[DWCAP]

[quote=justme][quote=sdduuuude]Our mutual rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness don’t, however, give the government the right to borrow money, spend it on stupid crap, then come after us and our grandchildren to pay it back.

In fact those very rights should prevent them from doing just that. Sadly, the constitution seems to no longer hold them back.

It is neither my borrowing, nor yours that will saddle future generations with massive debt. It is the government’s.[/quote]

So we have established the double standard that you have:

Monetary deficits are bad, energy deficits are not a problem.

In the end, your grandchildrens lives will be me much worse off from the energy deficit. All hail your special brand of personal freedom.[/quote]

I disagree that you have estabolished a double standard. Your argument can be run in reverse as well.

If the use of finite resources will leave our children worse off, then we should stop all use of them immediatly. But if we shut down our transportation industries, wont future generations be worse off as our economy implodes?

Wise spending, even deficit spending, will return future rewards in excess of costs. This improves the lives of future generations, making any remaining debts easily taken care of with extra to spare. The problem is when we go out and blow it all and have nothing to show for it. But who is to decide what ‘wise’ is? Is building a house out in BFE a wise decision, even if that person now needs to commute long distinces and use alot of gas? Well, it improved the value of the land in BFE, so maybe it is. At one time, Carmel valley was considered BFE, now it is prime RE, generating value for future generations.

What is wise and not wise if often far harder to figure out than you are making it out to be. (Carbon) Energy deficits are structural due to their limited amount of resource, Monitary deficits are not necessarly structural and as such not limited to the same constraints.

[DWCAP]

[quote=justme][quote=sdduuuude]Our mutual rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness don’t, however, give the government the right to borrow money, spend it on stupid crap, then come after us and our grandchildren to pay it back.

In fact those very rights should prevent them from doing just that. Sadly, the constitution seems to no longer hold them back.

It is neither my borrowing, nor yours that will saddle future generations with massive debt. It is the government’s.[/quote]

So we have established the double standard that you have:

Monetary deficits are bad, energy deficits are not a problem.

In the end, your grandchildrens lives will be me much worse off from the energy deficit. All hail your special brand of personal freedom.[/quote]

I disagree that you have estabolished a double standard. Your argument can be run in reverse as well.

If the use of finite resources will leave our children worse off, then we should stop all use of them immediatly. But if we shut down our transportation industries, wont future generations be worse off as our economy implodes?

Wise spending, even deficit spending, will return future rewards in excess of costs. This improves the lives of future generations, making any remaining debts easily taken care of with extra to spare. The problem is when we go out and blow it all and have nothing to show for it. But who is to decide what ‘wise’ is? Is building a house out in BFE a wise decision, even if that person now needs to commute long distinces and use alot of gas? Well, it improved the value of the land in BFE, so maybe it is. At one time, Carmel valley was considered BFE, now it is prime RE, generating value for future generations.

What is wise and not wise if often far harder to figure out than you are making it out to be. (Carbon) Energy deficits are structural due to their limited amount of resource, Monitary deficits are not necessarly structural and as such not limited to the same constraints.

[DWCAP]

[quote=afx114][quote=DWCAP]WHAT HAPPENS IN 2014[/quote]

Right, I was referring only to this provision (trying to keep the thread on topic). If we want to have a broader conversation on the entire health care plan or insurance in general we can.

Anyone care to estimate what our car insurance rates would be if they were not mandated?[/quote]

yawn, sure. I am sure you had no idea what the ‘forced’ part was and were so confused you had to ask.

Going back to my original post, that is the math the health care bill was balanced upon. Young people have to buy insurance to help bring the total cost per person down (provision delayed till 2014 to give political cover) and they can stay on parental plans to help people at the lowest parts of their career pay scale afford it. ie the lady on NPR.

That is still very much, ‘on topic’. I gave no opinions on the bill as a whole. If Flu wants to know ‘why this is possible’; well there it is.

[DWCAP]

[quote=afx114][quote=DWCAP]WHAT HAPPENS IN 2014[/quote]

Right, I was referring only to this provision (trying to keep the thread on topic). If we want to have a broader conversation on the entire health care plan or insurance in general we can.

Anyone care to estimate what our car insurance rates would be if they were not mandated?[/quote]

yawn, sure. I am sure you had no idea what the ‘forced’ part was and were so confused you had to ask.

Going back to my original post, that is the math the health care bill was balanced upon. Young people have to buy insurance to help bring the total cost per person down (provision delayed till 2014 to give political cover) and they can stay on parental plans to help people at the lowest parts of their career pay scale afford it. ie the lady on NPR.

That is still very much, ‘on topic’. I gave no opinions on the bill as a whole. If Flu wants to know ‘why this is possible’; well there it is.

[DWCAP]

[quote=afx114][quote=DWCAP]WHAT HAPPENS IN 2014[/quote]

Right, I was referring only to this provision (trying to keep the thread on topic). If we want to have a broader conversation on the entire health care plan or insurance in general we can.

Anyone care to estimate what our car insurance rates would be if they were not mandated?[/quote]

yawn, sure. I am sure you had no idea what the ‘forced’ part was and were so confused you had to ask.

Going back to my original post, that is the math the health care bill was balanced upon. Young people have to buy insurance to help bring the total cost per person down (provision delayed till 2014 to give political cover) and they can stay on parental plans to help people at the lowest parts of their career pay scale afford it. ie the lady on NPR.

That is still very much, ‘on topic’. I gave no opinions on the bill as a whole. If Flu wants to know ‘why this is possible’; well there it is.

[DWCAP]

[quote=afx114][quote=DWCAP]WHAT HAPPENS IN 2014[/quote]

Right, I was referring only to this provision (trying to keep the thread on topic). If we want to have a broader conversation on the entire health care plan or insurance in general we can.

