[drboom]

I was going to refrain from adding yet more to this thread, but I can’t let this pass on Piggington of all places (emphasis added):

[quote=bearishgurl]What I’m saying here is that a serious buyer, at no cost to them, can get expert guidance from a professional RE agent specializing in their area of choice.[/quote]

Does anyone really believe there’s no cost to the buyer? I know the rather short history of “buyers’ agents”, and I’ve heard all the arguments from the RE industry. I’m the opposite of convinced.

It’s obvious that buyers pay most of the real estate industry’s monopoly rents because sellers, as a rule, factor commissions into their selling price. If you want proof, go ask your sellers if they would take less in a FSBO deal that had no commissions.

The worst part is that because commissions are part of the “purchase price”, they get rolled into the mortgage (yay, I get to pay double or more for my “no cost” services) and inflate the valuation for property taxes (hooray, I get to pay for my “no cost” services in perpetuity!).

There, I feel better.

[drboom]

I was going to refrain from adding yet more to this thread, but I can’t let this pass on Piggington of all places (emphasis added):

[quote=bearishgurl]What I’m saying here is that a serious buyer, at no cost to them, can get expert guidance from a professional RE agent specializing in their area of choice.[/quote]

Does anyone really believe there’s no cost to the buyer? I know the rather short history of “buyers’ agents”, and I’ve heard all the arguments from the RE industry. I’m the opposite of convinced.

It’s obvious that buyers pay most of the real estate industry’s monopoly rents because sellers, as a rule, factor commissions into their selling price. If you want proof, go ask your sellers if they would take less in a FSBO deal that had no commissions.

The worst part is that because commissions are part of the “purchase price”, they get rolled into the mortgage (yay, I get to pay double or more for my “no cost” services) and inflate the valuation for property taxes (hooray, I get to pay for my “no cost” services in perpetuity!).

There, I feel better.

[drboom]

[quote=sdrealtor]I meet real natives of this area who dont know a fraction of what I have learned from my colleagues and friends in the business.[/quote]

You seem to be smarter than the average bear, so that’s not too surprising–especially if it’s an unfamiliar part of town for the “native”, they spend their lives in front of the TV, or they are young.

But the average RE bear, especially one who hasn’t been here long, was worse than worthless to me when it came to the finer points of research. The usual stuff RE folks help with–crime maps, demographics, school district info, etc.–I can get online if necessary … but it’s not necessary because I know my ‘hood and my wife teaches in the district. They will also give me comps, but I can get those online–and not just the ones they pick out. The comps and listings included houses we had actually been in over the years, by the way, so we weren’t just looking at numbers.

I say “worse than worthless” because all I got were guesses or worse when it came to important neighborhood specifics: is so-and-so a busy street, is it quiet/noisy around here, are subsidence issues common around here, etc. I asked just to get a feel for the agents’ honesty, actually–I knew the answers already. Anyone who answered “I don’t know” got a brownie point; correct answers got a gold star. I didn’t award many stars.

But it really isn’t fair to the agents–how can you know more than my wife or I do unless you also had a paper route and did door-to-door band fundraisers in the neighborhoods 20-30 years ago … and have living relatives who did the same things in the same neighborhoods 40-70 years ago?

To ask your own question–can we be the only ones?

Note that I’m not discounting the other things a good buyer’s agent brings to the table. The way the system is set up, an inexperienced buyer on his/her own could get screwed ten different ways and never know it.

For the OP: if you use an agent, do your homework on pricing because your agent will NOT make direct suggestions about how much to offer or (often) how to negotiate the price–there are nasty liability issues for them, which is unfortunate because it’s an area where agents have truly unique experience.

Note that an agent will have a direct conflict of interest in this regard since his commission is helped by a higher selling price (not to mention that higher offers are more likely to be accepted). My agent admitted after the deal closed that he didn’t think my offer strategy would work when he wrote our offer and counter-offer, but it turned out he was mistaken since we paid 4% less than the highest offer and still got the house.

[drboom]

[quote=sdrealtor]I meet real natives of this area who dont know a fraction of what I have learned from my colleagues and friends in the business.[/quote]

You seem to be smarter than the average bear, so that’s not too surprising–especially if it’s an unfamiliar part of town for the “native”, they spend their lives in front of the TV, or they are young.

