[cabal]

[quote=lindismith]We are in manufacturing, right here in San Diego.

My business has increased A LOT in the last 7 years, mostly because we use a lot of technology, despite the fact that commercial sewing is a somewhat old-fashioned type of process. We don’t have any high tech specialty cutting machines in the factory per se, we just utilize high tech marketing (blogs, SEO, email etc.)and software for running the business as much as possible. So the high tech element is on the front end.

Sometimes when my competitors go out of business, they call me to see if I want to buy equipment. It’s interesting to see, but they often have high tech stuff in their factory, but not in their office, which is the opposite of us.

You can see what we do at http://www.garymanufacturing.com, but we manufacture very basic items, despite stiff competition from China.

The other high tech element we use is reading the blogs, like Piggington and CR. I would say those two single-handedly helped me ramp up prior to the recession so that I was prepared for it.

Ultimately I was surprised by how fast and how far the economy dropped, but still, I felt like I had access to really great data thanks to Rich and all the Piggs.

Hope all is well with you guys – have had a busy summer, but still lurk once in a while. Like, today.

Belinda[/quote]

Nice to see examples of local manufacturing businesses finding a way to compete globally, rather than complain about unfair trade practices. My employer is also a manufacturing intensive company, competing domestically as well as globally with powerhouse European and Asian businesses. Fourth quarter 2008 and 2009 has been extremely challenging, but thanks to a proactive management team, we executed our recession scenario business plan flawlessly allowing us to still met business targets with minimal layoffs. Although a hiring freeze is still in place, I’m happy to report no more layoffs are planned for the forseeable future.

I don’t see how, but more power to you if find blogs like Piggington helpful in managing your business. As a former small business owner with upwards of 20 employees at the peak, I found the biggest challenge hands down was managing, motivating and retaining quality employees. It was a wild ride for 6 years. I don’t miss it at this stage in life as I prefer the relative safety and abundant resources of the corporate world. If you happen to check in, I would be interested in hearing about the unique challenges of your business. Good luck.

[cabal]

[quote=qwerty007][quote=Cabal] Every month ask 100 people of diverse backgrounds if they think it’s a good time to buy a house. If the answer is 50% positive, we may have turned the corner.[/quote]

I agree with a lot of what you say, but if you asked the same 100 people during the bubble peak what they thought, many would have been positive, otherwise why did they buy, but look how wrong they were.

However, if posters here are representative of the market, then it’s pretty clear that not everyone believes were close to a bottom. The very fact that we are still discussing price declines means that there is still so much uncertainty, which is not a harbinger of confidence. Below is apparently what Robert Shiller thinks.

HOME prices in the United States have been falling for nearly three years, and the decline may well continue for some time …something is definitely different about real estate. Long declines do happen with some regularity. And despite the uptick last week in pending home sales and recent improvement in consumer confidence, we still appear to be in a continuing price decline. ROBERT J. SHILLER June 6, 2009 New York Times

So without going out onto the streets and asking a 100 people, I’d say we have not turned the corner yet.[/quote]

Qwerty – That was just a simple rule of thumb to foreshadow the bottom. I didn’t say it also applied towards predicting the peak. I agree with you it would miss predicting the peak, however at some point on the downside it would surely suggest it, maybe 10%? off peak. Perhaps a better indication is the rate of change towards 50-50 on both the upside and downside. Nevertheless, my general point is not to get too hung up on negative macroeconomic news because they don’t necessarily drive or mean anything. Let’s look at one example. Yes, aggregate SD unemployment is near 10%, but if you scratch below the surface you see only low income areas like El Cajon, Chula Vista, IB, etc are well above 10%, whereas higher income areas like CV, Solana Beach, Poway, etc are only 5%-7%. The majority of folks in El Cajon are not going to be buying a home in 4s ranch, never have, never will.

What if interest rates rise to 7%-8% and homes have started to post a modest increase like they are now? My response is so what. People will find a way. They will borrow a bigger down from relatives, cash out the 401K, take the 40 yr amortization schedule, and opt for the 5/1, 7/1, or IO option to get the lower rate just to get that house. I’m also not concerned about the next wave of alt-a recasts, nor Chinas reluctance to buy our debt. China is in a catch 22 as they hold trillions in foreign debt, with the majority in dollar denomination. Any hint of divesting or unwillingness to buy more debt would instantly kill their investment. I do agree the one wild card is the duration of this unprecedented government intervention bubble, in all its forms. I’ll reevaluate after the outcome of the midterm elections. If the Dems hold power, my sense is it’ll keep going unless the economy show signs of becomes self sustaining.

