[equalizer]

[quote=EconProf]Debate about the military-industrial complex will soon be replaced by talk about the education-industrial complex. Higher education is grossly oversold by a cabal of educrats, professors, politicians, lenders, and other vested interests. The rate of return on college degrees is wildly overstated for several reasons:
1. The lifetime ROR data are for past years and decades, and do not take into account the current experience of recent college graduates in today’s job market–which is not likely to improve much in the near future.
2. The ROR studies do not consider the personal characteristics that differentiate college-bound HS graduates from the non-college-bound. The former generally are already somewhat smarter, more ambitious, better spoken, better connected, have more family wealth, etc., on average. Accordingly, their lifetime earnings would be expected to be higher regardless of college. How much of their higher income can be attributed solely to going to college? That is the question never posed to those overselling college degrees.
3. The type of degree granted matters hugely. My daughter graduated from the afore-mentioned Harvey Mudd College in 2003 and has made little money because her major was English (some coursework taken at adjoining Scripps College). Is now starting on a master’s degree in Accountancy to remedy the earnings problem.
In short, college has been hugely oversold by vested interests, and the victims are the indebted-for-life graduates struggling with dashed job hopes.
If there is one thing to be learned from this experience, it is that incentives matter. In the same way that the housing bubble became so big for so long was because the participants all had the incentives in front of them to keep it going (lenders, buyers, RE professionals, Fannie/Freddie, politicians), so also the education industry has grown due to incentives. Professors’ work loads have fallen over the years and their compensation (especially on a per-hour basis) usually exceeds what they could make in the private sector. College administrative staffs have exploded in number and compensation. Campus facilities and dorms are towers of excess. The students and their parents see college not as an intellectual pursuit but as a consumption item (social life, status, etc), with the degree devalued since “everybody has one”…
As a nation, our pursuit of credentials has left us overeducated in the formal sense of having degrees, but without knowledge and introspection in a broader sense. We are now awakening to this and college enrollements will have a much-needed downward adjustment.[/quote]
Here is Mish stating same thing while back:

“As long as government is willing to “help out” with student loans, universities and colleges will keep raising prices, and the total cost of an education will keep soaring until one day it blows sky high, just as happened with mortgages.

Note that the loans are guaranteed by the government. Also note that student loans are not discharged in bankruptcy. Those two facts are all you need to understand why the financial industry as a whole consistently champions the promise of postsecondary education and its value to American society. No one really gives a damn about the students. Worse yet, were funding cut off, there would be student outrage over it when stopping funding is exactly what is needed to bring costs down.”

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/10/remarkable-comparison-affordable.html

[equalizer]

[quote=flu]

I don’t understand a lot of these fly by schools like University of Phoenix, Kaplan Devry,etc. A lot of them are a waste of money imho…

I think you’re oversimplying this and overgeneralizing that college/university is not necessary. It depends on what. If at all, in the right programs/career selections, it opens doors rather than shuts them. And of course, there are just some programs that are just waste of time.[/quote]
Frontline had a big story this spring on the private schools that documented graduation rates at for profit schools are half what they are at other schools. “Only 24.5% of for profit students graduate in six years with a degree. They enroll 10 percent of all post-secondary students, for-profit schools receive almost a quarter of federal financial aid. 86 percent of their revenue from federally backed student loans and that another significant source of Phoenix’s revenue is tuition paid for by federally backed loans for students in the US military So much for private sector.”
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/collegeinc/

“Students who took out government loans to pay for their education at for-profit colleges had a 21% default rate in the first three years they were required to make payments”
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB126075983194590097.html

[equalizer]

[quote=flu]

I don’t understand a lot of these fly by schools like University of Phoenix, Kaplan Devry,etc. A lot of them are a waste of money imho…

I think you’re oversimplying this and overgeneralizing that college/university is not necessary. It depends on what. If at all, in the right programs/career selections, it opens doors rather than shuts them. And of course, there are just some programs that are just waste of time.[/quote]
Frontline had a big story this spring on the private schools that documented graduation rates at for profit schools are half what they are at other schools. “Only 24.5% of for profit students graduate in six years with a degree. They enroll 10 percent of all post-secondary students, for-profit schools receive almost a quarter of federal financial aid. 86 percent of their revenue from federally backed student loans and that another significant source of Phoenix’s revenue is tuition paid for by federally backed loans for students in the US military So much for private sector.”
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/collegeinc/

“Students who took out government loans to pay for their education at for-profit colleges had a 21% default rate in the first three years they were required to make payments”
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB126075983194590097.html

[equalizer]

[quote=flu]

