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CoronitaParticipant[quote=bearishgurl]flu, if the checkstub you posted was YOUR old checkstub, it must have been from a job in the bay area. SD companies don’t pay like that … especially years ago.
Yeah, I agree about the low net pay. Even gov’mt lawyers were making that net pay (and lower) back when I worked with them ~15 years ago, mostly due to heavy deductions for dependent medical plans (spouses were very expensive) and their 457 plans. Especially the ones who were planning on “retiring” in <10 years.
Yes, I also brown-bagged my lunch every day for three decades as did most of my co-workers (including attorneys). Lunch (and dtn pkg) eat up a LOT of money every week while trying to support a family. We only got $60 month for a parking stipend on our paychecks when dtn parking cost $110 to $150 month around the year 2000. OR, you could apply the stipend to the cost of a monthly bus/trolley pass but I never did because I used ~3 lunches per week to conduct all my family's errands so I could ensure picking up my kid(s) from daycare/after-school care by 6:00 pm. (I routinely kept an ice chest in the trunk.) I'm sure the stipend is higher today for current workers but so is downtown parking and a monthly bus/trolley pass. So it's all relative.[/quote]
Missed this...
Nope. I can guarantee you the paystub was not from the bay area. It was right here in San Diego. This would be considered on the lower side if was in the bay area.CoronitaParticipant[quote=no_such_reality]How is someone putting money in a roth with a base salary of $169K and other $33K in bonus?
As for the hypo paycheck, sorry, but $2000 going into the 401K, Roth 401K and ESPP every two weeks which is a $52K a year savings rate. $26K a year of which is going into stock purchase.
Yea, definitely do it, but don’t claim the take home is minuscule because those stock purchases can be rolled immediately.[/quote]
The stock can not be rolled immediately. Espp usually has a 6month waiting window, and if you do withdraw early, you will be locked out of the plan for the duration of the offering period. And when you do sell, before 2 years you will be taxed at ordinary income which is roughly 30-35% I believe, fed and state.
CoronitaParticipant[quote=no_such_reality]How is someone putting money in a roth with a base salary of $169K and other $33K in bonus?
As for the hypo paycheck, sorry, but $2000 going into the 401K, Roth 401K and ESPP every two weeks which is a $52K a year savings rate. $26K a year of which is going into stock purchase.
Yea, definitely do it, but don’t claim the take home is minuscule because those stock purchases can be rolled immediately.[/quote]
Roth 401k is not the same thing as a Roth IRA. The former is an employee sponsored plan. You can contribute up to $18000/year this year or any portion of it and split it with a traditional 401k. The caveat is the deductions are completely after tax, which is a bit of a sting. Also, there is no guarantee that earnings from it in the future won’t really be taxed. Which is why I split my contributions between a traditional 401k and Roth 401k. The traditional 401k contribution is to defer my taxable income and lower my bracket in the present day. Employer match is always to a traditional IRA, which currently my employer has at 4% I think.
CoronitaParticipant[quote=exsdgal][quote=flu]
Lol How the are you even doing that? [/quote]flu, you caught me! The correct response should have been 6-8K a month. Towards the end of the year the take home is about 4K/pay, and next month it will be roughly 3K. For the first time this year the 401k was not fully maxed out, to increase take home for other activities. What is ESPP? 🙂 No such lux deuries here.
Like I mentioned earlier it is good on paper, but for day to day expenses it is not much. I will be happy to have a 1K monthly expenses, and most months if I don’t watch out the cc bills land almost double. In my situation the deductions are roughly 50% of the salary. One could argue this 50% deduction includes the 401k contributions, which is theoretically mine. However I don’t get to use it when I need it, and also will pay tax on the distributions. (Yeah I can hear some say why not Roth401k – again not everyone gets these options)
The first job after graduation in the 90’s was at 37K in SD, writing about it makes me pause how much things have changed. The pay today may not necessarily be far fetched when adjusted for inflation. (I am sure there is an app for that!) Besides the inflation adjusted pay, I also attribute some of the career success to timing. Being some place at the right time, and jumping at opportunities with eyes closed. I guess youth offered some such luxuries. I don’t believe I was ever at the highest pay scale in any company, but over time definitely moved to the middle of the pack.
