[jstoesz]

oooh, looks like I got under some skin…maybe I will tone it down a little. There is always some degree of hyperbole in what I am saying, and I apologize. I am arguing in ideals rather than pure on the ground implementation. That is always a messier sort of thing.

[quote]Either the public school in your area (many actually provide choices within your district) or you can elect to send them to private school. Or even home school them. That choice is yours.[/quote]

So the state takes my tax money, and I have either the choice of a state mandated secular humanist education or I can forfeit it and pay after tax dollar on a private school…Sounds a bit like state coercion towards the secular humanist school. And the notion that our schools must be absent any mention of God as a real and important part of our lives is indeed a federal mandate…

[quote]But with minor exception, that Muslim school (or any other parochial school) cannot receive direct federal or state funding. [/quote]
There is that coercion…again…

[quote](And the assertion that the absence of religion is a religion is absurd. In the rhetorical sense, it begs the question. It is a logical fallacy which assumes that everyone must have faith. I don’t, thank you. I don’t begrudge you having yours. It simply isn’t mine.)[/quote]

Let me state how I define religion…I define it as a faith and devotion to something that one can not prove. Can you prove God does not exist? Yeah I can not prove that he does either…so that is where that faith comes in. I am devoted to God, while you are devoted to your intellect and capacity for reason (I can respect that by the way).

[jstoesz]

oooh, looks like I got under some skin…maybe I will tone it down a little. There is always some degree of hyperbole in what I am saying, and I apologize. I am arguing in ideals rather than pure on the ground implementation. That is always a messier sort of thing.

[quote]Either the public school in your area (many actually provide choices within your district) or you can elect to send them to private school. Or even home school them. That choice is yours.[/quote]

So the state takes my tax money, and I have either the choice of a state mandated secular humanist education or I can forfeit it and pay after tax dollar on a private school…Sounds a bit like state coercion towards the secular humanist school. And the notion that our schools must be absent any mention of God as a real and important part of our lives is indeed a federal mandate…

[quote]But with minor exception, that Muslim school (or any other parochial school) cannot receive direct federal or state funding. [/quote]
There is that coercion…again…

[quote](And the assertion that the absence of religion is a religion is absurd. In the rhetorical sense, it begs the question. It is a logical fallacy which assumes that everyone must have faith. I don’t, thank you. I don’t begrudge you having yours. It simply isn’t mine.)[/quote]

Let me state how I define religion…I define it as a faith and devotion to something that one can not prove. Can you prove God does not exist? Yeah I can not prove that he does either…so that is where that faith comes in. I am devoted to God, while you are devoted to your intellect and capacity for reason (I can respect that by the way).

[jstoesz]

[quote]government is promoting religion by giving religious institutions tax exempt status. As an atheist I am offended by that, yet somehow you are the one being oppressed?[/quote]

Are non religious institutions not afforded the same tax exempt status? How is this being preferential? would you propose that all religious based charities be excluded from this provision? How is that not discrimination against religion?

Furthermore, why is our tax code so freaking convoluted that this is an issue? If the federal government wasn’t in the business of legislating every aspect of our lives through tax penalties and subsidies we would not need this exemption. Lets get rid of this carve out and every other.

All of these problems stem from the this…

[jstoesz]

[quote]government is promoting religion by giving religious institutions tax exempt status. As an atheist I am offended by that, yet somehow you are the one being oppressed?[/quote]

Are non religious institutions not afforded the same tax exempt status? How is this being preferential? would you propose that all religious based charities be excluded from this provision? How is that not discrimination against religion?

Furthermore, why is our tax code so freaking convoluted that this is an issue? If the federal government wasn’t in the business of legislating every aspect of our lives through tax penalties and subsidies we would not need this exemption. Lets get rid of this carve out and every other.

All of these problems stem from the this…

[jstoesz]

[quote]government is promoting religion by giving religious institutions tax exempt status. As an atheist I am offended by that, yet somehow you are the one being oppressed?[/quote]

Are non religious institutions not afforded the same tax exempt status? How is this being preferential? would you propose that all religious based charities be excluded from this provision? How is that not discrimination against religion?

Furthermore, why is our tax code so freaking convoluted that this is an issue? If the federal government wasn’t in the business of legislating every aspect of our lives through tax penalties and subsidies we would not need this exemption. Lets get rid of this carve out and every other.

All of these problems stem from the this…

[jstoesz]

[quote]government is promoting religion by giving religious institutions tax exempt status. As an atheist I am offended by that, yet somehow you are the one being oppressed?[/quote]

Are non religious institutions not afforded the same tax exempt status? How is this being preferential? would you propose that all religious based charities be excluded from this provision? How is that not discrimination against religion?

Furthermore, why is our tax code so freaking convoluted that this is an issue? If the federal government wasn’t in the business of legislating every aspect of our lives through tax penalties and subsidies we would not need this exemption. Lets get rid of this carve out and every other.

All of these problems stem from the this…

[jstoesz]

[quote]government is promoting religion by giving religious institutions tax exempt status. As an atheist I am offended by that, yet somehow you are the one being oppressed?[/quote]

Are non religious institutions not afforded the same tax exempt status? How is this being preferential? would you propose that all religious based charities be excluded from this provision? How is that not discrimination against religion?