I don’t understand a lot of these fly by schools like University of Phoenix, Kaplan Devry,etc. A lot of them are a waste of money imho…

I think you’re oversimplying this and overgeneralizing that college/university is not necessary. It depends on what. If at all, in the right programs/career selections, it opens doors rather than shuts them. And of course, there are just some programs that are just waste of time.[/quote]
Frontline had a big story this spring on the private schools that documented graduation rates at for profit schools are half what they are at other schools. “Only 24.5% of for profit students graduate in six years with a degree. They enroll 10 percent of all post-secondary students, for-profit schools receive almost a quarter of federal financial aid. 86 percent of their revenue from federally backed student loans and that another significant source of Phoenix’s revenue is tuition paid for by federally backed loans for students in the US military So much for private sector.”
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/collegeinc/

“Students who took out government loans to pay for their education at for-profit colleges had a 21% default rate in the first three years they were required to make payments”
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB126075983194590097.html

[equalizer]

[quote=flu]

I don’t understand a lot of these fly by schools like University of Phoenix, Kaplan Devry,etc. A lot of them are a waste of money imho…

I think you’re oversimplying this and overgeneralizing that college/university is not necessary. It depends on what. If at all, in the right programs/career selections, it opens doors rather than shuts them. And of course, there are just some programs that are just waste of time.[/quote]
Frontline had a big story this spring on the private schools that documented graduation rates at for profit schools are half what they are at other schools. “Only 24.5% of for profit students graduate in six years with a degree. They enroll 10 percent of all post-secondary students, for-profit schools receive almost a quarter of federal financial aid. 86 percent of their revenue from federally backed student loans and that another significant source of Phoenix’s revenue is tuition paid for by federally backed loans for students in the US military So much for private sector.”
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/collegeinc/

“Students who took out government loans to pay for their education at for-profit colleges had a 21% default rate in the first three years they were required to make payments”
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB126075983194590097.html

[equalizer]

[quote=flu]

I don’t understand a lot of these fly by schools like University of Phoenix, Kaplan Devry,etc. A lot of them are a waste of money imho…

I think you’re oversimplying this and overgeneralizing that college/university is not necessary. It depends on what. If at all, in the right programs/career selections, it opens doors rather than shuts them. And of course, there are just some programs that are just waste of time.[/quote]
Frontline had a big story this spring on the private schools that documented graduation rates at for profit schools are half what they are at other schools. “Only 24.5% of for profit students graduate in six years with a degree. They enroll 10 percent of all post-secondary students, for-profit schools receive almost a quarter of federal financial aid. 86 percent of their revenue from federally backed student loans and that another significant source of Phoenix’s revenue is tuition paid for by federally backed loans for students in the US military So much for private sector.”
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/collegeinc/

“Students who took out government loans to pay for their education at for-profit colleges had a 21% default rate in the first three years they were required to make payments”
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB126075983194590097.html

[equalizer]

[quote=LAAFTERHOURS]Grew up in Orange County and was a lakers fan through the good years – Magic, Rambis, Kareem, Worthy etc.

I hate the NBA now, its a bunch of hacks doing just that… Seeing how many time they can get fouled and get to the line. Dont get me wrong, Kobe and others have talent but I think the NBA is a theatrical joke.

Dont really care who wins.. want the lakers to win because of the past and because they are socal, want the east coast to win bc im not a big fan of kobe.[/quote]
Yeah, the good old days. Kobe was shooting 30% in last game. Much rather watch Worthy, Kareem, Magic and Riley in 85-87 Lakers DVD on Netflix.

[equalizer]

[quote=LAAFTERHOURS]Grew up in Orange County and was a lakers fan through the good years – Magic, Rambis, Kareem, Worthy etc.

I hate the NBA now, its a bunch of hacks doing just that… Seeing how many time they can get fouled and get to the line. Dont get me wrong, Kobe and others have talent but I think the NBA is a theatrical joke.

Dont really care who wins.. want the lakers to win because of the past and because they are socal, want the east coast to win bc im not a big fan of kobe.[/quote]
Yeah, the good old days. Kobe was shooting 30% in last game. Much rather watch Worthy, Kareem, Magic and Riley in 85-87 Lakers DVD on Netflix.

[equalizer]

[quote=LAAFTERHOURS]Grew up in Orange County and was a lakers fan through the good years – Magic, Rambis, Kareem, Worthy etc.

I hate the NBA now, its a bunch of hacks doing just that… Seeing how many time they can get fouled and get to the line. Dont get me wrong, Kobe and others have talent but I think the NBA is a theatrical joke.

