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SD Realtor
ParticipantCyphire –
I am not trying to explain it away nor am I trying to rationalize it.
If indeed that the listing you spoke of, was listed with this broker and had not been expired, cancelled, or withdrawn then yes it is clear fraud. However, do you know for a fact that it had not been in withdrawn status during the listing period? Do you know if it had been cancelled or had it expired once, maybe twice, maybe three times?
If you would like to give me the MLS number I can give you the exact history of the home with regard to listing status. If you don’t have the MLS number you can give me the address.
Now you said this was a Prudential listing. Cyphire, I am sure you have read my posts and if anyone bangs pretty hard on Prudential I think I am in the front of that line. First off, we all live with fraud every day for most of our consumer products, as well as a host of other goods and services.
To say there is no recourse is not true. You and every single person on this site can go and file a complaint with the DRE. There is NOTHING STOPPING you. In fact it would be far more effective for people to complain to the DRE about the irregularities with MLS rules, mortgage brokering frauds and things like that rather then posting them on Piggingtons. Many a posting has been made on this site about suspected fraudulent transactions and cash back to buyers. Many of the times I have looked into them and debunked them or spoken my opinion that they looked clean. Yet there have been a few instances where they looked shaky.
However NEVER IN THE HISTORY OF THIS SITE have I ever heard of ANYONE actually filing a complaint to the DRE.
Why is that? Most likely because it is easier to complain about something then to actually put time and energy into following the system in place to remedy it.
Now well taken point about the car. Yet when I bought a car I never knew how long it sat on the lot. When I look at a boat I don’t know if it had previous offers on it. Again, not to bang the drum over again, but NOBODY ever complains about Realtor.com or Zillow, or Zip not producing the information as well. Nobody complains about FSBOs being monitored or standardized in any way. Why is that?
Now regarding your listing selling 10% above list price. Yes to me that would be fraud. Was your home in a price range? Was the sold price 10% above the low end? I am not trying to rationalize the fraud here but I am just trying to form a clean angle on the who thing.
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In general Cyphire, I absolutely agree with your points. I am not trying to play devils advocate and man do I ever hate trying to defend the establishment or the way things are. I don’t like it, and I don’t do it. I can conduct the way I do business but I cannot police others. It would be suicidal for me to do so.
It does not make it right (what they do). I think there “may” be recourse when enough people take action.
SD Realtor
ParticipantCyphire –
I am not trying to explain it away nor am I trying to rationalize it.
If indeed that the listing you spoke of, was listed with this broker and had not been expired, cancelled, or withdrawn then yes it is clear fraud. However, do you know for a fact that it had not been in withdrawn status during the listing period? Do you know if it had been cancelled or had it expired once, maybe twice, maybe three times?
If you would like to give me the MLS number I can give you the exact history of the home with regard to listing status. If you don’t have the MLS number you can give me the address.
Now you said this was a Prudential listing. Cyphire, I am sure you have read my posts and if anyone bangs pretty hard on Prudential I think I am in the front of that line. First off, we all live with fraud every day for most of our consumer products, as well as a host of other goods and services.
To say there is no recourse is not true. You and every single person on this site can go and file a complaint with the DRE. There is NOTHING STOPPING you. In fact it would be far more effective for people to complain to the DRE about the irregularities with MLS rules, mortgage brokering frauds and things like that rather then posting them on Piggingtons. Many a posting has been made on this site about suspected fraudulent transactions and cash back to buyers. Many of the times I have looked into them and debunked them or spoken my opinion that they looked clean. Yet there have been a few instances where they looked shaky.
However NEVER IN THE HISTORY OF THIS SITE have I ever heard of ANYONE actually filing a complaint to the DRE.
Why is that? Most likely because it is easier to complain about something then to actually put time and energy into following the system in place to remedy it.
Now well taken point about the car. Yet when I bought a car I never knew how long it sat on the lot. When I look at a boat I don’t know if it had previous offers on it. Again, not to bang the drum over again, but NOBODY ever complains about Realtor.com or Zillow, or Zip not producing the information as well. Nobody complains about FSBOs being monitored or standardized in any way. Why is that?