On your second point, I would disagree that the Pigg pen is a fair representation of the general population. I would say the group is in general more educated, inquisitive, like to challenge the status quo, and willing to do tedious research to better understand a given situation. The danger of course, is being conditioned for so long by all the negative news and becoming permanently brainwashed to reside at least one sigma point to the bear side of the bell curve. The challenge is to stay neutral rather than become polar opposites of permabulls during the bubble. There are a lot of analytical engineer types here who like to crunch numbers and post stats. I say crunch all the numbers you want, that’s a good thing, but balance that against understanding the psychology of humans and what motivates them to take action. Also, most people simply just want a home to raise a family and move on with their lives. They don’t live and breathe RE 24/7 and visit Piggington 3 times a day. Finally, a few Piggs have already purchased while many are apparently actively looking. What does that mean ?

[cabal]

[quote=qwerty007][quote=Cabal] Every month ask 100 people of diverse backgrounds if they think it’s a good time to buy a house. If the answer is 50% positive, we may have turned the corner.[/quote]

I agree with a lot of what you say, but if you asked the same 100 people during the bubble peak what they thought, many would have been positive, otherwise why did they buy, but look how wrong they were.

However, if posters here are representative of the market, then it’s pretty clear that not everyone believes were close to a bottom. The very fact that we are still discussing price declines means that there is still so much uncertainty, which is not a harbinger of confidence. Below is apparently what Robert Shiller thinks.

HOME prices in the United States have been falling for nearly three years, and the decline may well continue for some time …something is definitely different about real estate. Long declines do happen with some regularity. And despite the uptick last week in pending home sales and recent improvement in consumer confidence, we still appear to be in a continuing price decline. ROBERT J. SHILLER June 6, 2009 New York Times

So without going out onto the streets and asking a 100 people, I’d say we have not turned the corner yet.[/quote]

Qwerty – That was just a simple rule of thumb to foreshadow the bottom. I didn’t say it also applied towards predicting the peak. I agree with you it would miss predicting the peak, however at some point on the downside it would surely suggest it, maybe 10%? off peak. Perhaps a better indication is the rate of change towards 50-50 on both the upside and downside. Nevertheless, my general point is not to get too hung up on negative macroeconomic news because they don’t necessarily drive or mean anything. Let’s look at one example. Yes, aggregate SD unemployment is near 10%, but if you scratch below the surface you see only low income areas like El Cajon, Chula Vista, IB, etc are well above 10%, whereas higher income areas like CV, Solana Beach, Poway, etc are only 5%-7%. The majority of folks in El Cajon are not going to be buying a home in 4s ranch, never have, never will.

What if interest rates rise to 7%-8% and homes have started to post a modest increase like they are now? My response is so what. People will find a way. They will borrow a bigger down from relatives, cash out the 401K, take the 40 yr amortization schedule, and opt for the 5/1, 7/1, or IO option to get the lower rate just to get that house. I’m also not concerned about the next wave of alt-a recasts, nor Chinas reluctance to buy our debt. China is in a catch 22 as they hold trillions in foreign debt, with the majority in dollar denomination. Any hint of divesting or unwillingness to buy more debt would instantly kill their investment. I do agree the one wild card is the duration of this unprecedented government intervention bubble, in all its forms. I’ll reevaluate after the outcome of the midterm elections. If the Dems hold power, my sense is it’ll keep going unless the economy show signs of becomes self sustaining.

On your second point, I would disagree that the Pigg pen is a fair representation of the general population. I would say the group is in general more educated, inquisitive, like to challenge the status quo, and willing to do tedious research to better understand a given situation. The danger of course, is being conditioned for so long by all the negative news and becoming permanently brainwashed to reside at least one sigma point to the bear side of the bell curve. The challenge is to stay neutral rather than become polar opposites of permabulls during the bubble. There are a lot of analytical engineer types here who like to crunch numbers and post stats. I say crunch all the numbers you want, that’s a good thing, but balance that against understanding the psychology of humans and what motivates them to take action. Also, most people simply just want a home to raise a family and move on with their lives. They don’t live and breathe RE 24/7 and visit Piggington 3 times a day. Finally, a few Piggs have already purchased while many are apparently actively looking. What does that mean ?