Dont really care who wins.. want the lakers to win because of the past and because they are socal, want the east coast to win bc im not a big fan of kobe.[/quote]
Yeah, the good old days. Kobe was shooting 30% in last game. Much rather watch Worthy, Kareem, Magic and Riley in 85-87 Lakers DVD on Netflix.

[equalizer]

[quote=LAAFTERHOURS]Grew up in Orange County and was a lakers fan through the good years – Magic, Rambis, Kareem, Worthy etc.

I hate the NBA now, its a bunch of hacks doing just that… Seeing how many time they can get fouled and get to the line. Dont get me wrong, Kobe and others have talent but I think the NBA is a theatrical joke.

Dont really care who wins.. want the lakers to win because of the past and because they are socal, want the east coast to win bc im not a big fan of kobe.[/quote]
Yeah, the good old days. Kobe was shooting 30% in last game. Much rather watch Worthy, Kareem, Magic and Riley in 85-87 Lakers DVD on Netflix.

[equalizer]

[quote=LAAFTERHOURS]Grew up in Orange County and was a lakers fan through the good years – Magic, Rambis, Kareem, Worthy etc.

I hate the NBA now, its a bunch of hacks doing just that… Seeing how many time they can get fouled and get to the line. Dont get me wrong, Kobe and others have talent but I think the NBA is a theatrical joke.

Dont really care who wins.. want the lakers to win because of the past and because they are socal, want the east coast to win bc im not a big fan of kobe.[/quote]
Yeah, the good old days. Kobe was shooting 30% in last game. Much rather watch Worthy, Kareem, Magic and Riley in 85-87 Lakers DVD on Netflix.

[equalizer]

Allan,

You are the expert in the “broadly defined” refinery field so I’m sure you know most of these details.

Since BP bought Amoco in 1998, they have been plagued with much higher rates of accidents than Exxon. BP excelled at improving efficiency and profits to please fat cats like me and others on Wall Street.

The U.S. Chemical Statement and Hazard Investigation Board in 2007 found BP fostered bad management at the plant and that cost-cutting moves by BP were factors in the Texas City explosion.

Judge Richard Posner (eminent legal scholar, UofChicago professor, (Milton disciple) has for decades argued for less government interference, but in the last 2 years he has changed in my mind on regulation is bad after the financial nightmare of the last few years. I’m sure this latest tragedy in Gulf would also lean him toward tighter regulation. Palin should give this a read from her local paper “Free-market economist changes tune” http://www.adn.com/2010/04/15/1228127/free-market-economist-changes.html#ixzz0lHniBEds

Judge Posner has a great blog with economist Gary Becker. http://uchicagolaw.typepad.com/beckerposner/

The WSJ reports from this week further implicate BP in the Gulf rig explosion that killed 11 and injured many others. Whatever errors the other firms made, they claim that BP was the boss and so dictated all decisions. Leasing the rig at $1M per day, and over budget, BP appears to have taken shortcuts.

The industry will take a big hit for BP not following best practices, to be charitable. Instead of blaming BP or paying more bribes to Congress, the industry should take lead by having Lee Raymond (former Exxon CEO) explaining need for Gulf Oil and how he will personally guarantee new guidelines for the industry. They should also attempt to show goodwill with the public by hiring someone like Oprah to explain to the people their respect for safety, the environment and need for public to pay for safety.

The Texas City refinery explosion in 2005 killed 15 and injured 170.

The law firm BCA worked for Rowe’s settlement. Instead of taking the money and signing the abhorrent NDA (note to SCOTUS: ban NDAs in the name of safety, free speech) , the daughter fought hard to improve safety for future . “the total amount of which remains confidential, as do other plaintiffs’ settlements — secured funds for the hefty charity program and made public more than 7 million pages of court documents that helped bring to light safety lapses that led to the blast. Rowe expressed her gratitude that numerous endowments — established with $44 million included in her settlement with the British oil company — were improving safety in the refining industry.
Texas A&M has educated more engineers in process safety and has launched new research into fires, explosives and fire suppression, said Dr. Sam Mannan, of the university’s Mary Kay O’Connor Process Safety Center. It got $12.5 million and $2 million for a matching grant program. The University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston, where many of the injured were taken after the explosion, has trained 30 doctors from around the world in burn and trauma treatment, and has developed new medicines, said Dr. David Herndon of UTMB, which also got $12.5 million and $2 million for a matching grant program. College of the Mainland, a community college in Texas City, has established the Gulf Coast Safety Institute, along with a new degree program in occupational safety and health technology, said Monica O’Neal, who directs the college’s foundation. The college got $5 million and $2 million for a matching grant program.

http://www.rememberthe15.com/rt15_news?post_id=878

[equalizer]

Allan,

You are the expert in the “broadly defined” refinery field so I’m sure you know most of these details.

