the label “feminist” assigned to me because it suggests that I believe that women AND men should have all choices available – and should be compensated equivalently.
Now – back to the childcare and budget and work vs stay at home. I’m a numbers gal. When I had my first child I was able to negotiate a 3 day work week. That was the perfect compromise for me. My husband also dropped down to 4 days a week, so we only had our son in an in-home daycare 2 days a week. The daycare was with a friend who was a SAHM who we were the only client of. It was a win win – and comparable care to what my son got from me.
When pregnant with my second son, and in a different state than the first daycare provider I made a spreadsheet to figure out what the best financial options were. 2 kids, one in a “2s” room, one in an infant room is pricey. I think we paid $26k/year for both of them during two expensive years while the youngest was in the infant room. That dropped significantly when they were out of diapers. This was Kindercare – not the cheapest option, not the most expensive. The parents I met there were definitely professionals: lawyers, doctors, Phd chemists and biologists, engineers like myself, corporate managers.My spreadsheet confirmed that we would still be ahead, financially, if I returned to work. And it was more than 30cents on the dollar. We also had columns for nanny, in-home daycares, and for both options of stay at home parents. (I made more than DH at the time plus provided the benefits.) One of the factors that played into my continuing to work was the fact that engineers, MALE or FEMALE, become “stale” if unemployed for a few years. The only way around that is to get a graduate degree during the parenting break, to justify current skills. I’ve seen guys get burned by this same gap – it’s not a problem just for mommy-track women.
For us – it came down to life balance vs income. I continued to be part time until I retired. Part time options happened because of feminism, also. At least at my employer… it was women pushing for family balance – and then DADs taking advantage of it. In the late 90’s and early 2000’s Motorola consistently got awards for being “mommy friendly”.
And to reaffirm BG’s point. I brought my lunch to work – saving a fortune. As an engineer I could wear jeans or crops and flip-flops to work. (And did) Even if I had customer meetings a skirt or slacks and blouse was more than adequate. I never had to wear a suit outside of job interviews. (Legal and Banking professions are different in that respect.)
At this point – I’ve chosen to be home with the kids full time. I’m calling it retirement. I can afford it because I didn’t hire outside help to take care of my household… brought my lunch… never spent a fortune on clothes. My part time salary was under $100k – but I was still able to save a lot, pay off my mortgage, and still have time to coach my kids FLL team and cheer them on in basketball and baseball.
You have made your choice to be a stay at home parent. That’s a great choice for your family. I made a choice to continue to work. That worked for me and my family. Feminism promotes these kind of choices. But families MUST consider the financial impact of their choices – regardless of what choice they make. You should make the choice with open eyes.
ParticipantCAR –
I still have trouble understanding how you can impute that the SAME task is worth pay if it’s done by a stay at home parent than if it’s done by a single person or someone who works outside the home. You imply it’s not worth pay if the task is done by someone who works for salary outside the home.Yes – there is more cleaning, laundry, and childcare when there are kids involved. But earlier in this thread you claimed wage equivalency for paying bills, investing, etc… And you’d agree that even people who work for a salary outside the home have *some* cleaning, cooking, laundry to accomplish. And as I said – bills don’t pay themselves.
FWIW – a friend uses a nanny. Her nanny is there for 9 hours a day, 4 days a week. (She works her 5th day from home.) Her nanny does more than just childcare. She cleans/straightens, she runs laundry, she drives the kids to activities, she cooks and feeds the kids breakfast and lunch…. That would probably be a better wage equivalency.
To try to divide it up in separate people who perform services is not reality. People can multitask and do all the time… performing several different job duties in the course of a day. To try and say that it’s a 24/7 job isn’t fair either. As a working parent – you’re still doing home based work (domestic/childcare/etc) when you’re not at work… Trust me – I did it. Weekends were spent doing yard work, housework, laundry. Weeknights were spent cooking/cleanup after, working on homework with the kids, driving kids to activities, coaching teams, etc.
You can convince yourself that a SAHP would take $100k/year plus to replace – but that’s not reality and it is ignoring the reality of working parents who still manage to get a lot of the household/child stuff done after work hours.
Participant[quote=CA renter]Have to admit I’m surprised by these numbers. Maybe people are lying about their drinking habits?[/quote]
This was my suspicion.
When I have friends over for dinner and offer them a glass of wine – they pretty much all take a glass. Some may stop after one glass… some don’t.
Maybe I just hang out with drunks, lol… But I only have a few friends that don’t drink. One for religious reasons (Hindu), one because he gets alcohol flush – so it’s not pleasant to have even half a beer. To me it’s just something to plan for when I have these friends over – like accommodating a vegetarian or vegan… make sure to have a fun non-alcoholic beverage for the social time before the meal. (And the one religious one is also vegetarian – so I definitely have to plan ahead for dinner invites for him.)