Now regarding your listing selling 10% above list price. Yes to me that would be fraud. Was your home in a price range? Was the sold price 10% above the low end? I am not trying to rationalize the fraud here but I am just trying to form a clean angle on the who thing.
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In general Cyphire, I absolutely agree with your points. I am not trying to play devils advocate and man do I ever hate trying to defend the establishment or the way things are. I don’t like it, and I don’t do it. I can conduct the way I do business but I cannot police others. It would be suicidal for me to do so.
It does not make it right (what they do). I think there “may” be recourse when enough people take action.
SD Realtor
ParticipantAllan –
Granted your point is well made and I should assume a lower level of intelligence for the masses.
Rustico/Cyphire –
Yes the example you guys brought up is indeed what I would call a misrepresentation of the market. However I cannot 100% fault the MLS or the associations. The entire structure is rickety.
Yes the actual data should have had a disclaimer that reads,
“These statistics are compiled from only homes that have sold…are for this type of house… this particular zip code… etc….”
Rustico yes it is absolutely correct that the statistics over all are in fact gross misrepresentations about the state of the market. IMO the same is true about the median price, etc…
Thus let me retrace… in that sense the posting by Cyphire is correct. Yes it is abysmal what Realtors, what Dataquick, what most of the talking heads and economists say about the situation and how they use or shall I say misuse statistics. Equally bad is that boneheaded people, or buyers, slurp this stuff up and live and die by it. Agreed with you guys.
My point is that for many people it doesn’t take extraordinary intelligence to get as much information as they need in light of the situation.
SD Realtor
ParticipantAllan –
Granted your point is well made and I should assume a lower level of intelligence for the masses.
Rustico/Cyphire –
Yes the example you guys brought up is indeed what I would call a misrepresentation of the market. However I cannot 100% fault the MLS or the associations. The entire structure is rickety.
Yes the actual data should have had a disclaimer that reads,
“These statistics are compiled from only homes that have sold…are for this type of house… this particular zip code… etc….”
Rustico yes it is absolutely correct that the statistics over all are in fact gross misrepresentations about the state of the market. IMO the same is true about the median price, etc…
Thus let me retrace… in that sense the posting by Cyphire is correct. Yes it is abysmal what Realtors, what Dataquick, what most of the talking heads and economists say about the situation and how they use or shall I say misuse statistics. Equally bad is that boneheaded people, or buyers, slurp this stuff up and live and die by it. Agreed with you guys.
My point is that for many people it doesn’t take extraordinary intelligence to get as much information as they need in light of the situation.
SD Realtor
ParticipantCyphire –
All I can comment on is how the Sandicor DOM works.
However before I do that, I just want to throw something out there… when people see a for sale by owner or a private party sale, how do you find out how long that home has been on the market? What mechanism is there in place to reliably determine that information? The answer is none. You take the sellers word correct? If you can prove the seller is lying then great.
Okay so Sandicor works like this. When you enter a listing, that listing takes on a new life in the MLS. What happened before, what happens after is not pertinent. This listing is yours and only yours. As long as that listing is active the MT field, market time will increment each day. There is an alternate field called AMT and this field adjusts for time off the market, (this would be a home in escrow or withdrawn). So say a home is active for 50 days and then is withdrawn for 10 days and falls out. MT would be 60 and AMT would be 50.
Now when a listing is cancelled a new listing is created. Yes everything starts over.
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Is it ethical or unethical? That is up for debate. However ANY informed buyer will always ask their Realtor to perform a full search history on homes they are seriously interested in. To claim that buyers have no recourse on this subject to me is not an adequate argument. I don’t know about alot of things and I ask professionals about them whether it is taxes, legal issues, insurance issues, etc… Thus if there is a home you are seriously interested in you would ask your realtor to see the complete history of cancelleds, expireds, previous sales etc… Is it that hard to pick up the phone and do that?
Additionally why don’t the free services like Zip, Realtor.com and other agencies do this? Why are they not targetted for complaints as well?
You know I am not a shill for NAR and I hate when I have to defend “the system” because in general I don’t like the system. However, I just do not buy into the fact that there is a widespread victimization going on here. The information can more then readily be found.
SD Realtor
ParticipantCyphire –
All I can comment on is how the Sandicor DOM works.