[cabal]

[quote=qwerty007][quote=Cabal] Every month ask 100 people of diverse backgrounds if they think it’s a good time to buy a house. If the answer is 50% positive, we may have turned the corner.[/quote]

I agree with a lot of what you say, but if you asked the same 100 people during the bubble peak what they thought, many would have been positive, otherwise why did they buy, but look how wrong they were.

However, if posters here are representative of the market, then it’s pretty clear that not everyone believes were close to a bottom. The very fact that we are still discussing price declines means that there is still so much uncertainty, which is not a harbinger of confidence. Below is apparently what Robert Shiller thinks.

HOME prices in the United States have been falling for nearly three years, and the decline may well continue for some time …something is definitely different about real estate. Long declines do happen with some regularity. And despite the uptick last week in pending home sales and recent improvement in consumer confidence, we still appear to be in a continuing price decline. ROBERT J. SHILLER June 6, 2009 New York Times

So without going out onto the streets and asking a 100 people, I’d say we have not turned the corner yet.[/quote]

Qwerty – That was just a simple rule of thumb to foreshadow the bottom. I didn’t say it also applied towards predicting the peak. I agree with you it would miss predicting the peak, however at some point on the downside it would surely suggest it, maybe 10%? off peak. Perhaps a better indication is the rate of change towards 50-50 on both the upside and downside. Nevertheless, my general point is not to get too hung up on negative macroeconomic news because they don’t necessarily drive or mean anything. Let’s look at one example. Yes, aggregate SD unemployment is near 10%, but if you scratch below the surface you see only low income areas like El Cajon, Chula Vista, IB, etc are well above 10%, whereas higher income areas like CV, Solana Beach, Poway, etc are only 5%-7%. The majority of folks in El Cajon are not going to be buying a home in 4s ranch, never have, never will.

What if interest rates rise to 7%-8% and homes have started to post a modest increase like they are now? My response is so what. People will find a way. They will borrow a bigger down from relatives, cash out the 401K, take the 40 yr amortization schedule, and opt for the 5/1, 7/1, or IO option to get the lower rate just to get that house. I’m also not concerned about the next wave of alt-a recasts, nor Chinas reluctance to buy our debt. China is in a catch 22 as they hold trillions in foreign debt, with the majority in dollar denomination. Any hint of divesting or unwillingness to buy more debt would instantly kill their investment. I do agree the one wild card is the duration of this unprecedented government intervention bubble, in all its forms. I’ll reevaluate after the outcome of the midterm elections. If the Dems hold power, my sense is it’ll keep going unless the economy show signs of becomes self sustaining.

On your second point, I would disagree that the Pigg pen is a fair representation of the general population. I would say the group is in general more educated, inquisitive, like to challenge the status quo, and willing to do tedious research to better understand a given situation. The danger of course, is being conditioned for so long by all the negative news and becoming permanently brainwashed to reside at least one sigma point to the bear side of the bell curve. The challenge is to stay neutral rather than become polar opposites of permabulls during the bubble. There are a lot of analytical engineer types here who like to crunch numbers and post stats. I say crunch all the numbers you want, that’s a good thing, but balance that against understanding the psychology of humans and what motivates them to take action. Also, most people simply just want a home to raise a family and move on with their lives. They don’t live and breathe RE 24/7 and visit Piggington 3 times a day. Finally, a few Piggs have already purchased while many are apparently actively looking. What does that mean ?

[cabal]

[quote=qwerty007][quote=Cabal] Every month ask 100 people of diverse backgrounds if they think it’s a good time to buy a house. If the answer is 50% positive, we may have turned the corner.[/quote]

I agree with a lot of what you say, but if you asked the same 100 people during the bubble peak what they thought, many would have been positive, otherwise why did they buy, but look how wrong they were.

However, if posters here are representative of the market, then it’s pretty clear that not everyone believes were close to a bottom. The very fact that we are still discussing price declines means that there is still so much uncertainty, which is not a harbinger of confidence. Below is apparently what Robert Shiller thinks.