But the average RE bear, especially one who hasn’t been here long, was worse than worthless to me when it came to the finer points of research. The usual stuff RE folks help with–crime maps, demographics, school district info, etc.–I can get online if necessary … but it’s not necessary because I know my ‘hood and my wife teaches in the district. They will also give me comps, but I can get those online–and not just the ones they pick out. The comps and listings included houses we had actually been in over the years, by the way, so we weren’t just looking at numbers.

I say “worse than worthless” because all I got were guesses or worse when it came to important neighborhood specifics: is so-and-so a busy street, is it quiet/noisy around here, are subsidence issues common around here, etc. I asked just to get a feel for the agents’ honesty, actually–I knew the answers already. Anyone who answered “I don’t know” got a brownie point; correct answers got a gold star. I didn’t award many stars.

But it really isn’t fair to the agents–how can you know more than my wife or I do unless you also had a paper route and did door-to-door band fundraisers in the neighborhoods 20-30 years ago … and have living relatives who did the same things in the same neighborhoods 40-70 years ago?

To ask your own question–can we be the only ones?

Note that I’m not discounting the other things a good buyer’s agent brings to the table. The way the system is set up, an inexperienced buyer on his/her own could get screwed ten different ways and never know it.

For the OP: if you use an agent, do your homework on pricing because your agent will NOT make direct suggestions about how much to offer or (often) how to negotiate the price–there are nasty liability issues for them, which is unfortunate because it’s an area where agents have truly unique experience.

Note that an agent will have a direct conflict of interest in this regard since his commission is helped by a higher selling price (not to mention that higher offers are more likely to be accepted). My agent admitted after the deal closed that he didn’t think my offer strategy would work when he wrote our offer and counter-offer, but it turned out he was mistaken since we paid 4% less than the highest offer and still got the house.

[drboom]

[quote=sdrealtor]I meet real natives of this area who dont know a fraction of what I have learned from my colleagues and friends in the business.[/quote]

You seem to be smarter than the average bear, so that’s not too surprising–especially if it’s an unfamiliar part of town for the “native”, they spend their lives in front of the TV, or they are young.

But the average RE bear, especially one who hasn’t been here long, was worse than worthless to me when it came to the finer points of research. The usual stuff RE folks help with–crime maps, demographics, school district info, etc.–I can get online if necessary … but it’s not necessary because I know my ‘hood and my wife teaches in the district. They will also give me comps, but I can get those online–and not just the ones they pick out. The comps and listings included houses we had actually been in over the years, by the way, so we weren’t just looking at numbers.

I say “worse than worthless” because all I got were guesses or worse when it came to important neighborhood specifics: is so-and-so a busy street, is it quiet/noisy around here, are subsidence issues common around here, etc. I asked just to get a feel for the agents’ honesty, actually–I knew the answers already. Anyone who answered “I don’t know” got a brownie point; correct answers got a gold star. I didn’t award many stars.

But it really isn’t fair to the agents–how can you know more than my wife or I do unless you also had a paper route and did door-to-door band fundraisers in the neighborhoods 20-30 years ago … and have living relatives who did the same things in the same neighborhoods 40-70 years ago?

To ask your own question–can we be the only ones?

Note that I’m not discounting the other things a good buyer’s agent brings to the table. The way the system is set up, an inexperienced buyer on his/her own could get screwed ten different ways and never know it.

For the OP: if you use an agent, do your homework on pricing because your agent will NOT make direct suggestions about how much to offer or (often) how to negotiate the price–there are nasty liability issues for them, which is unfortunate because it’s an area where agents have truly unique experience.

Note that an agent will have a direct conflict of interest in this regard since his commission is helped by a higher selling price (not to mention that higher offers are more likely to be accepted). My agent admitted after the deal closed that he didn’t think my offer strategy would work when he wrote our offer and counter-offer, but it turned out he was mistaken since we paid 4% less than the highest offer and still got the house.

[drboom]

[quote=sdrealtor]I meet real natives of this area who dont know a fraction of what I have learned from my colleagues and friends in the business.[/quote]

You seem to be smarter than the average bear, so that’s not too surprising–especially if it’s an unfamiliar part of town for the “native”, they spend their lives in front of the TV, or they are young.

