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NotCranky
Participant[quote=CA renter][quote=Blogstar][quote=CA renter][quote=Blogstar]
You just said that thing that’s bolded again. Then you claimed that there is sociological proof for that thing that is bolded that you just said that you never say.
And that men are catching up wouldn’t be a compliment or an insult if you didn’t first believe that women are better than men.
Then you pepper more anecdotes to prove what you aren’t saying. Your own dad is proof( big surprise there).
My childhood life was terrible but my parents are not proof any general truth about the comparative value of their respective genders and either is your father or any number of bad actors you want to cherry pick.
So you say all the time that women are better than men. It is a part of who you are. “Mask of political correctness” my ass. You are coercive. At least don’t deny that your position is that women are better than men and always have been.
You can bold it again, that’s still where you are at.[/quote]
Okay, where is your proof that men have always been good husbands and fathers? Where is your evidence that they have always helped out with domestic chores and caretaking?
Where is your evidence that men haven’t oppressed others, especially women?
And while my father was not a good husband, he was a good father (as stated). My mother was not such a good mother. I can be honest and objective about this subject…far more honest and objective than you are.
How about your family? Didn’t you say that it was your father who caused so much harm to your family?
And how about all of those other families where the father has abandoned them? Can you compare that to the number of women who’ve abandoned their families?
How about crime rates? Take a look at which gender commits most of the violent (and other) crimes.
So, yeah, I’m not going to pretend that everything has always been great between the sexes, and I’m not going to pretend that women haven’t been subjugated by men throughout all of human history. And I’m not going to pretend that the way “woman’s work” is perceived and valued isn’t almost entirely based on women’s status throughout human history.
Perhaps you’d like to live in some kind of intellectual fairyland, but I don’t.[/quote]
You are still doing it .
My mother abandoned 7 of 8 kids to marry a wealthier man and live an easier and better life, She took me with her at least in part because she was stealing my childhood to keep her company.
She is proof of nothing about the comparative value of her gender.[/quote]I’m pretty sure you’ve said that your father wasn’t the best, but I’m not going to search for it…that’s not my point here.
How about answering any of the other questions…have any evidence that men haven’t oppressed women, abused them, abandoned them and their children…especially more than the reverse?[/quote]
So What if my father wasn’t the best? Why would he be the best, water seeks it’s own level. But let’s shift attention back to my father because my mother doesn’t build your case. Pathetic. As to your other points, you don’t get that score keeping without insight is stupid so I am not going to bother. You WILL reject anything that does not build your case.
You see what you want to see and believe what you want to believe. There are all kinds of books out there, but your stack proves women are better than men. Everything you can or will think about proves that women are better than men. Yet a few posts back you denied you ever even say it.
Do you have boys? Because it is your world view you are saying it to your boys, because you are saying it to the world, you are saying it to your boys. Maybe you only have girls but trust me you aren’t doing your girls any favors by saying it. I tell my boys women are great not just their mom or a few select ones that pass my opinion of who’s “catching up”. Did G-d make your girls better than your boys?
Participant[quote=CA renter][quote=Blogstar]
You just said that thing that’s bolded again. Then you claimed that there is sociological proof for that thing that is bolded that you just said that you never say.
And that men are catching up wouldn’t be a compliment or an insult if you didn’t first believe that women are better than men.
Then you pepper more anecdotes to prove what you aren’t saying. Your own dad is proof( big surprise there).
My childhood life was terrible but my parents are not proof any general truth about the comparative value of their respective genders and either is your father or any number of bad actors you want to cherry pick.
So you say all the time that women are better than men. It is a part of who you are. “Mask of political correctness” my ass. You are coercive. At least don’t deny that your position is that women are better than men and always have been.
You can bold it again, that’s still where you are at.[/quote]
Okay, where is your proof that men have always been good husbands and fathers? Where is your evidence that they have always helped out with domestic chores and caretaking?
Where is your evidence that men haven’t oppressed others, especially women?
And while my father was not a good husband, he was a good father (as stated). My mother was not such a good mother. I can be honest and objective about this subject…far more honest and objective than you are.
How about your family? Didn’t you say that it was your father who caused so much harm to your family?
And how about all of those other families where the father has abandoned them? Can you compare that to the number of women who’ve abandoned their families?
How about crime rates? Take a look at which gender commits most of the violent (and other) crimes.
So, yeah, I’m not going to pretend that everything has always been great between the sexes, and I’m not going to pretend that women haven’t been subjugated by men throughout all of human history. And I’m not going to pretend that the way “woman’s work” is perceived and valued isn’t almost entirely based on women’s status throughout human history.