Things are a bit different now being a single W2 family. But even with a dual W2 in the past I did not feel rich enough to afford some of the things in San Diego especially housing. I remember when the Bel Etage/Savannah developments were released, I could not compute how it was possible for anyone to maintain the monthly expenses. Thinking back those homes were a steal at 500-800. Eventually moved to a <1500 sqft house inland and happy with the decisions made so far.
IMO moving forward the job market will be different with lot of non-W2 earners, folks starting businesses, young graduates creating their own businesses and not following the traditional 9-5 jobs. I think the current generation values their mobility and sense of presence higher than conforming to tradition. Over the years they will create their own ecosystem to thrive, and define their destiny. Combined with burgeoning global economy I except many from this next generation to blur the borders and start/build global small scale eco-friendly companies. It may not be far fetched when other countries begin to 'complain' about the Americans taking up prized RE in their home country :-)[/quote]
Lol. My first job in San Diego was $37.5 at Qualcomm back in 96. I was like wow, that's s lot of money. Then I went to the bay area, because a startup offered me $60k. I gave up 4000 shares of stock options doing that. Big mistake....huge! Just another reason why you don't chase only after the salary.
CoronitaParticipant[quote=svelte][quote=flu]
So anyway, I hardly consider this living a life of luxury and a license to spend spend spend. This isn’t wealthy. This is middle class. This is what a W2 income looks like…
[/quote]And if you’re married with a working spouse, it is only half the home’s income.
So now you need to double those numbers.
I know many, many professional couples living very comfortably.[/quote]
True. double incomes, have it much better purely from a financial aspect. But then we’re talking about household incomes, not individuals. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not complaining. I’m just saying, this isn’t “rolling in the dough”….
CoronitaParticipant[quote=ltsdd]flu,
wouldn’t you agree, though, that the bigger salary help facilitate your getting out of the rat race at a much younger age than a typical 9-5 salaryman?[/quote]It depends. It depends on how big a difference and how many hours extra you need to put in to get there. $21k gross pay difference is really like $13-15k after taxes, depending on what bracket you are in. The question is, how many hours/time are you going to have to dedicate to accomplish that. Will you have to be on the road all the time, away from family, stay late from work?
$13-15k difference over 10 years is $130-$150k extra person X would have over person Y. I hardly consider that a huge “advantage”. In fact, if I was making $21k less than my peer, I would be trying my darnest to squeeze every penny out of my $21k less salary to make it work for me, while the guy that makes $21k is probably spending most of his extra salary on useless crap. In the end, I wouldn’t be surprised if I come out ahead because I had more financial discipline than the guy that made $21k more. I think reality is that in many cases, people who make more end up feeling they are richer and end up spending more than they actually bring in. Oh sure, I make more salary now, I don’t need to worry about saving as much….I can afford switching cars every year or two… I can afford going on that nice vacation every year…. Either that, or I would have taken life’s pleasures in stages based on what is obtainable at this time. You don’t see me living in a $1.3+million home “starter home”, do you?
CoronitaParticipant[quote=deadzone]FLU, your math is way off if you think W2 take home pay is only $5500/month on 175K salary. I think you are off by a factor of two. Take home pay every 2-week pay period would be about that.
And anyone with that take home pay would be able to lead a VERY nice lifestyle.[/quote]
Ok, enough, ok….
Here’s is a hypothetical paystub from a few years ago. It’s hypothetical because it’s not necessarily mine. It could be a cousin’s, spouse, relative, etc. In any case, it’s outdated and a few years old. The paystub is a march paystub. And it’s outdated, so wouldn’t even reflect current market conditions, whatever that may be (less or more).
[img_assist|nid=25643|title=shit|desc=|link=node|align=left| width=400]
The point of this is illustrate, that as I mentioned, taking all the deductions (some of which is in your benefit), the net pay per period is *not* a license to live a life of luxury, at least not for the first 6-8 months.
For the time being, ignore the shitty cash bonus and restricted stock.(Obviously, this didn’t come from Intuit, and that company had a bad year that year, in which everyone’s bonus and stock grants were in the toilet). Although the base a few years ago is $6k short of your magically $175k (take regular rate of 80 hours * 26 pay periods per year), again this is a few years back, and you can extropolate what it would be in present day with annual increases and additional years of experience, even if you want to go as low as a 2% per annual increase which would be insulting at best.