But the average RE bear, especially one who hasn’t been here long, was worse than worthless to me when it came to the finer points of research. The usual stuff RE folks help with–crime maps, demographics, school district info, etc.–I can get online if necessary … but it’s not necessary because I know my ‘hood and my wife teaches in the district. They will also give me comps, but I can get those online–and not just the ones they pick out. The comps and listings included houses we had actually been in over the years, by the way, so we weren’t just looking at numbers.

I say “worse than worthless” because all I got were guesses or worse when it came to important neighborhood specifics: is so-and-so a busy street, is it quiet/noisy around here, are subsidence issues common around here, etc. I asked just to get a feel for the agents’ honesty, actually–I knew the answers already. Anyone who answered “I don’t know” got a brownie point; correct answers got a gold star. I didn’t award many stars.

But it really isn’t fair to the agents–how can you know more than my wife or I do unless you also had a paper route and did door-to-door band fundraisers in the neighborhoods 20-30 years ago … and have living relatives who did the same things in the same neighborhoods 40-70 years ago?

To ask your own question–can we be the only ones?

Note that I’m not discounting the other things a good buyer’s agent brings to the table. The way the system is set up, an inexperienced buyer on his/her own could get screwed ten different ways and never know it.

For the OP: if you use an agent, do your homework on pricing because your agent will NOT make direct suggestions about how much to offer or (often) how to negotiate the price–there are nasty liability issues for them, which is unfortunate because it’s an area where agents have truly unique experience.

Note that an agent will have a direct conflict of interest in this regard since his commission is helped by a higher selling price (not to mention that higher offers are more likely to be accepted). My agent admitted after the deal closed that he didn’t think my offer strategy would work when he wrote our offer and counter-offer, but it turned out he was mistaken since we paid 4% less than the highest offer and still got the house.

[drboom]

[quote=sdrealtor]I meet real natives of this area who dont know a fraction of what I have learned from my colleagues and friends in the business.[/quote]

You seem to be smarter than the average bear, so that’s not too surprising–especially if it’s an unfamiliar part of town for the “native”, they spend their lives in front of the TV, or they are young.

But the average RE bear, especially one who hasn’t been here long, was worse than worthless to me when it came to the finer points of research. The usual stuff RE folks help with–crime maps, demographics, school district info, etc.–I can get online if necessary … but it’s not necessary because I know my ‘hood and my wife teaches in the district. They will also give me comps, but I can get those online–and not just the ones they pick out. The comps and listings included houses we had actually been in over the years, by the way, so we weren’t just looking at numbers.

I say “worse than worthless” because all I got were guesses or worse when it came to important neighborhood specifics: is so-and-so a busy street, is it quiet/noisy around here, are subsidence issues common around here, etc. I asked just to get a feel for the agents’ honesty, actually–I knew the answers already. Anyone who answered “I don’t know” got a brownie point; correct answers got a gold star. I didn’t award many stars.

But it really isn’t fair to the agents–how can you know more than my wife or I do unless you also had a paper route and did door-to-door band fundraisers in the neighborhoods 20-30 years ago … and have living relatives who did the same things in the same neighborhoods 40-70 years ago?

To ask your own question–can we be the only ones?

Note that I’m not discounting the other things a good buyer’s agent brings to the table. The way the system is set up, an inexperienced buyer on his/her own could get screwed ten different ways and never know it.

For the OP: if you use an agent, do your homework on pricing because your agent will NOT make direct suggestions about how much to offer or (often) how to negotiate the price–there are nasty liability issues for them, which is unfortunate because it’s an area where agents have truly unique experience.

Note that an agent will have a direct conflict of interest in this regard since his commission is helped by a higher selling price (not to mention that higher offers are more likely to be accepted). My agent admitted after the deal closed that he didn’t think my offer strategy would work when he wrote our offer and counter-offer, but it turned out he was mistaken since we paid 4% less than the highest offer and still got the house.

[drboom]

[quote=sdrealtor]Pretty much every buyer that has tried to go direct to me as a listing agent has been an utter waste of my time. When I have a lisitng I know I’ll get paid on one side which is enough for me. I’d rather spend my time trying to help buyers I know, like and respect. I’ve yet to meet one of those who tried to go direct. They all seem to have hidden agendasa that i dont have time for. They seem to like to think they are smarter than agents and figure than can outsmart us by going direct. Of course, thats not true and I know they are pulling the same pile of *(&(*& with a dozen other agents that they are calling also. I say good luck to them. Your quote that “I would expect that person to be more knowledgeable than an average buyer” is exactly the attitude I see from them. The smartest buyers have the best representation not NO representation.
[/quote]

Let me offer a counterpoint: my wife and I had a bunch of buyer’s agents blow smoke up our posteriors, including a member of my wife’s family who is a 20 year RE veteran. We couldn’t trust any of them, so I represented us through our first six months of serious shopping. There were some agents who didn’t want to have anything to do with me. Their loss. Others were cool with it and worked with me.

