[patb]

[quote=afx114][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]You would be amazed what sitting down with someone over a period of hours or days can produce in terms of useful intelligence.[/quote]

Forgive me if I am wrong, but didn’t Saddam reveal some stuff to his guards after months of being buddy-buddy with them? What we should do with suspected terrorists is throw back a few beers with them, play some Lego Star Wars, break the ice, and shoot the shit — who knows what they might reveal.
[/quote]

in WW2, our naval interrogators got more out of German Sub Commanders
over a game of chess, then they would have ever gotten out of
a steam iron

[patb]

[quote=afx114]Well said SanDiegoDave.

I’m no expert on torture, but it seems to me that if I was being tortured I would tell the torturers whatever they wanted to hear in order to get them to stop — whether it is truthful or not. What if I didn’t know the answer? Wouldn’t I tell them anything to get them to stop?

Have there been studies done on the validity of information gained via torture? It seems to me that torture is a low percentage proposition.[/quote]

Torture is a thing that depends upon solid knowledge by the torturers.
You don’t go on a goose chase with torture, you need to know exactly
what it is, and to have a way to verify it, before you engage in torture.

Here are two examples.

1) I have temecula guy being waterboarded, and i want his PIN number
to his ATM Card. I have the ATM Card, I know he has the PIN Number,
and it’s just a matter of some water and time to get it, and i can
check it easily. Trust me, TG will be coughing up that number in
10 minutes.

2) I have TG and his family, and 8 of his close friends and neighbors.
I think one of them has the total value of bin laden’s
savings account in a swiss bank. I start torturing TG for the
value. Then his wife, then his kid, then the friends,
even if i get a number, how do i check it, the swiss won’t
release that number to me. So what do i gain?
I get numbers all over the place, from 15 people, which number
is correct and which one is meaningful?

if you want another example, try the location of a kidnapped american
soldier that is MIA in Afghanistan? It’s hard to verify and the
data may change.

McCain was tortured, when they asked him his target he coughed it up,
because it was pretty obvious where he going at the time. They then
asked who was in his squadron and he named the green bay packers
front line.

what use to the NVA was it to torture McCain? none.
it was brutality for brutality alone.

There is a reason torture is not used in court. If torture was effective,
it would be used all the time.

[patb]

[quote=afx114]Well said SanDiegoDave.

I’m no expert on torture, but it seems to me that if I was being tortured I would tell the torturers whatever they wanted to hear in order to get them to stop — whether it is truthful or not. What if I didn’t know the answer? Wouldn’t I tell them anything to get them to stop?

Have there been studies done on the validity of information gained via torture? It seems to me that torture is a low percentage proposition.[/quote]

Torture is a thing that depends upon solid knowledge by the torturers.
You don’t go on a goose chase with torture, you need to know exactly
what it is, and to have a way to verify it, before you engage in torture.

Here are two examples.

1) I have temecula guy being waterboarded, and i want his PIN number
to his ATM Card. I have the ATM Card, I know he has the PIN Number,
and it’s just a matter of some water and time to get it, and i can
check it easily. Trust me, TG will be coughing up that number in
10 minutes.

2) I have TG and his family, and 8 of his close friends and neighbors.
I think one of them has the total value of bin laden’s
savings account in a swiss bank. I start torturing TG for the
value. Then his wife, then his kid, then the friends,
even if i get a number, how do i check it, the swiss won’t
release that number to me. So what do i gain?
I get numbers all over the place, from 15 people, which number
is correct and which one is meaningful?

if you want another example, try the location of a kidnapped american
soldier that is MIA in Afghanistan? It’s hard to verify and the
data may change.

McCain was tortured, when they asked him his target he coughed it up,
because it was pretty obvious where he going at the time. They then
asked who was in his squadron and he named the green bay packers
front line.

what use to the NVA was it to torture McCain? none.
it was brutality for brutality alone.

There is a reason torture is not used in court. If torture was effective,
it would be used all the time.

[patb]

[quote=afx114]Well said SanDiegoDave.

I’m no expert on torture, but it seems to me that if I was being tortured I would tell the torturers whatever they wanted to hear in order to get them to stop — whether it is truthful or not. What if I didn’t know the answer? Wouldn’t I tell them anything to get them to stop?

Have there been studies done on the validity of information gained via torture? It seems to me that torture is a low percentage proposition.[/quote]

Torture is a thing that depends upon solid knowledge by the torturers.
You don’t go on a goose chase with torture, you need to know exactly
what it is, and to have a way to verify it, before you engage in torture.

Here are two examples.

1) I have temecula guy being waterboarded, and i want his PIN number
to his ATM Card. I have the ATM Card, I know he has the PIN Number,
and it’s just a matter of some water and time to get it, and i can
check it easily. Trust me, TG will be coughing up that number in
10 minutes.