Anyone care to estimate what our car insurance rates would be if they were not mandated?[/quote]

yawn, sure. I am sure you had no idea what the ‘forced’ part was and were so confused you had to ask.

Going back to my original post, that is the math the health care bill was balanced upon. Young people have to buy insurance to help bring the total cost per person down (provision delayed till 2014 to give political cover) and they can stay on parental plans to help people at the lowest parts of their career pay scale afford it. ie the lady on NPR.

That is still very much, ‘on topic’. I gave no opinions on the bill as a whole. If Flu wants to know ‘why this is possible’; well there it is.

[DWCAP]

[quote=afx114][quote=DWCAP]WHAT HAPPENS IN 2014[/quote]

Right, I was referring only to this provision (trying to keep the thread on topic). If we want to have a broader conversation on the entire health care plan or insurance in general we can.

Anyone care to estimate what our car insurance rates would be if they were not mandated?[/quote]

yawn, sure. I am sure you had no idea what the ‘forced’ part was and were so confused you had to ask.

Going back to my original post, that is the math the health care bill was balanced upon. Young people have to buy insurance to help bring the total cost per person down (provision delayed till 2014 to give political cover) and they can stay on parental plans to help people at the lowest parts of their career pay scale afford it. ie the lady on NPR.

That is still very much, ‘on topic’. I gave no opinions on the bill as a whole. If Flu wants to know ‘why this is possible’; well there it is.

[DWCAP]

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2014

*State health insurance exchanges for small businesses and individuals open.

*Most people will be required to obtain health insurance coverage or pay a fine if they don’t. Healthcare tax credits become available to help people with incomes up to 400 percent of poverty purchase coverage on the exchange.

*Health plans no longer can exclude people from coverage due to pre-existing conditions

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1914020220100319?pageNumber=2

[DWCAP]

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2014

*State health insurance exchanges for small businesses and individuals open.

*Most people will be required to obtain health insurance coverage or pay a fine if they don’t. Healthcare tax credits become available to help people with incomes up to 400 percent of poverty purchase coverage on the exchange.

*Health plans no longer can exclude people from coverage due to pre-existing conditions

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1914020220100319?pageNumber=2

[DWCAP]

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2014

*State health insurance exchanges for small businesses and individuals open.

*Most people will be required to obtain health insurance coverage or pay a fine if they don’t. Healthcare tax credits become available to help people with incomes up to 400 percent of poverty purchase coverage on the exchange.

*Health plans no longer can exclude people from coverage due to pre-existing conditions

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1914020220100319?pageNumber=2

[DWCAP]

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2014

*State health insurance exchanges for small businesses and individuals open.

*Most people will be required to obtain health insurance coverage or pay a fine if they don’t. Healthcare tax credits become available to help people with incomes up to 400 percent of poverty purchase coverage on the exchange.

*Health plans no longer can exclude people from coverage due to pre-existing conditions

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1914020220100319?pageNumber=2

[DWCAP]

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2014

*State health insurance exchanges for small businesses and individuals open.

*Most people will be required to obtain health insurance coverage or pay a fine if they don’t. Healthcare tax credits become available to help people with incomes up to 400 percent of poverty purchase coverage on the exchange.

*Health plans no longer can exclude people from coverage due to pre-existing conditions

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1914020220100319?pageNumber=2

[DWCAP]

[quote=afx114][quote=CONCHO]I like how our national plan to fix the problem of crappy healthcare insurance is to force everyone to purchase crappy healthcare insurance. What a country![/quote]

Again, where does “force” come into the equation? Lots of under-25s will be joining voluntarily because they will be able to get coverage much cheaper on their parents’ plan than if they went shopping for it on their own. The cost barrier has been lowered for millions of people, yet somehow this is “forcing” them into the system? They don’t have to sign up if they don’t want do. How is this a mandate?[/quote]

You are right AFX, no part of THIS PROVISION, of the health care plan forces participation. THe provision that forces participation doesnt take effect until 2014. Assuming we are talking some sort of longer term than 2010-2013, you are forced as a 22 year old to get insurance when you were previously not.

[DWCAP]

[quote=afx114][quote=CONCHO]I like how our national plan to fix the problem of crappy healthcare insurance is to force everyone to purchase crappy healthcare insurance. What a country![/quote]

Again, where does “force” come into the equation? Lots of under-25s will be joining voluntarily because they will be able to get coverage much cheaper on their parents’ plan than if they went shopping for it on their own. The cost barrier has been lowered for millions of people, yet somehow this is “forcing” them into the system? They don’t have to sign up if they don’t want do. How is this a mandate?[/quote]

You are right AFX, no part of THIS PROVISION, of the health care plan forces participation. THe provision that forces participation doesnt take effect until 2014. Assuming we are talking some sort of longer term than 2010-2013, you are forced as a 22 year old to get insurance when you were previously not.

[DWCAP]

[quote=afx114][quote=CONCHO]I like how our national plan to fix the problem of crappy healthcare insurance is to force everyone to purchase crappy healthcare insurance. What a country![/quote]

Again, where does “force” come into the equation? Lots of under-25s will be joining voluntarily because they will be able to get coverage much cheaper on their parents’ plan than if they went shopping for it on their own. The cost barrier has been lowered for millions of people, yet somehow this is “forcing” them into the system? They don’t have to sign up if they don’t want do. How is this a mandate?[/quote]

You are right AFX, no part of THIS PROVISION, of the health care plan forces participation. THe provision that forces participation doesnt take effect until 2014. Assuming we are talking some sort of longer term than 2010-2013, you are forced as a 22 year old to get insurance when you were previously not.

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