Long story short, we had a short sale that fell apart in the approval process (stupid BofA: the house is still vacant and on their books 18 months later). The seller’s agent on that deal asked us if we were interested in having him represent us on a 50% commission split; he knew we had the research squared away and that we wouldn’t waste his time. He’d proven himself to be a true professional throughout the deal, so we were happy to engage him. I’ve told the story elsewhere, but the short of it is that he showed us exactly one house and wrote exactly one offer (OK, and one counter) for us. The sale closed three months later (short sale). Easy money.

I understand you have to play the odds, but realize that some buyers might not have an agent precisely because they are serious and feel that too many in the RE biz do not act in their best interests.

Or maybe we’re just unique, like delicate snowflakes. 🙂

[drboom]

[quote=sdrealtor]Pretty much every buyer that has tried to go direct to me as a listing agent has been an utter waste of my time. When I have a lisitng I know I’ll get paid on one side which is enough for me. I’d rather spend my time trying to help buyers I know, like and respect. I’ve yet to meet one of those who tried to go direct. They all seem to have hidden agendasa that i dont have time for. They seem to like to think they are smarter than agents and figure than can outsmart us by going direct. Of course, thats not true and I know they are pulling the same pile of *(&(*& with a dozen other agents that they are calling also. I say good luck to them. Your quote that “I would expect that person to be more knowledgeable than an average buyer” is exactly the attitude I see from them. The smartest buyers have the best representation not NO representation.
[/quote]

Let me offer a counterpoint: my wife and I had a bunch of buyer’s agents blow smoke up our posteriors, including a member of my wife’s family who is a 20 year RE veteran. We couldn’t trust any of them, so I represented us through our first six months of serious shopping. There were some agents who didn’t want to have anything to do with me. Their loss. Others were cool with it and worked with me.

Long story short, we had a short sale that fell apart in the approval process (stupid BofA: the house is still vacant and on their books 18 months later). The seller’s agent on that deal asked us if we were interested in having him represent us on a 50% commission split; he knew we had the research squared away and that we wouldn’t waste his time. He’d proven himself to be a true professional throughout the deal, so we were happy to engage him. I’ve told the story elsewhere, but the short of it is that he showed us exactly one house and wrote exactly one offer (OK, and one counter) for us. The sale closed three months later (short sale). Easy money.

I understand you have to play the odds, but realize that some buyers might not have an agent precisely because they are serious and feel that too many in the RE biz do not act in their best interests.

Or maybe we’re just unique, like delicate snowflakes. 🙂

[drboom]

[quote=sdrealtor]Pretty much every buyer that has tried to go direct to me as a listing agent has been an utter waste of my time. When I have a lisitng I know I’ll get paid on one side which is enough for me. I’d rather spend my time trying to help buyers I know, like and respect. I’ve yet to meet one of those who tried to go direct. They all seem to have hidden agendasa that i dont have time for. They seem to like to think they are smarter than agents and figure than can outsmart us by going direct. Of course, thats not true and I know they are pulling the same pile of *(&(*& with a dozen other agents that they are calling also. I say good luck to them. Your quote that “I would expect that person to be more knowledgeable than an average buyer” is exactly the attitude I see from them. The smartest buyers have the best representation not NO representation.
[/quote]

Let me offer a counterpoint: my wife and I had a bunch of buyer’s agents blow smoke up our posteriors, including a member of my wife’s family who is a 20 year RE veteran. We couldn’t trust any of them, so I represented us through our first six months of serious shopping. There were some agents who didn’t want to have anything to do with me. Their loss. Others were cool with it and worked with me.

Long story short, we had a short sale that fell apart in the approval process (stupid BofA: the house is still vacant and on their books 18 months later). The seller’s agent on that deal asked us if we were interested in having him represent us on a 50% commission split; he knew we had the research squared away and that we wouldn’t waste his time. He’d proven himself to be a true professional throughout the deal, so we were happy to engage him. I’ve told the story elsewhere, but the short of it is that he showed us exactly one house and wrote exactly one offer (OK, and one counter) for us. The sale closed three months later (short sale). Easy money.