Participant[quote=CA renter]
This is precisely the problem. Since wage-earning is easy to value by default, since one’s paycheck shows the perceived value of the work, there is no dispute that it is “work.”OTOH, we rarely compute the work that caretakers do if they are working within their own homes or for their own families. How much would you have to pay for someone to be there for your children 24/7? How much to make all the appointments and shuttle people to these appointments and manage all the follow-up? How much to manage a family’s finances — including bill paying, negotiating contracts and doing due diligence on service providers, doing investment research and allocating financial resources? How about a family’s financial/legal business like estate planning, insurance, home purchases, etc…especially if that tends to be managed by one spouse? And even though the subject is taboo, what value do we place on having biological children who will carry our last name…should the person who facilitates this do it for free, especially when they risk their health, their bodies, and reduce their value to future potential suitors?
Is any of this “work”? If so, how should we value it? Because it’s traditionally been done by women (who were owned by men, much like slaves…does a slave’s work have value, even if he/she was not paid?), should we assume that this work has no value?[/quote]
Do these tasks have any more or less value if they are done by a person who works for wages in addition to working at home.
I am not trying to belittle domestic duties in the slightest. I just don’t understand why domestic duties have more value if done by a stay at home parent than if done by a person who works outside the home. The same stuff needs to be done. Period. Houses don’t clean themselves, lawns don’t mow themselves, investments don’t invest themselves, bills don’t pay themselves. Every household, whether a 2 salary, single salary, or no salary household has to make sure food is in the fridge, kids are put to bed (if there are kids in the household) and the vacuum is run periodically.
As a working parent – I used preschool and after school care. So I exchanged money for childcare. That didn’t abdicate my responsibility as a parent – just as Mr. CAR probably does activities with CAR-kidlets. I haven’t hired gardening services or housecleaning services… so Mr. UCG and I divvied up the tasks… and as the kids grew older – delegated some of the tasks to them. We’re a household, we work together. There is no more value or lesser value to mowing the lawn if you pay for it, get paid for it, or do it for free… the grass still gets mowed.
I don’t understand this whole argument.
ParticipantAn argument for using a buyers agent:
– some properties are only available for view via lockbox or showings with an agent… you’d cut yourself out of those properties. Open houses are not the entire market.
– buyers agents *might* be privvy to pocket listings that aren’t on the MLS.Argument against buyers agent:
– if you use the listing agent you might be able to negotiate a kickback, or have them negotiate a lower price, with them kicking in some of the commissions. That seems unusual these days were sales prices are inflated by sellers paying buyers closing costs etc. (Which drives me nuts because the buyer ends up with higher prop taxes, realtors commissions are based on higher sales price, etc.)ParticipantWow – after reading through this entire thread I realize a few things:
– My marriage must be highly unusual… Maybe my husband struts too much or too little, but I don’t care.
– There are a lot of people who don’t recognize the give and take of a partnership. Domestic duties (child rearing, house cleaning, cooking, budgeting) are as important as working for a salary. But working for a salary has value as well. I guess I’m lucky because I never had to put more weight on one or the other – I worked for a salary (until June when I became a slacker on that front) for my entire marriage. I also did domestic labor. But so did my husband. Yes – some of it was divided by gender – he’s better at installing windows, hanging drywall, etc. I don’t mind cleaning the kitchen, running the vacuum. We both cook. We both deal with the kids. (Although he was challenged on the breastfeeding front. LOL).I don’t think my marriage is that rare or unusual. My husband isn’t some whipped guy who just does what I tell him. I’m not some mouse that does everything he tells me to do. We both contribute and it works. Looking around at friends – this isn’t that rare. (And my friends consist of people who have a stay at home parent, and couples that have both parties working for salary, and a few single parents of both genders.)
After reading this thread – I get the idea that my friends and I are truly exceptional – and I know that’s not the case.
So guys – strut your stuff and bloviate. Women, chatter on about how women deserve “me time” more than men. There are plenty of selfish self absorbed people in both genders. Get over yourselves if you’re one of them. If this doesn’t apply, then don’t take offense.
Participant[quote=CA renter]Definitely look Irish (though I know you’re Italian). :)[/quote]
I’m married to an Italian…. according to 23andMe I’m 70% British/scottish/Irish. According to family history, I’m 1/8th German.Participant[quote=FlyerInHi]Let’s say your Philly reception for 100 was 1/2 the budget of $5000. That works out to $25 per person.
I take it you didn’t engage the services of a wedding planner. Don’t you know they need to make a living too?!
Joking here. Congrats on doing it your way.[/quote]
Reception was for $3700. We negotiated a lower rate by insisting it not be considered a “wedding” reception. They charge $15/person more if the word wedding is associated with the event. We also negotiated a better rate because DH had various business meetings held at this hall and they wanted the continuing business. We had a dj for the entertainment.