Perhaps you’d like to live in some kind of intellectual fairyland, but I don’t.[/quote]
You are still doing it .
My mother abandoned 7 of 8 kids to marry a wealthier man and live an easier and better life, She took me with her at least in part because she was stealing my childhood to keep her company.
She is proof of nothing about the comparative value of her gender.Participant[quote=CA renter][quote=Blogstar]You didn’t get in trouble with me for arguing over how much house work is worth. It’s your frequent insistence, perhaps barely weakening now , that
women are better than men and always have been. We have been around on this 3 or 4 times since this blog started and it’s always the same. I find it impossible to think that men are better than women or the other way around…so I don’t whine about it.Men are not “coming around’ finally any more than male rabbits or female kangaroos are.That’s a huge condescending insult. Culture changes more rapidly in humans and probably faster now than ever. We are animals and it is impossible that G-d made one sex better than the other.
Neither you or I had parents who were reasonably good couples cooperating in making functioning home and then supporting each other after, out of loyalty continued love and friendship or any other reasons .They were not mr,. and ms. UCGAL by a long stretch. We had no one show us to be grateful to one another and trust that it’s pretty easy to be o.k. with our partners. Whatever we saw was the opposite. Lots of crippled perception and insecurity from that gets transferred to our world view with the opposite sex /male female relations can come from that. It just fits the definition of how people get long term hurt from dysfunctional families. KEV might be in the same boat but that’s for him to say.
Apologizing for psychoanalyzing you, but I wouldn’t be surprised if some of your energy and bias and stubbornness on this comes from that.[/quote]
Where, exactly, have I said the bolded part?
And it IS true that men have come around over the past couple of decades; every bit of sociological research out there will show you this. That’s not a criticism, it’s a compliment.
Edited to add:
While I think my family life was likely better than yours by a long shot (though we certainly share some experiences as wards of the state), I would agree that my perceptions have been colored by my experiences, as well as the experiences of many other families I’ve known…including my husband’s experience with his family, and my mother’s experience with her family, and my father’s experience with his family, etc., etc.
As a manager in the corporate world, I had to interview women in their 50s and 60s who had been abandoned by their husbands (who often left for women about the age, or even younger than their own children) after decades of raising many children and devoting their lives to their families. Sorry if you disagree, but that is flat-out wrong. The stories I’ve heard were completely devastating. After my parents divorced, my mother rented out rooms to make ends meet, and most of her renters were other divorced people (men and women) who had all kinds of similar experiences that have most definitely colored my perceptions.
In addition to this, and largely because of my experiences, I had studied family formation trends and their effects on the economy. I have thousands of pages of studies, books, etc. that back what I am saying here.
FWIW, I married my husband largely because he, too, had experienced the same things in his family. We have vowed to change the course of our family histories, and have been fortunate enough to have found our “soul mates.” Though we had to work through some very rough patches, especially in the beginning, we are stronger for it. There is nobody in the world who I respect or love more…nobody even comes close. I was also blessed to have a wonderful father, though he was a rather miserable husband because he was pretty emotionally stunted (an understatement), especially when it came to romantic relationships.
So, should we ignore everything that we have experienced and researched in order to wear the mask of political correctness, or should we be honest about what we have seen?[/quote]
You just said that thing that’s bolded again. Then you claimed that there is sociological proof for that thing that is bolded that you just said that you never say.
And that men are catching up wouldn’t be a compliment or an insult if you didn’t first believe that women are better than men.
Then you pepper more anecdotes to prove what you aren’t saying. Your own dad is proof( big surprise there).
My childhood life was terrible but my parents are not proof any general truth about the comparative value of their respective genders and either is your father or any number of bad actors you want to cherry pick.
So you say all the time that women are better than men. It is a part of who you are. “Mask of political correctness” my ass. You are coercive. At least don’t deny that your position is that women are better than men and always have been.
You can bold it again, that’s still where you are at.
Participant[quote=FlyerInHi]For most people today, it’s easiest to find someone you want to have kids with and agree to pay 1/2 of everthing. Each person’s responsibility to get his/her own money.[/quote]
I haven’t met these people, who are they?
ParticipantOMG! Brian gets it!
Participant[quote=FlyerInHi]The kids would be mine, not hers since I paid for everything.
If she wants 1/2 ownership of the kids, she would need to pay 1/2 the household expenses out of her $100k salary.[/quote]
That’s exactly right….and blows the whole thing apart. It’s called a family unit for a reason. If it were treated like Carenter wants it it would be way worse for any woman not working but married to a man of means.
ParticipantCalculating your value vs the mother or father of your chlidren Is sad isn’t it?