I understand you have to play the odds, but realize that some buyers might not have an agent precisely because they are serious and feel that too many in the RE biz do not act in their best interests.

Or maybe we’re just unique, like delicate snowflakes. 🙂

[drboom]

[quote=sdrealtor]Pretty much every buyer that has tried to go direct to me as a listing agent has been an utter waste of my time. When I have a lisitng I know I’ll get paid on one side which is enough for me. I’d rather spend my time trying to help buyers I know, like and respect. I’ve yet to meet one of those who tried to go direct. They all seem to have hidden agendasa that i dont have time for. They seem to like to think they are smarter than agents and figure than can outsmart us by going direct. Of course, thats not true and I know they are pulling the same pile of *(&(*& with a dozen other agents that they are calling also. I say good luck to them. Your quote that “I would expect that person to be more knowledgeable than an average buyer” is exactly the attitude I see from them. The smartest buyers have the best representation not NO representation.
[/quote]

Let me offer a counterpoint: my wife and I had a bunch of buyer’s agents blow smoke up our posteriors, including a member of my wife’s family who is a 20 year RE veteran. We couldn’t trust any of them, so I represented us through our first six months of serious shopping. There were some agents who didn’t want to have anything to do with me. Their loss. Others were cool with it and worked with me.

Long story short, we had a short sale that fell apart in the approval process (stupid BofA: the house is still vacant and on their books 18 months later). The seller’s agent on that deal asked us if we were interested in having him represent us on a 50% commission split; he knew we had the research squared away and that we wouldn’t waste his time. He’d proven himself to be a true professional throughout the deal, so we were happy to engage him. I’ve told the story elsewhere, but the short of it is that he showed us exactly one house and wrote exactly one offer (OK, and one counter) for us. The sale closed three months later (short sale). Easy money.

I understand you have to play the odds, but realize that some buyers might not have an agent precisely because they are serious and feel that too many in the RE biz do not act in their best interests.

Or maybe we’re just unique, like delicate snowflakes. 🙂

[drboom]

[quote=sdrealtor]Pretty much every buyer that has tried to go direct to me as a listing agent has been an utter waste of my time. When I have a lisitng I know I’ll get paid on one side which is enough for me. I’d rather spend my time trying to help buyers I know, like and respect. I’ve yet to meet one of those who tried to go direct. They all seem to have hidden agendasa that i dont have time for. They seem to like to think they are smarter than agents and figure than can outsmart us by going direct. Of course, thats not true and I know they are pulling the same pile of *(&(*& with a dozen other agents that they are calling also. I say good luck to them. Your quote that “I would expect that person to be more knowledgeable than an average buyer” is exactly the attitude I see from them. The smartest buyers have the best representation not NO representation.
[/quote]

Let me offer a counterpoint: my wife and I had a bunch of buyer’s agents blow smoke up our posteriors, including a member of my wife’s family who is a 20 year RE veteran. We couldn’t trust any of them, so I represented us through our first six months of serious shopping. There were some agents who didn’t want to have anything to do with me. Their loss. Others were cool with it and worked with me.

Long story short, we had a short sale that fell apart in the approval process (stupid BofA: the house is still vacant and on their books 18 months later). The seller’s agent on that deal asked us if we were interested in having him represent us on a 50% commission split; he knew we had the research squared away and that we wouldn’t waste his time. He’d proven himself to be a true professional throughout the deal, so we were happy to engage him. I’ve told the story elsewhere, but the short of it is that he showed us exactly one house and wrote exactly one offer (OK, and one counter) for us. The sale closed three months later (short sale). Easy money.

I understand you have to play the odds, but realize that some buyers might not have an agent precisely because they are serious and feel that too many in the RE biz do not act in their best interests.

Or maybe we’re just unique, like delicate snowflakes. 🙂

[drboom]

[quote=bearishgurl][quote=drboom]Those few of us who really are natives know far more about the area than any agent.[/quote]

drboom, I don’t know where you’re from, but here, in Chula Vista, 91910, most of the residents have lived here all of their lives.[/quote]

Fletcher Hills, 92020. I grew up in the house my grandparents bought in 1946 or 1947. It’s about a mile from the house my wife and I bought last year. We’re both true second generation natives, which is odd enough to draw comment, so this subject has come up before.