The wedding was super low cost. Rental chairs for the service, the pastor’s fees & tip, I made the bouquets, corsages, boutineers with flowers from a bulk rose grower. The beachfront venue (The Beach House on 101) gave us the side room, and let us order off the menu since there were only 20 of us. My sister catered the party for 60, later that night, with easy food from costco.
The wedding industry has convinced us we need to spend huge amounts of money on stupid stuff. The diamond cartel has us convinced to spend multiple months of salary on an engagement ring. What really matters is to profess your commitment in front of family and friends, to pledge… The rest is all fluff and profitable for others.
No – I didn’t have a wedding planner. LOL.
ParticipantLets see – we were married on a bluff above the beach in La Jolla. I had a beautiful, hand-sewn raw silk dress and a lovely rose bouquet. My family and his family was there, along with close friends. We had a luncheon reception at a beachfront restaurant in North County. We arrived at the reception in a vintage, convertable Edsel. After the lunch we had a really nice reception for a bigger group of friends at my sisters house with beer and wine.
Since we lived in Philadelphia at the time – we had a separate reception for 100 at a catering hall, a month later. Menu included a choice of stuffed fish or chicken, etc. (The food was super yummy).
Both events (wedding and bigger reception a month later) came out to less than $5k. The additional $2k included our travel to/from San Diego for the wedding, our lodging for the trip. and a trip to my best friend’s house in WA state for a fitting on the dress she made me.
We spent an additional $3500 for a trip to Maui for our honeymoon. Had a balcony overlooking the water… that we got a great deal on. It had a kitchenette in the room, so we were able to eat some meals in – which is my strong preference. (I don’t like having to get dressed and ready to go just to have breakfast!… I want to lounge comfortably and drink coffee while looking at the water.)
Yes. It was *my* dream wedding. But I never had the dream of having little net bags of jordon almonds, 12 bridesmaids and groomsmen, and a catered meal for semi-strangers.
Couldn’t have asked for a prettier place to get married. Here’s a picture with my maternal grandmother and paternal grandfather.
[img_assist|nid=19275|title=grandparents wedding|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=75|height=100]
ParticipantUnless someone in the house is sick – I tend to use cold water. But I use a little vinegar in the rinse cycle – it provides the antibacterial/antimicrobial properties, deodorizes, and acts as a fabric softener. I also line dry a lot of my clothes – and the sun also acts as a natural disinfectant. Plus I save energy on the dryer.
ParticipantI stepped away from this thread for a few days and boy-howdy….
Kev – you need to date women with similar money values to you. They’re out there. But may not be flashy… especially if you’re looking for someone who is a worker/earner, who saves her money, etc… She’s not going to be the woman with the coiffed hair, skin tight mini dress… she’s going to be the woman shopping for groceries in her work clothes, after a day at the office. I had my dream wedding for under $7k. But that’s because I prioritized spending the rest of the budget on travel with my husband. I had a similar net worth to my husband when we joined together…
I think Russ/Blogstar’s theory about same levels is a good theory. My husband is better looking and funnier than me- people like him quicker. But I’m steady, hard working, etc… people come to me for advise or problem solving or hard work. Together we make a great team… better together than apart. We came from different socio-economic places though… He’s from a huge Italian Catholic family, blue collar parents. I’m from a small WASP upper middle class family, parents and grandparents all college educated… That said – we both brought our experiences and learned from each other and each other’s families. We balance each other well, though we may not appear as balanced from the outside.
ParticipantThe market is still on a roller coaster… no doubt. But it’s also still UP ytd by 5.99%. I’ll take that.
http://quicktake.morningstar.com/index/IndexCharts.aspx?Symbol=SPX
Participant[quote=pencilneck]They aren’t dog haters.
Ebola is widely assumed to be a zoonotic disease. That is, it is assumed to be a disease that jumps occasionally from wild animals to humans. This is a safe assumption. Many “new” diseases do this.
We barely understand ebola’s interaction with humans. It may be a long time before we know how ebola interacts with household animals such as dogs, cats, rabbits, finches, ferrets, chickens, hamsters etc.
In the case of the dog, possibly erring on the side of caution is prudent. Especially if it may help to save human lives.[/quote]
Prior to this outbreak the suspected starts of the ebola outbreaks were traced back to a family eating an infected monkey. So it definitely can infect monkeys. No reason to presume it can’t be transfered to other mammals.Participant[quote=Hobie]Huh??[/quote]
Was that directed to Brian’s comment or the OP?Brian’s point was a tax deduction requires an initial outflow of $ in the form of an expense or charitable contribution.
Lets say Company A makes a charitible contribution of $100.
Lets say their tax rate is 30%
They will owe $30 less in taxes – but had to outlay $100 to get that $30 – so it cost them net $70.Now – if the OP is talking about those coin collections at the checkout – I’ve wondered about that for a while. Or the fundraising drives at Costco for Rady’s Children’s hospital… who get the deduction? If it’s the corporation, that seems wrong if the customer is making the contribution.
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