Anyway,
*$1900/pay period goes to fed/state/medicare taxes and sdi.
* ALSO, keep in mind this is what happens when you claim “5” as your fed/state exemptions, which you can only do if you dependents and itemized deductions like am mortgage. Otherwise, you’re most likely claiming 1 or 2, which would most likely increase your tax bill to around $2100
*$60 goes to medical insurance, which is low (company has a decent health plan for PPO family coverage.) This is usually a lot more elsewhere.The rest of the deductions again are for your benefits, but most of which you can’t do anything with for a long long time.
$180 for flex spending/depedent care (pre tax)
$715 is pre-tax 401k..Can’t touch it to 65….
$455 is roth 401k that is AFTER tax. Can’t touch it to 65….
$975 is towards ESPP which you can’t touch for 6 months, and even if you sell before 2 years, that’s taxed at ordinary income, not capital gains tax rate.That leaves about $2200/period, or $4400/month for the first 6 months (yes, june july has 3 pay periods).
Now let’s just say someone does make $175k. And let’s say that $6k difference from this pay stub is completely tax free. That would put an additional $500/month on the person’s pocket (and clearly not all of that would be tax free). So you’re looking at $5000/month, and I’m adding an additional $500/month for padding…
So it would come out to be about $5500/month for the first half of the year, until you maxed out on your 401k’s, you hit the SDI tax limit, and medicare tax limit (which BTW went up starting in 2014), and you pick up the two extra pay periods in june and july.
Now with that, subtract $3000/month for mortgage+proptax+insurance or for some of you folks that insist on renting in Carmel V $4000/month. If you do the former, at least you get a tax writeoff, the latter you’re pretty much screwed in that none of it can be written off. No renter credit for your income level. That will leave you roughly $2000-2500/month, half of which you raise your family with, and the other half that goes toward the Porsche 911s car payment….HA HA, NOT, are you insane?…
So anyway, I hardly consider this living a life of luxury and a license to spend spend spend. This isn’t wealthy. This is middle class. This is what a W2 income looks like, and I’d be curious how it would stack up to say an attorney or doctor with equivalent number of years of experience. Not only would I suspect the gross income to be different, but the net income to be different, as many such doctors/attorneys/dentists aren’t on W2’s.
This is why I don’t understand why many of you are still so fixated on trying to figure out how to increase your W2 in the absence of any interest in the in-demand areas that would give you that marginal increase after taxes. Unless you are passionate about what you will be doing, you’ll be average at best and there will be someone that will be much more passionate than you about it that will most likely end up doing a much better job than you. And it changes. There are good years, there are bad years, and it averages out over time. Stick with what you are passionate about, and if it happens to not be in demand, you either find something you are passionate about that is in demand, or you stick with what you have, and if money is still a concern you spend your time saving your existing W2 AND putting it to use in more tax efficient ways to earn additional income, some of which you’ll fail trying, and some of which you will do ok. This is what Informercial “Rich Dad Poor Dad” has been trying to tell people: W2 income is the worst way to accumulate wealth relative to all the other ways that are much more tax efficient (although I think that guy is a fraud that just tries to sell his infomercials without telling people “how”, the basic premise of his message is pretty spot on).
This is also why I don’t understand why so many of you in the past have said that you would like to see an increase in capital gains taxes and dividend income, and that it should be taxed the same as sweat income. You basically want the government reduce/take away incentives that you can take advantage to help you secure your financial future without requiring you to put much labor in when you are old, sick, tired, whatever. Look at your W2 again. You don’t see a “pension” that is guaranteed for life like some get in the past do you? You don’t see a “guarantee” return as you do for some of the public pension plans do you? So basically you expect to continue to work indefinitely?
Anyway, I wish I learned that a decade ago. I wouldn’t nearly have spent as much time about my W2 as I would have on empire building passive income.
And yes, I brown bag my lunch every day. Because I have to watch how I spend.
CoronitaParticipant.
CoronitaParticipant[quote=plm]with 175K salary, maxed out 401K and no ESPP or flex spending, that first 8K/mo number is the right number. I want to clarify though that its not me making the 175K salary.[/quote]
Ok. Without ESPP and flex spending, and with a pre-tax traditional 401k (not Roth 401k that is after tax)then yes, that’s probably close to it. Again I want to clarify, hypothetically of course.