Your opinion isn’t supported by either my or my wife’s experience (she’s a native too, and she’s a teacher so she sees all the transplants when they arrive with their kids) or by looking at a chart of the county’s population over time: it has tripled since 1960 and doubled since 1980. All of that increase is “immigration”.

My mother-in-law stopped by briefly while I was writing this. She grew up a mile or two east of here, and she emphatically agrees with me.

I’ll see your transplant opinion and raise you three native opinions and some hand-waving at census numbers. 🙂

I agree that an agent with twenty years in the same area–a rare bird indeed–would know a thing or two. As it happens, our agent had about that much time in the area were interested in. But I have my own and my extended family’s knowledge to rely upon, and they’ve been around here for over seventy years. Our agent, who did a terrific job on the tasks we needed him for, was completely useless to us for research … because he is a transplant who settled here when he retired from the navy and went into RE in the late 80s. 🙂

I’ll stand by what I said even if you know of some exceptions. The reason I brought it up at all is because you were so emphatic that “civvies” absolutely require professional research services. It ain’t so.

[drboom]

[quote=bearishgurl][quote=drboom]Those few of us who really are natives know far more about the area than any agent.[/quote]

drboom, I don’t know where you’re from, but here, in Chula Vista, 91910, most of the residents have lived here all of their lives.[/quote]

Fletcher Hills, 92020. I grew up in the house my grandparents bought in 1946 or 1947. It’s about a mile from the house my wife and I bought last year. We’re both true second generation natives, which is odd enough to draw comment, so this subject has come up before.

Your opinion isn’t supported by either my or my wife’s experience (she’s a native too, and she’s a teacher so she sees all the transplants when they arrive with their kids) or by looking at a chart of the county’s population over time: it has tripled since 1960 and doubled since 1980. All of that increase is “immigration”.

My mother-in-law stopped by briefly while I was writing this. She grew up a mile or two east of here, and she emphatically agrees with me.

I’ll see your transplant opinion and raise you three native opinions and some hand-waving at census numbers. 🙂

I agree that an agent with twenty years in the same area–a rare bird indeed–would know a thing or two. As it happens, our agent had about that much time in the area were interested in. But I have my own and my extended family’s knowledge to rely upon, and they’ve been around here for over seventy years. Our agent, who did a terrific job on the tasks we needed him for, was completely useless to us for research … because he is a transplant who settled here when he retired from the navy and went into RE in the late 80s. 🙂

I’ll stand by what I said even if you know of some exceptions. The reason I brought it up at all is because you were so emphatic that “civvies” absolutely require professional research services. It ain’t so.

[drboom]

[quote=bearishgurl][quote=drboom]Those few of us who really are natives know far more about the area than any agent.[/quote]

drboom, I don’t know where you’re from, but here, in Chula Vista, 91910, most of the residents have lived here all of their lives.[/quote]

Fletcher Hills, 92020. I grew up in the house my grandparents bought in 1946 or 1947. It’s about a mile from the house my wife and I bought last year. We’re both true second generation natives, which is odd enough to draw comment, so this subject has come up before.

Your opinion isn’t supported by either my or my wife’s experience (she’s a native too, and she’s a teacher so she sees all the transplants when they arrive with their kids) or by looking at a chart of the county’s population over time: it has tripled since 1960 and doubled since 1980. All of that increase is “immigration”.

My mother-in-law stopped by briefly while I was writing this. She grew up a mile or two east of here, and she emphatically agrees with me.

I’ll see your transplant opinion and raise you three native opinions and some hand-waving at census numbers. 🙂

I agree that an agent with twenty years in the same area–a rare bird indeed–would know a thing or two. As it happens, our agent had about that much time in the area were interested in. But I have my own and my extended family’s knowledge to rely upon, and they’ve been around here for over seventy years. Our agent, who did a terrific job on the tasks we needed him for, was completely useless to us for research … because he is a transplant who settled here when he retired from the navy and went into RE in the late 80s. 🙂

I’ll stand by what I said even if you know of some exceptions. The reason I brought it up at all is because you were so emphatic that “civvies” absolutely require professional research services. It ain’t so.

[Author]

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