Furthermore, why is our tax code so freaking convoluted that this is an issue? If the federal government wasn’t in the business of legislating every aspect of our lives through tax penalties and subsidies we would not need this exemption. Lets get rid of this carve out and every other.

All of these problems stem from the this…

[jstoesz]

All of this follows to the elemental problem with public schools…They are a one size fits all legislative control arm from Washington. In one of the most intimate aspects of our lives. There are no choices (I guess they are limited with charter schools and the financially prohibitive private schools). If people can go where they choose, this debate we are having is moot. The solution to this problem is freedom not more regulation. I am sure you want your child to go to a secular humanist school. I have no problem with that. But should you have a problem if I want to send my kid to a Muslim school? Why is your Religon more protected than mine? The absence of a religion is still a religion.

[jstoesz]

All of this follows to the elemental problem with public schools…They are a one size fits all legislative control arm from Washington. In one of the most intimate aspects of our lives. There are no choices (I guess they are limited with charter schools and the financially prohibitive private schools). If people can go where they choose, this debate we are having is moot. The solution to this problem is freedom not more regulation. I am sure you want your child to go to a secular humanist school. I have no problem with that. But should you have a problem if I want to send my kid to a Muslim school? Why is your Religon more protected than mine? The absence of a religion is still a religion.

[jstoesz]

All of this follows to the elemental problem with public schools…They are a one size fits all legislative control arm from Washington. In one of the most intimate aspects of our lives. There are no choices (I guess they are limited with charter schools and the financially prohibitive private schools). If people can go where they choose, this debate we are having is moot. The solution to this problem is freedom not more regulation. I am sure you want your child to go to a secular humanist school. I have no problem with that. But should you have a problem if I want to send my kid to a Muslim school? Why is your Religon more protected than mine? The absence of a religion is still a religion.

[jstoesz]

All of this follows to the elemental problem with public schools…They are a one size fits all legislative control arm from Washington. In one of the most intimate aspects of our lives. There are no choices (I guess they are limited with charter schools and the financially prohibitive private schools). If people can go where they choose, this debate we are having is moot. The solution to this problem is freedom not more regulation. I am sure you want your child to go to a secular humanist school. I have no problem with that. But should you have a problem if I want to send my kid to a Muslim school? Why is your Religon more protected than mine? The absence of a religion is still a religion.

[jstoesz]

All of this follows to the elemental problem with public schools…They are a one size fits all legislative control arm from Washington. In one of the most intimate aspects of our lives. There are no choices (I guess they are limited with charter schools and the financially prohibitive private schools). If people can go where they choose, this debate we are having is moot. The solution to this problem is freedom not more regulation. I am sure you want your child to go to a secular humanist school. I have no problem with that. But should you have a problem if I want to send my kid to a Muslim school? Why is your Religon more protected than mine? The absence of a religion is still a religion.

[jstoesz]

you guys are missing the point. What is this obsession about determining what my kid should learn in school? I do not want to tell you what your child should learn in school.

A school could teach the Epic of Gilgamesh for all I care. (I think mine actually did) It is not my business what you want your child to learn…or not learn.

If you want to keep religion from people, you are as much a fascist as someone who wants to push it on someone. Stop making government take a side on the issue, and we will have a true separation. Ambivalence is the solution not prohibition.

[quote]Those who would seek to eliminate “Separation of Church and State” in the name of local control can look to the consequences of eliminating oversight of the financial industry.[/quote]

Hah. That is perfect.

The banks operated in a vacuum…and the only thing that enabled them to do so much damage was the reduction in regulations. Totally…yeah…its all the regulation removals fault…definitely…and those right wing retards…

Not only is this a complete non sequitur, it is worse. It is simple minded.

[jstoesz]

you guys are missing the point. What is this obsession about determining what my kid should learn in school? I do not want to tell you what your child should learn in school.

A school could teach the Epic of Gilgamesh for all I care. (I think mine actually did) It is not my business what you want your child to learn…or not learn.

If you want to keep religion from people, you are as much a fascist as someone who wants to push it on someone. Stop making government take a side on the issue, and we will have a true separation. Ambivalence is the solution not prohibition.

[quote]Those who would seek to eliminate “Separation of Church and State” in the name of local control can look to the consequences of eliminating oversight of the financial industry.[/quote]

Hah. That is perfect.

The banks operated in a vacuum…and the only thing that enabled them to do so much damage was the reduction in regulations. Totally…yeah…its all the regulation removals fault…definitely…and those right wing retards…

Not only is this a complete non sequitur, it is worse. It is simple minded.

[jstoesz]

you guys are missing the point. What is this obsession about determining what my kid should learn in school? I do not want to tell you what your child should learn in school.

A school could teach the Epic of Gilgamesh for all I care. (I think mine actually did) It is not my business what you want your child to learn…or not learn.

If you want to keep religion from people, you are as much a fascist as someone who wants to push it on someone. Stop making government take a side on the issue, and we will have a true separation. Ambivalence is the solution not prohibition.

[quote]Those who would seek to eliminate “Separation of Church and State” in the name of local control can look to the consequences of eliminating oversight of the financial industry.[/quote]

Hah. That is perfect.

The banks operated in a vacuum…and the only thing that enabled them to do so much damage was the reduction in regulations. Totally…yeah…its all the regulation removals fault…definitely…and those right wing retards…

Not only is this a complete non sequitur, it is worse. It is simple minded.

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