HOME prices in the United States have been falling for nearly three years, and the decline may well continue for some time …something is definitely different about real estate. Long declines do happen with some regularity. And despite the uptick last week in pending home sales and recent improvement in consumer confidence, we still appear to be in a continuing price decline. ROBERT J. SHILLER June 6, 2009 New York Times

So without going out onto the streets and asking a 100 people, I’d say we have not turned the corner yet.[/quote]

Qwerty – That was just a simple rule of thumb to foreshadow the bottom. I didn’t say it also applied towards predicting the peak. I agree with you it would miss predicting the peak, however at some point on the downside it would surely suggest it, maybe 10%? off peak. Perhaps a better indication is the rate of change towards 50-50 on both the upside and downside. Nevertheless, my general point is not to get too hung up on negative macroeconomic news because they don’t necessarily drive or mean anything. Let’s look at one example. Yes, aggregate SD unemployment is near 10%, but if you scratch below the surface you see only low income areas like El Cajon, Chula Vista, IB, etc are well above 10%, whereas higher income areas like CV, Solana Beach, Poway, etc are only 5%-7%. The majority of folks in El Cajon are not going to be buying a home in 4s ranch, never have, never will.

What if interest rates rise to 7%-8% and homes have started to post a modest increase like they are now? My response is so what. People will find a way. They will borrow a bigger down from relatives, cash out the 401K, take the 40 yr amortization schedule, and opt for the 5/1, 7/1, or IO option to get the lower rate just to get that house. I’m also not concerned about the next wave of alt-a recasts, nor Chinas reluctance to buy our debt. China is in a catch 22 as they hold trillions in foreign debt, with the majority in dollar denomination. Any hint of divesting or unwillingness to buy more debt would instantly kill their investment. I do agree the one wild card is the duration of this unprecedented government intervention bubble, in all its forms. I’ll reevaluate after the outcome of the midterm elections. If the Dems hold power, my sense is it’ll keep going unless the economy show signs of becomes self sustaining.

On your second point, I would disagree that the Pigg pen is a fair representation of the general population. I would say the group is in general more educated, inquisitive, like to challenge the status quo, and willing to do tedious research to better understand a given situation. The danger of course, is being conditioned for so long by all the negative news and becoming permanently brainwashed to reside at least one sigma point to the bear side of the bell curve. The challenge is to stay neutral rather than become polar opposites of permabulls during the bubble. There are a lot of analytical engineer types here who like to crunch numbers and post stats. I say crunch all the numbers you want, that’s a good thing, but balance that against understanding the psychology of humans and what motivates them to take action. Also, most people simply just want a home to raise a family and move on with their lives. They don’t live and breathe RE 24/7 and visit Piggington 3 times a day. Finally, a few Piggs have already purchased while many are apparently actively looking. What does that mean ?

[cabal]

[quote=qwerty007][quote=Cabal] Every month ask 100 people of diverse backgrounds if they think it’s a good time to buy a house. If the answer is 50% positive, we may have turned the corner.[/quote]

I agree with a lot of what you say, but if you asked the same 100 people during the bubble peak what they thought, many would have been positive, otherwise why did they buy, but look how wrong they were.

However, if posters here are representative of the market, then it’s pretty clear that not everyone believes were close to a bottom. The very fact that we are still discussing price declines means that there is still so much uncertainty, which is not a harbinger of confidence. Below is apparently what Robert Shiller thinks.

HOME prices in the United States have been falling for nearly three years, and the decline may well continue for some time …something is definitely different about real estate. Long declines do happen with some regularity. And despite the uptick last week in pending home sales and recent improvement in consumer confidence, we still appear to be in a continuing price decline. ROBERT J. SHILLER June 6, 2009 New York Times

So without going out onto the streets and asking a 100 people, I’d say we have not turned the corner yet.[/quote]

Qwerty – That was just a simple rule of thumb to foreshadow the bottom. I didn’t say it also applied towards predicting the peak. I agree with you it would miss predicting the peak, however at some point on the downside it would surely suggest it, maybe 10%? off peak. Perhaps a better indication is the rate of change towards 50-50 on both the upside and downside. Nevertheless, my general point is not to get too hung up on negative macroeconomic news because they don’t necessarily drive or mean anything. Let’s look at one example. Yes, aggregate SD unemployment is near 10%, but if you scratch below the surface you see only low income areas like El Cajon, Chula Vista, IB, etc are well above 10%, whereas higher income areas like CV, Solana Beach, Poway, etc are only 5%-7%. The majority of folks in El Cajon are not going to be buying a home in 4s ranch, never have, never will.