Since BP bought Amoco in 1998, they have been plagued with much higher rates of accidents than Exxon. BP excelled at improving efficiency and profits to please fat cats like me and others on Wall Street.

The U.S. Chemical Statement and Hazard Investigation Board in 2007 found BP fostered bad management at the plant and that cost-cutting moves by BP were factors in the Texas City explosion.

Judge Richard Posner (eminent legal scholar, UofChicago professor, (Milton disciple) has for decades argued for less government interference, but in the last 2 years he has changed in my mind on regulation is bad after the financial nightmare of the last few years. I’m sure this latest tragedy in Gulf would also lean him toward tighter regulation. Palin should give this a read from her local paper “Free-market economist changes tune” http://www.adn.com/2010/04/15/1228127/free-market-economist-changes.html#ixzz0lHniBEds

Judge Posner has a great blog with economist Gary Becker. http://uchicagolaw.typepad.com/beckerposner/

The WSJ reports from this week further implicate BP in the Gulf rig explosion that killed 11 and injured many others. Whatever errors the other firms made, they claim that BP was the boss and so dictated all decisions. Leasing the rig at $1M per day, and over budget, BP appears to have taken shortcuts.

The industry will take a big hit for BP not following best practices, to be charitable. Instead of blaming BP or paying more bribes to Congress, the industry should take lead by having Lee Raymond (former Exxon CEO) explaining need for Gulf Oil and how he will personally guarantee new guidelines for the industry. They should also attempt to show goodwill with the public by hiring someone like Oprah to explain to the people their respect for safety, the environment and need for public to pay for safety.

The Texas City refinery explosion in 2005 killed 15 and injured 170.

The law firm BCA worked for Rowe’s settlement. Instead of taking the money and signing the abhorrent NDA (note to SCOTUS: ban NDAs in the name of safety, free speech) , the daughter fought hard to improve safety for future . “the total amount of which remains confidential, as do other plaintiffs’ settlements — secured funds for the hefty charity program and made public more than 7 million pages of court documents that helped bring to light safety lapses that led to the blast. Rowe expressed her gratitude that numerous endowments — established with $44 million included in her settlement with the British oil company — were improving safety in the refining industry.
Texas A&M has educated more engineers in process safety and has launched new research into fires, explosives and fire suppression, said Dr. Sam Mannan, of the university’s Mary Kay O’Connor Process Safety Center. It got $12.5 million and $2 million for a matching grant program. The University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston, where many of the injured were taken after the explosion, has trained 30 doctors from around the world in burn and trauma treatment, and has developed new medicines, said Dr. David Herndon of UTMB, which also got $12.5 million and $2 million for a matching grant program. College of the Mainland, a community college in Texas City, has established the Gulf Coast Safety Institute, along with a new degree program in occupational safety and health technology, said Monica O’Neal, who directs the college’s foundation. The college got $5 million and $2 million for a matching grant program.

http://www.rememberthe15.com/rt15_news?post_id=878

[equalizer]

Allan,

You are the expert in the “broadly defined” refinery field so I’m sure you know most of these details.

Since BP bought Amoco in 1998, they have been plagued with much higher rates of accidents than Exxon. BP excelled at improving efficiency and profits to please fat cats like me and others on Wall Street.

The U.S. Chemical Statement and Hazard Investigation Board in 2007 found BP fostered bad management at the plant and that cost-cutting moves by BP were factors in the Texas City explosion.

Judge Richard Posner (eminent legal scholar, UofChicago professor, (Milton disciple) has for decades argued for less government interference, but in the last 2 years he has changed in my mind on regulation is bad after the financial nightmare of the last few years. I’m sure this latest tragedy in Gulf would also lean him toward tighter regulation. Palin should give this a read from her local paper “Free-market economist changes tune” http://www.adn.com/2010/04/15/1228127/free-market-economist-changes.html#ixzz0lHniBEds

Judge Posner has a great blog with economist Gary Becker. http://uchicagolaw.typepad.com/beckerposner/

The WSJ reports from this week further implicate BP in the Gulf rig explosion that killed 11 and injured many others. Whatever errors the other firms made, they claim that BP was the boss and so dictated all decisions. Leasing the rig at $1M per day, and over budget, BP appears to have taken shortcuts.

The industry will take a big hit for BP not following best practices, to be charitable. Instead of blaming BP or paying more bribes to Congress, the industry should take lead by having Lee Raymond (former Exxon CEO) explaining need for Gulf Oil and how he will personally guarantee new guidelines for the industry. They should also attempt to show goodwill with the public by hiring someone like Oprah to explain to the people their respect for safety, the environment and need for public to pay for safety.