However before I do that, I just want to throw something out there… when people see a for sale by owner or a private party sale, how do you find out how long that home has been on the market? What mechanism is there in place to reliably determine that information? The answer is none. You take the sellers word correct? If you can prove the seller is lying then great.
Okay so Sandicor works like this. When you enter a listing, that listing takes on a new life in the MLS. What happened before, what happens after is not pertinent. This listing is yours and only yours. As long as that listing is active the MT field, market time will increment each day. There is an alternate field called AMT and this field adjusts for time off the market, (this would be a home in escrow or withdrawn). So say a home is active for 50 days and then is withdrawn for 10 days and falls out. MT would be 60 and AMT would be 50.
Now when a listing is cancelled a new listing is created. Yes everything starts over.
********
Is it ethical or unethical? That is up for debate. However ANY informed buyer will always ask their Realtor to perform a full search history on homes they are seriously interested in. To claim that buyers have no recourse on this subject to me is not an adequate argument. I don’t know about alot of things and I ask professionals about them whether it is taxes, legal issues, insurance issues, etc… Thus if there is a home you are seriously interested in you would ask your realtor to see the complete history of cancelleds, expireds, previous sales etc… Is it that hard to pick up the phone and do that?
Additionally why don’t the free services like Zip, Realtor.com and other agencies do this? Why are they not targetted for complaints as well?
You know I am not a shill for NAR and I hate when I have to defend “the system” because in general I don’t like the system. However, I just do not buy into the fact that there is a widespread victimization going on here. The information can more then readily be found.
SD Realtor
Participantsdr –
Didn’t mean to hijack the thread… just trying to set the record straight on statements that I felt needed to be addressed.
SD Realtor
Participantsdr –
Didn’t mean to hijack the thread… just trying to set the record straight on statements that I felt needed to be addressed.
SD Realtor
ParticipantI know Spectrum very well and was able to convince a buyer to NOT buy there this past summer and to sit and wait for awhile. I feel this area will get pounded pretty good by foreclosures.
SD Realtor
ParticipantI know Spectrum very well and was able to convince a buyer to NOT buy there this past summer and to sit and wait for awhile. I feel this area will get pounded pretty good by foreclosures.
SD Realtor
July 23, 2007 at 10:39 AM in reply to: 4S Evergreen 3000+ sq/ft beginning at $800K = sold out. #67139ParticipantHi 4Spotentialbuyer –
I am sorry for not having a direct answer. Bugs made a good post on this thread. The location of 4S along with the school district and the employment demographic would indicate that it will hold up for a longer period of time with respect to the downturn. Statistically speaking winter seasonally has less sales then spring simply because of the volume of buyers. I cannot say with any degree of accuracy if pricing will be higher or lower in the spring of 08 verses the winter of 07. As I said the builders are doing a good job at squeezing the supply to prop up demand.
My advice to people buying the new homes from the builder is to try to get one that falls out of escrow. I have been to sales offices where they have a quick sale on a unit that was supposed to close and didn’t because the buyer bailed out. Those tend to be priced the best and move quickly.
I usually guess wrong on stuff like this however, if employment continues to stagnate and a recession hits then giving a few more months for harder times to sink in will only help your search for lower pricing. Also there are a big number of ARM resets this fall so waiting until the spring will potentially help you as well for that. Finally, if you are going to look at the long term picture then I actually would base my purchase date on when the 10 year treasury is hitting a local bottom. If you own a home say for 15 years then say a 3/4% difference on the interest rate over that period of time for a large loan may be a factor that should not be ignored.
Sorry for the vagaries….
SD Realtor
July 23, 2007 at 10:39 AM in reply to: 4S Evergreen 3000+ sq/ft beginning at $800K = sold out. #67204ParticipantHi 4Spotentialbuyer –
I am sorry for not having a direct answer. Bugs made a good post on this thread. The location of 4S along with the school district and the employment demographic would indicate that it will hold up for a longer period of time with respect to the downturn. Statistically speaking winter seasonally has less sales then spring simply because of the volume of buyers. I cannot say with any degree of accuracy if pricing will be higher or lower in the spring of 08 verses the winter of 07. As I said the builders are doing a good job at squeezing the supply to prop up demand.