What if interest rates rise to 7%-8% and homes have started to post a modest increase like they are now? My response is so what. People will find a way. They will borrow a bigger down from relatives, cash out the 401K, take the 40 yr amortization schedule, and opt for the 5/1, 7/1, or IO option to get the lower rate just to get that house. I’m also not concerned about the next wave of alt-a recasts, nor Chinas reluctance to buy our debt. China is in a catch 22 as they hold trillions in foreign debt, with the majority in dollar denomination. Any hint of divesting or unwillingness to buy more debt would instantly kill their investment. I do agree the one wild card is the duration of this unprecedented government intervention bubble, in all its forms. I’ll reevaluate after the outcome of the midterm elections. If the Dems hold power, my sense is it’ll keep going unless the economy show signs of becomes self sustaining.

On your second point, I would disagree that the Pigg pen is a fair representation of the general population. I would say the group is in general more educated, inquisitive, like to challenge the status quo, and willing to do tedious research to better understand a given situation. The danger of course, is being conditioned for so long by all the negative news and becoming permanently brainwashed to reside at least one sigma point to the bear side of the bell curve. The challenge is to stay neutral rather than become polar opposites of permabulls during the bubble. There are a lot of analytical engineer types here who like to crunch numbers and post stats. I say crunch all the numbers you want, that’s a good thing, but balance that against understanding the psychology of humans and what motivates them to take action. Also, most people simply just want a home to raise a family and move on with their lives. They don’t live and breathe RE 24/7 and visit Piggington 3 times a day. Finally, a few Piggs have already purchased while many are apparently actively looking. What does that mean ?

[cabal]

The first course of action is to sit down with your husband and agree to always stay calm, conduct further discussions in a civil manner, do not argue, do not raise your voice, do not become animated, and above all do not place blame. No doubt you’ve already engaged in heated discussions and ended feeling frustrated, scared, perhaps angry. Your family unit is the most important thing and issues like this are how cracks in the foundation of marriage start. The second order of business is to set a time limit (1 week at the most) and to select the decision maker. If you can’t agree on the decision maker, flip a coin. Once the decision is made, both must support it 100% and move forward aggressively. To help with the decision, you might consider reconstructing your post in the form of a Pugh Matrix. If you’re not familiar, you can google around and find out – fairly useful decision making tool based on a scoring system that takes out emotions, personal preferences while folding in your unique family priorities.

I wouldn’t waste time with a loan mod. You obviously will not qualify given your income level and lack of debt. The Phoenix/Tempe area has little intrinsic appeal and essentially tagged along for the bubble ride meaning no recovery and continued negative cash flow for the forseeable future (5+yrs) if you keep it. It won’t take long to catch up to the 40K potential loss. The short sale option is worth exploring if you can tolerate the bank dragging it out, but it sounds like you’re tired of the game and want to move on. If you pursue the short, don’t worry about the morality aspect of it (ie stiffing taxpayers). It’s perfectly legal and the topic of “Morality and the Law” has been debated every which way since the time of Plato with really no right or wrong answers.

My instinct is to sell the condo, take the loss, and move on. This will immediately reestablish and stabilize your financial baseline and allow you to decisively plan for the future, whether it’s having another child or buy another house. Lastly, try to shed any feelings of entitlement to the 80K you made or the 40K you might lose. No doubt you work hard for your money, but the bitterness will eat you alive and your family will notice it. You folks have a decent income and will survive this regardless of which course you take.

[cabal]

The first course of action is to sit down with your husband and agree to always stay calm, conduct further discussions in a civil manner, do not argue, do not raise your voice, do not become animated, and above all do not place blame. No doubt you’ve already engaged in heated discussions and ended feeling frustrated, scared, perhaps angry. Your family unit is the most important thing and issues like this are how cracks in the foundation of marriage start. The second order of business is to set a time limit (1 week at the most) and to select the decision maker. If you can’t agree on the decision maker, flip a coin. Once the decision is made, both must support it 100% and move forward aggressively. To help with the decision, you might consider reconstructing your post in the form of a Pugh Matrix. If you’re not familiar, you can google around and find out – fairly useful decision making tool based on a scoring system that takes out emotions, personal preferences while folding in your unique family priorities.