CoronitaParticipant[quote=deadzone]FLU, your math is way off if you think W2 take home pay is only $5500/month on 175K salary. I think you are off by a factor of two. Take home pay every 2-week pay period would be about that.
And anyone with that take home pay would be able to lead a VERY nice lifestyle.[/quote]
No it’s not, at least not for the first 6-8 months. Want proof? Again, the key point is after all your deductions (including some that is really to your benefit, though you won’t have access to it for some time…)
CoronitaParticipant[quote=exsdgal]Most times two people with similar background and position in the same company will not have the exact salary. The reason is the perceived value of the individual. Surest way to improve the base pay is to have a personal ‘campaigner’ within the organization, and individually making oneself indispensable within the company. ie. creating value for the company’s bottom line, learning the pain points of the company and providing solutions ‘even when it is not part of the job description’. At least these are the take aways IMO for anyone making huge salary jumps within a company.
Kev, I don’t know what your objectives are. If you do find a higher paying job what’s next when the peer salary bracket increases? For there is always a bigger fish in the pond. Yes node.js, express etal is not necessarily difficult to learn, but to consistently command higher pay one needs a broad experience in multiple disciplines – server app, client app, responsive design, database, aws/cloud management, high availability server maintenance, trouble shooting, data analysis to list the basics.
The only way to get out of the salary doldrums is to figure out the objectives, pick a path and jump right at it 🙂 However imo to foolproof future salary bracket, is to pick an up and coming area (not yet trendy) to build the experience. For example the ruby/node.js, ios/android guys (and gals) making high figures today typically started when the sdk’s and platforms were in version 0.x.
In my 20 odd years of work experience the W2 high salaried folks fall into two camps – 1) riding the trend wave 2) working on mind-numbing monotonous projects. Nothing wrong with either camps, and to be successful in either camp comes down to one’s personality.
Someone asked about 175 base salary. Yes it is possible in non managerial engineer positions in some SR companies. The number sounds great on paper, but in reality the monthly take home is roughly 8-ishK after deductions. Comfortable but not extraordinary for a single income family.
Kev, not sure if this helps at all. If the intention is to just make more money why not consider supplementing income? e.g. few days ago I received a udemy top courses list where a guy talks about making 100K a year drop shipping eBay goods, and emulating Tim Ferriss lifestyle.[/quote]
Thank you.. Exactly…. Glad I’m not the only one saying this…
And mixxalot, regarding sales engineering. Yes, if you’re in sales, you make a heck of lot more. But let’s be frank, not everyone is cut out for sales. You sound like you are.. Most people aren’t. So again, it’s based on what you are good at and what you enjoy doing. The bulk of your earnings is in commissions, so either you are good at it (and make a lot in commission), your you suck at it (and you get fired)…
[quote]
Someone asked about 175 base salary. Yes it is possible in non managerial engineer positions in some SR companies. The number sounds great on paper, but in reality the monthly take home is roughly 8-ishK after deductions. Comfortable but not extraordinary for a single income family.
[/quote]Lol How the are you even doing that? Hypothetically, if one is maxxing out retirement contributions (half being pre tax in a traditional 401k because of the match, half being AFTER tax in a Roth 401l)… and maxing out on a ESPP (which is 15% AFTER tax)…. and claiming 5 as an exemption on fed and state, and contributing to a flex spending medical which is about $200/month (granted, it’s pre tax), $300/month for flex spending/dependent care. ….
Hypothetically, one would be lucky to see $5500/month. Granted, most of this is hypothetically would be retirement deferral and investment (via ESPP) which isn’t spending, the retirement amount is not touchable for a long time , the ESPP would not be sellable for 6 months until vested, and the flex spending would reduce one’s normal medical/dependent care expenses by allowing one to use that money pretax. But of that that $5500/month net, hypothetically, $3000/month goes to mortgage+insurance+property tax on the primary, $1000/month goes to living expenses, the remaining $1500/month goes to a vanguard index fund, part of which goes to a kid’s education fund.