2) I have TG and his family, and 8 of his close friends and neighbors.
I think one of them has the total value of bin laden’s
savings account in a swiss bank. I start torturing TG for the
value. Then his wife, then his kid, then the friends,
even if i get a number, how do i check it, the swiss won’t
release that number to me. So what do i gain?
I get numbers all over the place, from 15 people, which number
is correct and which one is meaningful?

if you want another example, try the location of a kidnapped american
soldier that is MIA in Afghanistan? It’s hard to verify and the
data may change.

McCain was tortured, when they asked him his target he coughed it up,
because it was pretty obvious where he going at the time. They then
asked who was in his squadron and he named the green bay packers
front line.

what use to the NVA was it to torture McCain? none.
it was brutality for brutality alone.

There is a reason torture is not used in court. If torture was effective,
it would be used all the time.

[patb]

[quote=afx114]Well said SanDiegoDave.

I’m no expert on torture, but it seems to me that if I was being tortured I would tell the torturers whatever they wanted to hear in order to get them to stop — whether it is truthful or not. What if I didn’t know the answer? Wouldn’t I tell them anything to get them to stop?

Have there been studies done on the validity of information gained via torture? It seems to me that torture is a low percentage proposition.[/quote]

Torture is a thing that depends upon solid knowledge by the torturers.
You don’t go on a goose chase with torture, you need to know exactly
what it is, and to have a way to verify it, before you engage in torture.

Here are two examples.

1) I have temecula guy being waterboarded, and i want his PIN number
to his ATM Card. I have the ATM Card, I know he has the PIN Number,
and it’s just a matter of some water and time to get it, and i can
check it easily. Trust me, TG will be coughing up that number in
10 minutes.

2) I have TG and his family, and 8 of his close friends and neighbors.
I think one of them has the total value of bin laden’s
savings account in a swiss bank. I start torturing TG for the
value. Then his wife, then his kid, then the friends,
even if i get a number, how do i check it, the swiss won’t
release that number to me. So what do i gain?
I get numbers all over the place, from 15 people, which number
is correct and which one is meaningful?

if you want another example, try the location of a kidnapped american
soldier that is MIA in Afghanistan? It’s hard to verify and the
data may change.

McCain was tortured, when they asked him his target he coughed it up,
because it was pretty obvious where he going at the time. They then
asked who was in his squadron and he named the green bay packers
front line.

what use to the NVA was it to torture McCain? none.
it was brutality for brutality alone.

There is a reason torture is not used in court. If torture was effective,
it would be used all the time.

[patb]

[quote=afx114]Well said SanDiegoDave.

I’m no expert on torture, but it seems to me that if I was being tortured I would tell the torturers whatever they wanted to hear in order to get them to stop — whether it is truthful or not. What if I didn’t know the answer? Wouldn’t I tell them anything to get them to stop?

Have there been studies done on the validity of information gained via torture? It seems to me that torture is a low percentage proposition.[/quote]

Torture is a thing that depends upon solid knowledge by the torturers.
You don’t go on a goose chase with torture, you need to know exactly
what it is, and to have a way to verify it, before you engage in torture.

Here are two examples.

1) I have temecula guy being waterboarded, and i want his PIN number
to his ATM Card. I have the ATM Card, I know he has the PIN Number,
and it’s just a matter of some water and time to get it, and i can
check it easily. Trust me, TG will be coughing up that number in
10 minutes.

2) I have TG and his family, and 8 of his close friends and neighbors.
I think one of them has the total value of bin laden’s
savings account in a swiss bank. I start torturing TG for the
value. Then his wife, then his kid, then the friends,
even if i get a number, how do i check it, the swiss won’t
release that number to me. So what do i gain?
I get numbers all over the place, from 15 people, which number
is correct and which one is meaningful?

if you want another example, try the location of a kidnapped american
soldier that is MIA in Afghanistan? It’s hard to verify and the
data may change.

McCain was tortured, when they asked him his target he coughed it up,
because it was pretty obvious where he going at the time. They then
asked who was in his squadron and he named the green bay packers
front line.

what use to the NVA was it to torture McCain? none.
it was brutality for brutality alone.

There is a reason torture is not used in court. If torture was effective,
it would be used all the time.

[patb]

[quote=ibjames]How do you end up like that, with that much credit card debt? I just don’t get it, you would have to try to get that much debt[/quote]

Use the credit cards to pay for the house in jacksonville.

as best i see it, guy gets suckered into
investing in florida real estate boom.

Takes 100K out in HELOC/2nd Mortgage.

Lives large, decides to buy Primary residence in Maryland.