I wouldn’t waste time with a loan mod. You obviously will not qualify given your income level and lack of debt. The Phoenix/Tempe area has little intrinsic appeal and essentially tagged along for the bubble ride meaning no recovery and continued negative cash flow for the forseeable future (5+yrs) if you keep it. It won’t take long to catch up to the 40K potential loss. The short sale option is worth exploring if you can tolerate the bank dragging it out, but it sounds like you’re tired of the game and want to move on. If you pursue the short, don’t worry about the morality aspect of it (ie stiffing taxpayers). It’s perfectly legal and the topic of “Morality and the Law” has been debated every which way since the time of Plato with really no right or wrong answers.

My instinct is to sell the condo, take the loss, and move on. This will immediately reestablish and stabilize your financial baseline and allow you to decisively plan for the future, whether it’s having another child or buy another house. Lastly, try to shed any feelings of entitlement to the 80K you made or the 40K you might lose. No doubt you work hard for your money, but the bitterness will eat you alive and your family will notice it. You folks have a decent income and will survive this regardless of which course you take.

[cabal]

The first course of action is to sit down with your husband and agree to always stay calm, conduct further discussions in a civil manner, do not argue, do not raise your voice, do not become animated, and above all do not place blame. No doubt you’ve already engaged in heated discussions and ended feeling frustrated, scared, perhaps angry. Your family unit is the most important thing and issues like this are how cracks in the foundation of marriage start. The second order of business is to set a time limit (1 week at the most) and to select the decision maker. If you can’t agree on the decision maker, flip a coin. Once the decision is made, both must support it 100% and move forward aggressively. To help with the decision, you might consider reconstructing your post in the form of a Pugh Matrix. If you’re not familiar, you can google around and find out – fairly useful decision making tool based on a scoring system that takes out emotions, personal preferences while folding in your unique family priorities.

I wouldn’t waste time with a loan mod. You obviously will not qualify given your income level and lack of debt. The Phoenix/Tempe area has little intrinsic appeal and essentially tagged along for the bubble ride meaning no recovery and continued negative cash flow for the forseeable future (5+yrs) if you keep it. It won’t take long to catch up to the 40K potential loss. The short sale option is worth exploring if you can tolerate the bank dragging it out, but it sounds like you’re tired of the game and want to move on. If you pursue the short, don’t worry about the morality aspect of it (ie stiffing taxpayers). It’s perfectly legal and the topic of “Morality and the Law” has been debated every which way since the time of Plato with really no right or wrong answers.

My instinct is to sell the condo, take the loss, and move on. This will immediately reestablish and stabilize your financial baseline and allow you to decisively plan for the future, whether it’s having another child or buy another house. Lastly, try to shed any feelings of entitlement to the 80K you made or the 40K you might lose. No doubt you work hard for your money, but the bitterness will eat you alive and your family will notice it. You folks have a decent income and will survive this regardless of which course you take.

[cabal]

The first course of action is to sit down with your husband and agree to always stay calm, conduct further discussions in a civil manner, do not argue, do not raise your voice, do not become animated, and above all do not place blame. No doubt you’ve already engaged in heated discussions and ended feeling frustrated, scared, perhaps angry. Your family unit is the most important thing and issues like this are how cracks in the foundation of marriage start. The second order of business is to set a time limit (1 week at the most) and to select the decision maker. If you can’t agree on the decision maker, flip a coin. Once the decision is made, both must support it 100% and move forward aggressively. To help with the decision, you might consider reconstructing your post in the form of a Pugh Matrix. If you’re not familiar, you can google around and find out – fairly useful decision making tool based on a scoring system that takes out emotions, personal preferences while folding in your unique family priorities.

I wouldn’t waste time with a loan mod. You obviously will not qualify given your income level and lack of debt. The Phoenix/Tempe area has little intrinsic appeal and essentially tagged along for the bubble ride meaning no recovery and continued negative cash flow for the forseeable future (5+yrs) if you keep it. It won’t take long to catch up to the 40K potential loss. The short sale option is worth exploring if you can tolerate the bank dragging it out, but it sounds like you’re tired of the game and want to move on. If you pursue the short, don’t worry about the morality aspect of it (ie stiffing taxpayers). It’s perfectly legal and the topic of “Morality and the Law” has been debated every which way since the time of Plato with really no right or wrong answers.

My instinct is to sell the condo, take the loss, and move on. This will immediately reestablish and stabilize your financial baseline and allow you to decisively plan for the future, whether it’s having another child or buy another house. Lastly, try to shed any feelings of entitlement to the 80K you made or the 40K you might lose. No doubt you work hard for your money, but the bitterness will eat you alive and your family will notice it. You folks have a decent income and will survive this regardless of which course you take.