Why would anyone do that unless they were thinking that the marriage might break-up?It makes sense to have repect your family’s values about having a stay at home parent and only your family’s values. Inevitably there will be thinking about the economic tradeoffs, but that’s different than sweating it once you have an agreement. If you don’t like how it evolves, or fear where it could lead ,then it is imperative to find a solution and I guarantee it is not the math problem of how much a sahp’s work is worth.
And for godsake , CARenter, please quit calling it “women’s work” . How sexist can you be?
ParticipantYou didn’t get in trouble with me for arguing over how much house work is worth. It’s your frequent insistence, perhaps barely weakening now , that
women are better than men and always have been. We have been around on this 3 or 4 times since this blog started and it’s always the same. I find it impossible to think that men are better than women or the other way around…so I don’t whine about it.Men are not “coming around’ finally any more than male rabbits or female kangaroos are.That’s a huge condescending insult. Culture changes more rapidly in humans and probably faster now than ever. We are animals and it is impossible that G-d made one sex better than the other.
Neither you or I had parents who were reasonably good couples cooperating in making functioning home and then supporting each other after, out of loyalty continued love and friendship or any other reasons .They were not mr,. and ms. UCGAL by a long stretch. We had no one show us to be grateful to one another and trust that it’s pretty easy to be o.k. with our partners. Whatever we saw was the opposite. Lots of crippled perception and insecurity from that gets transferred to our world view with the opposite sex /male female relations can come from that. It just fits the definition of how people get long term hurt from dysfunctional families. KEV might be in the same boat but that’s for him to say.
Apologizing for psychoanalyzing you, but I wouldn’t be surprised if some of your energy and bias and stubbornness on this comes from that.
ParticipantIt doesn’t seem logical to me that any legal definition of the value of household work would ever be more than half national median household income. Even that is pretty extreme. If a stay at home worker sucked that off median household income families below and at the level and for some $ above would be doomed.
A person managing household investments in community is getting half the gains already.
Stay at home parents should be grateful that their partners consider them to be pulling their weight. The deal the stay at home is getting ,if they in fact they want to stay home, is better than good.
ParticipantLots of work that people do , especially blue collar men, degrades their bodies as much or worse than pregnancy and/or have high death risk factors. So, if pregnancy is allocated for, how about that?
1 baby=1 decade as an industrial worker.
ParticipantI am not going to sweep the fucking floors now, I am underpaid as it is.
Participant[quote=FlyerInHi]Like I said, I’m still looking for a stay at home position. So far, no luck yet. Seems like it’s always the other way around.[/quote]
That’s because you don’t truly value it , or yourself in that position. You have to learn to monetize it so that it is palatable and then your psyche will allow being a kept man to materialize. Make sure you visualize it happening with a pleasant always smiling ,never complaining or sad, and very very hot woman because ,after all , you are still a lame ass emotionally retarded man and that’s all we can deal with. When she get’s old just take half the money and leave her to go out and find yourself.
Participant[quote=scaredyclassic]is it worth money for me to simply be VOMIT PATROL GUY even if no one is vomiting, or is it just my cleaning up actual piles of vomit that are worth money. the fact that when a kid gets sick, I stand ready to serve and mop?[/quote]
24/7 vomit patrol.
SInce I am home with the dogs and cat I am a kennel owner. I am worried my kids won’t eat their peanut butter and jelly sandwiches….chaching! $$$$
With all this monetizing, my wife is going to have to get a second and third job to afford me. I bet she isn’t worrying about the peanut butter sandwiches.Participant[quote=CA renter][quote=scaredyclassic]i dont know. most lawyers wouldnt do legal work for free.
if you feel shitty afterwards, it’s probably work…
if you feel pretty good after, it could be work.[/quote]
But many lawyers do work for free, or for a reduced rate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro_bono
And many would argue that the fact that attorneys and doctors have powerful associations that represent the collective interests of these professionals (creating artificial barriers to entry, along with mandating the use of these professionals) means that we are overpaying them. How can we determine the “real” value of this work?
Housewives have no such associations.[/quote]
Housewives would have such associations if it were not such a rediculous argument. When is the last time someone got to be a Dr. by finding someone to marry them? Those fake barriers to entry to being a Dr. all housewives would be Dr. if you just took those away , so housewife work has to be worth around 500K.
I f a woman is a housewife instead of a Dr. It’s because she wants it. She didn’t earn a boatload of money by doing that, she gave it away.
Your arguments are all silly. Sperm can make babies so it must be worth diamonds and who knows how much of it the poor slave guy has to give away freely before conception . OMG. You are like a little whiny child on this topic.
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