Wants to sell, house goes negative in 2007, begins
draining credit cards probably has 100K in credit cards, add in
late fees, overages, 28% APR, rises to 250K, fast.

Decides to Kill family rather then face ignominy of Bankruptcy.

Stupid.

If he had taken the HELOC and Credit Card debt used it to
pay off house in maryland, mailed keys to bank, mailed
fuck you letter to banks, paid 900/month on
payment plan, would be fine today.

Shattered credit, but, with decent income would survive.

Have wife get job, and, it would work out in end.

[patb]

[quote=ibjames]How do you end up like that, with that much credit card debt? I just don’t get it, you would have to try to get that much debt[/quote]

Use the credit cards to pay for the house in jacksonville.

as best i see it, guy gets suckered into
investing in florida real estate boom.

Takes 100K out in HELOC/2nd Mortgage.

Lives large, decides to buy Primary residence in Maryland.

Wants to sell, house goes negative in 2007, begins
draining credit cards probably has 100K in credit cards, add in
late fees, overages, 28% APR, rises to 250K, fast.

Decides to Kill family rather then face ignominy of Bankruptcy.

Stupid.

If he had taken the HELOC and Credit Card debt used it to
pay off house in maryland, mailed keys to bank, mailed
fuck you letter to banks, paid 900/month on
payment plan, would be fine today.

Shattered credit, but, with decent income would survive.

Have wife get job, and, it would work out in end.

[patb]

[quote=ibjames]How do you end up like that, with that much credit card debt? I just don’t get it, you would have to try to get that much debt[/quote]

Use the credit cards to pay for the house in jacksonville.

as best i see it, guy gets suckered into
investing in florida real estate boom.

Takes 100K out in HELOC/2nd Mortgage.

Lives large, decides to buy Primary residence in Maryland.

Wants to sell, house goes negative in 2007, begins
draining credit cards probably has 100K in credit cards, add in
late fees, overages, 28% APR, rises to 250K, fast.

Decides to Kill family rather then face ignominy of Bankruptcy.

Stupid.

If he had taken the HELOC and Credit Card debt used it to
pay off house in maryland, mailed keys to bank, mailed
fuck you letter to banks, paid 900/month on
payment plan, would be fine today.

Shattered credit, but, with decent income would survive.

Have wife get job, and, it would work out in end.

[patb]

[quote=ibjames]How do you end up like that, with that much credit card debt? I just don’t get it, you would have to try to get that much debt[/quote]

Use the credit cards to pay for the house in jacksonville.

as best i see it, guy gets suckered into
investing in florida real estate boom.

Takes 100K out in HELOC/2nd Mortgage.

Lives large, decides to buy Primary residence in Maryland.

Wants to sell, house goes negative in 2007, begins
draining credit cards probably has 100K in credit cards, add in
late fees, overages, 28% APR, rises to 250K, fast.

Decides to Kill family rather then face ignominy of Bankruptcy.

Stupid.

If he had taken the HELOC and Credit Card debt used it to
pay off house in maryland, mailed keys to bank, mailed
fuck you letter to banks, paid 900/month on
payment plan, would be fine today.

Shattered credit, but, with decent income would survive.

Have wife get job, and, it would work out in end.

[patb]

[quote=ibjames]How do you end up like that, with that much credit card debt? I just don’t get it, you would have to try to get that much debt[/quote]

Use the credit cards to pay for the house in jacksonville.

as best i see it, guy gets suckered into
investing in florida real estate boom.

Takes 100K out in HELOC/2nd Mortgage.

Lives large, decides to buy Primary residence in Maryland.

Wants to sell, house goes negative in 2007, begins
draining credit cards probably has 100K in credit cards, add in
late fees, overages, 28% APR, rises to 250K, fast.

Decides to Kill family rather then face ignominy of Bankruptcy.

Stupid.

If he had taken the HELOC and Credit Card debt used it to
pay off house in maryland, mailed keys to bank, mailed
fuck you letter to banks, paid 900/month on
payment plan, would be fine today.

Shattered credit, but, with decent income would survive.

Have wife get job, and, it would work out in end.

[patb]

I expect more suicides, that’s the sign it’s a real downturn.

If Wall Street was being Body Bombed, then, i’d feel a lot better
about TARP.

[patb]

I expect more suicides, that’s the sign it’s a real downturn.

If Wall Street was being Body Bombed, then, i’d feel a lot better
about TARP.

[patb]

I expect more suicides, that’s the sign it’s a real downturn.

If Wall Street was being Body Bombed, then, i’d feel a lot better
about TARP.

[patb]

I expect more suicides, that’s the sign it’s a real downturn.

If Wall Street was being Body Bombed, then, i’d feel a lot better
about TARP.

[Author]

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