[cabal]

The first course of action is to sit down with your husband and agree to always stay calm, conduct further discussions in a civil manner, do not argue, do not raise your voice, do not become animated, and above all do not place blame. No doubt you’ve already engaged in heated discussions and ended feeling frustrated, scared, perhaps angry. Your family unit is the most important thing and issues like this are how cracks in the foundation of marriage start. The second order of business is to set a time limit (1 week at the most) and to select the decision maker. If you can’t agree on the decision maker, flip a coin. Once the decision is made, both must support it 100% and move forward aggressively. To help with the decision, you might consider reconstructing your post in the form of a Pugh Matrix. If you’re not familiar, you can google around and find out – fairly useful decision making tool based on a scoring system that takes out emotions, personal preferences while folding in your unique family priorities.

I wouldn’t waste time with a loan mod. You obviously will not qualify given your income level and lack of debt. The Phoenix/Tempe area has little intrinsic appeal and essentially tagged along for the bubble ride meaning no recovery and continued negative cash flow for the forseeable future (5+yrs) if you keep it. It won’t take long to catch up to the 40K potential loss. The short sale option is worth exploring if you can tolerate the bank dragging it out, but it sounds like you’re tired of the game and want to move on. If you pursue the short, don’t worry about the morality aspect of it (ie stiffing taxpayers). It’s perfectly legal and the topic of “Morality and the Law” has been debated every which way since the time of Plato with really no right or wrong answers.

My instinct is to sell the condo, take the loss, and move on. This will immediately reestablish and stabilize your financial baseline and allow you to decisively plan for the future, whether it’s having another child or buy another house. Lastly, try to shed any feelings of entitlement to the 80K you made or the 40K you might lose. No doubt you work hard for your money, but the bitterness will eat you alive and your family will notice it. You folks have a decent income and will survive this regardless of which course you take.

[cabal]

[quote=DWCAP][quote=Cabal]
In retrospect, I should feel lucky to still be married after 21 years. My wife and I are frugal except with our children which we spoil without hesitation.[/quote]

If you or your friends are ever wondering why the younger generations dont seem to have the same values as your generation did, your answer is right there at the end of your quote.[/quote]

First, don’t presume to know my definition of spoil. Did we buy junior a new beemer for his 16th birthday? No, he got the 7 year old beater with 130K miles. Did we fill their time with enriching activities like little league and soccer, send them to nice summer camps, take them on nice vacations, and buy them too many presents at Christmas ? Yes we did and that’s about the extent of it. As for those parents that really do spoil their kids, it doesn’t necessarily mean they are destined to be self-centered, demanding monsters. What you’re talking about is poor parenting skills and that exists in all generations, past and present.

Second, the point of my post was not to rant on the shortcomings of the X,Y, and Z generation, nor to debate the specific goods & services that men and women bring to the marriage horse trading table, but to point out the entitlement to escalating requirements on the female side in comparison to previous generations. There are exceptions of course. But in general, whether its suzie homemaker or the most blatant golddigger, the bar has been raised so high that disappointment is inevitable. If past generations of women were content with family, home and companionship, many women today wouldn’t even consider that the prerequisite. Financial success and all its perks (house, car,vacations) is just one component. If your not the perfect father, provide 24/7 attention, fit, attractive, sense of humor, dress a certain way, etc then you’re inevitable a disappointment. These expectation are independent of the economy. I suggested two factors possibly fanning these residual entitlement tendencies; recent bubbles (stock & RE) and modern feminism. If you or anyone have other theories, I’m listening.

[cabal]

[quote=DWCAP][quote=Cabal]
In retrospect, I should feel lucky to still be married after 21 years. My wife and I are frugal except with our children which we spoil without hesitation.[/quote]

If you or your friends are ever wondering why the younger generations dont seem to have the same values as your generation did, your answer is right there at the end of your quote.[/quote]

First, don’t presume to know my definition of spoil. Did we buy junior a new beemer for his 16th birthday? No, he got the 7 year old beater with 130K miles. Did we fill their time with enriching activities like little league and soccer, send them to nice summer camps, take them on nice vacations, and buy them too many presents at Christmas ? Yes we did and that’s about the extent of it. As for those parents that really do spoil their kids, it doesn’t necessarily mean they are destined to be self-centered, demanding monsters. What you’re talking about is poor parenting skills and that exists in all generations, past and present.