The Texas City refinery explosion in 2005 killed 15 and injured 170.

The law firm BCA worked for Rowe’s settlement. Instead of taking the money and signing the abhorrent NDA (note to SCOTUS: ban NDAs in the name of safety, free speech) , the daughter fought hard to improve safety for future . “the total amount of which remains confidential, as do other plaintiffs’ settlements — secured funds for the hefty charity program and made public more than 7 million pages of court documents that helped bring to light safety lapses that led to the blast. Rowe expressed her gratitude that numerous endowments — established with $44 million included in her settlement with the British oil company — were improving safety in the refining industry.
Texas A&M has educated more engineers in process safety and has launched new research into fires, explosives and fire suppression, said Dr. Sam Mannan, of the university’s Mary Kay O’Connor Process Safety Center. It got $12.5 million and $2 million for a matching grant program. The University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston, where many of the injured were taken after the explosion, has trained 30 doctors from around the world in burn and trauma treatment, and has developed new medicines, said Dr. David Herndon of UTMB, which also got $12.5 million and $2 million for a matching grant program. College of the Mainland, a community college in Texas City, has established the Gulf Coast Safety Institute, along with a new degree program in occupational safety and health technology, said Monica O’Neal, who directs the college’s foundation. The college got $5 million and $2 million for a matching grant program.

http://www.rememberthe15.com/rt15_news?post_id=878

[equalizer]

Allan,

You are the expert in the “broadly defined” refinery field so I’m sure you know most of these details.

Since BP bought Amoco in 1998, they have been plagued with much higher rates of accidents than Exxon. BP excelled at improving efficiency and profits to please fat cats like me and others on Wall Street.

The U.S. Chemical Statement and Hazard Investigation Board in 2007 found BP fostered bad management at the plant and that cost-cutting moves by BP were factors in the Texas City explosion.

Judge Richard Posner (eminent legal scholar, UofChicago professor, (Milton disciple) has for decades argued for less government interference, but in the last 2 years he has changed in my mind on regulation is bad after the financial nightmare of the last few years. I’m sure this latest tragedy in Gulf would also lean him toward tighter regulation. Palin should give this a read from her local paper “Free-market economist changes tune” http://www.adn.com/2010/04/15/1228127/free-market-economist-changes.html#ixzz0lHniBEds

Judge Posner has a great blog with economist Gary Becker. http://uchicagolaw.typepad.com/beckerposner/

The WSJ reports from this week further implicate BP in the Gulf rig explosion that killed 11 and injured many others. Whatever errors the other firms made, they claim that BP was the boss and so dictated all decisions. Leasing the rig at $1M per day, and over budget, BP appears to have taken shortcuts.

The industry will take a big hit for BP not following best practices, to be charitable. Instead of blaming BP or paying more bribes to Congress, the industry should take lead by having Lee Raymond (former Exxon CEO) explaining need for Gulf Oil and how he will personally guarantee new guidelines for the industry. They should also attempt to show goodwill with the public by hiring someone like Oprah to explain to the people their respect for safety, the environment and need for public to pay for safety.

The Texas City refinery explosion in 2005 killed 15 and injured 170.

The law firm BCA worked for Rowe’s settlement. Instead of taking the money and signing the abhorrent NDA (note to SCOTUS: ban NDAs in the name of safety, free speech) , the daughter fought hard to improve safety for future . “the total amount of which remains confidential, as do other plaintiffs’ settlements — secured funds for the hefty charity program and made public more than 7 million pages of court documents that helped bring to light safety lapses that led to the blast. Rowe expressed her gratitude that numerous endowments — established with $44 million included in her settlement with the British oil company — were improving safety in the refining industry.
Texas A&M has educated more engineers in process safety and has launched new research into fires, explosives and fire suppression, said Dr. Sam Mannan, of the university’s Mary Kay O’Connor Process Safety Center. It got $12.5 million and $2 million for a matching grant program. The University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston, where many of the injured were taken after the explosion, has trained 30 doctors from around the world in burn and trauma treatment, and has developed new medicines, said Dr. David Herndon of UTMB, which also got $12.5 million and $2 million for a matching grant program. College of the Mainland, a community college in Texas City, has established the Gulf Coast Safety Institute, along with a new degree program in occupational safety and health technology, said Monica O’Neal, who directs the college’s foundation. The college got $5 million and $2 million for a matching grant program.

http://www.rememberthe15.com/rt15_news?post_id=878

[Author]

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