For the first 8 months, the net of such a hypothetical W2 pretty much just pays the bills. Starting the 8th month, the net ends up being more because the 401k/Roth 401k’s are maxed out, the social security tax is maxed out, SDI is maxed out.
Not that this is really a problem to have, nor would one be complaining. It’s just those that think this gives one a license to live lavishly is really mistaken.
The payouts, hypothetically have always been the cash bonus and RSU stock grants.
That’s why I’m so surprised so many of you are still so fixated on how much one can theoretically make on a W2 paycheck. Looks great looking at the gross amount. Looking at the net amount, it looks gross after taxes (pun intended).
CoronitaParticipant[quote=deadzone]Once again, I’m asking if anybody here currently makes 175K base salary for a corporate engineering position in a purely technical role (i.e. no management or supervisory responsibility).
I’m not suggesting this is impossible, but I do believe that is an uncommonly high salary for San Diego at least. I would be interested in a tangible example of this if there is anybody on this board. I do not need to see your pay stub, I will believe you.[/quote]
You do realize that part of your comp negotiation is the total package, including stock and projected bonus. Its how it works both here and in the bay area. And I simply used the lower end of that comp package as something obtainable 8years ago. You can speculate what sort of deviation from that has happened 8years from now with increased experience.
Of course if you happen to pick a startup or company that just had a bad year, that depends. Which brings me back to the original thing I said. You should never consider your total comp stable, and expect your comp will always be at peak as it can go up and down based on many factors.And salarywise, $175k base salary is roughly where a principal or senior principal is with about 2-3 years into that position , also doesn’t necessarily require managing people and also requires being hands on. Again, many examples at Qualcomm.
CoronitaParticipant[quote=deadzone]By the way, “Staff Engineers” generally manage people, projects, or both.[/quote]
Not true. At least not at Intuit and Qualcomm. At Qualcomm the role is split that’s why you have staff engineer/manager title. At Intuit, staff engineers are not managers, that’s what project managers are for. They might be project lead, but it still requires hands on. I agree that if one only stay at software engineer level, it might limit comps. But then it depends on the company. Some companies dont distinguish between senior and staff and just calls everyone senior. In that case, comps are usually based on historical comp you have. And companies might ask you to take a pay cut, but that depends on how badly one needs the job or how badly wants to work at the employer. There’s really nothing special about being project lead. It just means one knows what he/she is doing, which frankly, one should be able to do it provided one has been working around 10years, earlier if he/she is good. And if one isnt operating in a capacity to lead technical projects at some point in their career, that’s part of the problem of why one’s opportunities might be limited.
The title doesn’t matter, its what you can contribute with minimal instructions. You might lead a project at point X, you might play a supporting role for a project lead at point Y. Your pay does not yoyo up and down whether you are currently leading a project or not. I am not project lead all the time, but it doesn’t mean I don’t take the project in a certain direction. And I am paid the same whether I have the title at an instance of time or not. I might leave if I am not project lead and I don’t get along with the lead or if the project is headed down a direction I don’t agree with and I can’t influence it a certain way. It depends on how bad I think that path is. But rarely do I just sit there as a code monkey and just code in a way people tell me to code. In fact, people dobt tell me how to code, they tell me here’s the problem, go solve it, we’ll review your solution to make sure its not totally fcvked up.
CoronitaParticipant[quote=deadzone]Still waiting for an example of Engineer making 175K in San Diego.
Nobody claimed 175K (or 200K) salary in California is “rich”. But if you don’t think someone with that salary is very well off you are delusional.[/quote]
Well..if you must know. I could tell you specially what my comp package was at Intuit …8 years ago….but then if I were to do that, your next request would be to post picture of the pay stub…. And I didn’t say salary, I said total comp package. Intuit consistently pays out a 20% cash bonus, at leat they did when I was there for reasonably good performers.
No, I didn’t manage anyone. Though I was project lead many many times and still hands on.That’s comparable to a staff engineer with many years or senior staff engineer at Qualcomm, well at least before the layoffs. And among the wireless companies, its about the same give or take slight bumps when you cross over to a competitor because they want you (again before all the Qualcomm meltdowns)
So nothing special really. Plenty of people make what you say can’t be made here. Just go figure out how many staff and senior staff engineers there are at Qualcomm.Why do I get the feeling a bunch of people are going to apply to Intuit now???
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