Second, the point of my post was not to rant on the shortcomings of the X,Y, and Z generation, nor to debate the specific goods & services that men and women bring to the marriage horse trading table, but to point out the entitlement to escalating requirements on the female side in comparison to previous generations. There are exceptions of course. But in general, whether its suzie homemaker or the most blatant golddigger, the bar has been raised so high that disappointment is inevitable. If past generations of women were content with family, home and companionship, many women today wouldn’t even consider that the prerequisite. Financial success and all its perks (house, car,vacations) is just one component. If your not the perfect father, provide 24/7 attention, fit, attractive, sense of humor, dress a certain way, etc then you’re inevitable a disappointment. These expectation are independent of the economy. I suggested two factors possibly fanning these residual entitlement tendencies; recent bubbles (stock & RE) and modern feminism. If you or anyone have other theories, I’m listening.

[cabal]

[quote=DWCAP][quote=Cabal]
In retrospect, I should feel lucky to still be married after 21 years. My wife and I are frugal except with our children which we spoil without hesitation.[/quote]

If you or your friends are ever wondering why the younger generations dont seem to have the same values as your generation did, your answer is right there at the end of your quote.[/quote]

First, don’t presume to know my definition of spoil. Did we buy junior a new beemer for his 16th birthday? No, he got the 7 year old beater with 130K miles. Did we fill their time with enriching activities like little league and soccer, send them to nice summer camps, take them on nice vacations, and buy them too many presents at Christmas ? Yes we did and that’s about the extent of it. As for those parents that really do spoil their kids, it doesn’t necessarily mean they are destined to be self-centered, demanding monsters. What you’re talking about is poor parenting skills and that exists in all generations, past and present.

Second, the point of my post was not to rant on the shortcomings of the X,Y, and Z generation, nor to debate the specific goods & services that men and women bring to the marriage horse trading table, but to point out the entitlement to escalating requirements on the female side in comparison to previous generations. There are exceptions of course. But in general, whether its suzie homemaker or the most blatant golddigger, the bar has been raised so high that disappointment is inevitable. If past generations of women were content with family, home and companionship, many women today wouldn’t even consider that the prerequisite. Financial success and all its perks (house, car,vacations) is just one component. If your not the perfect father, provide 24/7 attention, fit, attractive, sense of humor, dress a certain way, etc then you’re inevitable a disappointment. These expectation are independent of the economy. I suggested two factors possibly fanning these residual entitlement tendencies; recent bubbles (stock & RE) and modern feminism. If you or anyone have other theories, I’m listening.

[cabal]

[quote=DWCAP][quote=Cabal]
In retrospect, I should feel lucky to still be married after 21 years. My wife and I are frugal except with our children which we spoil without hesitation.[/quote]

If you or your friends are ever wondering why the younger generations dont seem to have the same values as your generation did, your answer is right there at the end of your quote.[/quote]

First, don’t presume to know my definition of spoil. Did we buy junior a new beemer for his 16th birthday? No, he got the 7 year old beater with 130K miles. Did we fill their time with enriching activities like little league and soccer, send them to nice summer camps, take them on nice vacations, and buy them too many presents at Christmas ? Yes we did and that’s about the extent of it. As for those parents that really do spoil their kids, it doesn’t necessarily mean they are destined to be self-centered, demanding monsters. What you’re talking about is poor parenting skills and that exists in all generations, past and present.

Second, the point of my post was not to rant on the shortcomings of the X,Y, and Z generation, nor to debate the specific goods & services that men and women bring to the marriage horse trading table, but to point out the entitlement to escalating requirements on the female side in comparison to previous generations. There are exceptions of course. But in general, whether its suzie homemaker or the most blatant golddigger, the bar has been raised so high that disappointment is inevitable. If past generations of women were content with family, home and companionship, many women today wouldn’t even consider that the prerequisite. Financial success and all its perks (house, car,vacations) is just one component. If your not the perfect father, provide 24/7 attention, fit, attractive, sense of humor, dress a certain way, etc then you’re inevitable a disappointment. These expectation are independent of the economy. I suggested two factors possibly fanning these residual entitlement tendencies; recent bubbles (stock & RE) and modern feminism. If you or anyone have other theories, I’m listening.

[Author]

Posts