My advice to people buying the new homes from the builder is to try to get one that falls out of escrow. I have been to sales offices where they have a quick sale on a unit that was supposed to close and didn’t because the buyer bailed out. Those tend to be priced the best and move quickly.
I usually guess wrong on stuff like this however, if employment continues to stagnate and a recession hits then giving a few more months for harder times to sink in will only help your search for lower pricing. Also there are a big number of ARM resets this fall so waiting until the spring will potentially help you as well for that. Finally, if you are going to look at the long term picture then I actually would base my purchase date on when the 10 year treasury is hitting a local bottom. If you own a home say for 15 years then say a 3/4% difference on the interest rate over that period of time for a large loan may be a factor that should not be ignored.
Sorry for the vagaries….
SD Realtor
ParticipantI am not afraid of NAR however I would like to address some of the statements made…
“Take the MLS, for instance. They won’t show you the correct days-on-market stats anymore.”
Ummm… which MLS are you talking about Nancy. Sandicor has not changed a thing. I think you may be referring to the Socal MLS which is not Sandicor down here in San Diego. You can always find out how long a home has been on the market by calling the agent and asking.
Also how many days has any FSBO been on the market?
“They deliberately undercount the number of houses in the active for-sale list by dropping those without sq-ft measurements off the list.”
Ummm… once more, which MLS are you talking about Nancy? The Sandicor puts all homes on the MLS regardless of whether square footage is entered or not. An active listing is an active listing is an active listing. It is not hidden in any way. One thing that does happen though… if you do a search on square footage maybe search for a home bigger then x square feet, then the homes that do not have square footage will not be found in the search.
Actually it is a disadvantage for an agent to not list square footage on a home.
“They have “pocket” listings maybe if they think that the sellers are not internet savvy and don’t know how to check the MLS list and confirm that theirs is actually MLS-counted.”
I am not sure how many mainstream brokerages you have worked for in San Diego… pocket listings are not as commonplace as you indicate. Pocket listings happen for a few reasons… Say someone is going to list but not for a few weeks. Or perhaps the listing agent knows a key buyer or knows a key buyers agent who will want a home that exactly matches that listing… the listing agent will let the seller know that and tell them they may want to wait a few days so that they can bring the buyer over before the home is placed on the MLS.
Again, I only try to post facts, not speculation. I am not trying to shill at all for the industry but sometimes it is frustrating to read posts that clearly are not factual.
SD Realtor
ParticipantI am not afraid of NAR however I would like to address some of the statements made…
“Take the MLS, for instance. They won’t show you the correct days-on-market stats anymore.”
Ummm… which MLS are you talking about Nancy. Sandicor has not changed a thing. I think you may be referring to the Socal MLS which is not Sandicor down here in San Diego. You can always find out how long a home has been on the market by calling the agent and asking.
Also how many days has any FSBO been on the market?
“They deliberately undercount the number of houses in the active for-sale list by dropping those without sq-ft measurements off the list.”
Ummm… once more, which MLS are you talking about Nancy? The Sandicor puts all homes on the MLS regardless of whether square footage is entered or not. An active listing is an active listing is an active listing. It is not hidden in any way. One thing that does happen though… if you do a search on square footage maybe search for a home bigger then x square feet, then the homes that do not have square footage will not be found in the search.
Actually it is a disadvantage for an agent to not list square footage on a home.
“They have “pocket” listings maybe if they think that the sellers are not internet savvy and don’t know how to check the MLS list and confirm that theirs is actually MLS-counted.”
I am not sure how many mainstream brokerages you have worked for in San Diego… pocket listings are not as commonplace as you indicate. Pocket listings happen for a few reasons… Say someone is going to list but not for a few weeks. Or perhaps the listing agent knows a key buyer or knows a key buyers agent who will want a home that exactly matches that listing… the listing agent will let the seller know that and tell them they may want to wait a few days so that they can bring the buyer over before the home is placed on the MLS.
Again, I only try to post facts, not speculation. I am not trying to shill at all for the industry but sometimes it is frustrating to read posts that clearly are not factual.
SD Realtor
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