[cabal]

[quote]
BTW, I’d like to know what forces could keep housing prices “artificially” low. To the best of my knowledge, nobody has ever tried to keep housing prices “artificially” low (though that would have benefitted society far more than “artificially high” prices, IMHO). I’ve never seen anything that would cause “artificially low” prices, other than insider deals at banks or S&Ls, but those were never considered “market prices.”[/quote]

The forces of fear and greed drive prices artificially low and high, respectively. These are the prime factors for near term valuation on most assets, equities, etc, not fundamentals.

My recollection from 1990 to present day is as follows:

1990-1997: Slight dip, but essentially flat. If you got a good deal in 1990 in a good location, you didn’t see any depreciation. I bought a house in 90/91 with fair market value near 280K for 250K. Based on the occasional sale in the neighborhood, I’m pretty sure I could’ve sold it conservatively for 260K anytime during this period.

1997-1998: Based on trends from the 80s, there was a belief by many in the so called 8-10 yr cycle. Applied to the 90s, the flat prices from 1990-1997should be followed by 2-3 yrs of exceptional appreciation. Many people started to look casually, either to upgrade or invest in rental property. In parallel, people also noticed abnormal movement in the Nasdaq, which removed focus on real estate to some degree. Regardless, prices did start to trend up with above average slope. I don’t recall lines, but any development you visited, the choicest lots were always soldout by day 1. However, you can go back a month later and find 50% of any phase still available.

1999-2000: Crazy years! The dotcom bubble was in full bloom. I remember doing an informal survey at work and concluded 50% of the employees were actively day trading, especially engineers. Anyone breathing was making money, big money. I knew one engineer with a 100K salary that made and lost 1M in one year. As an added bonus, employees in companies like Intel & Qualcomm (Quillionaires) that offered lucrative stock options essentially double dipped. People were euphoric, buying toys and having kids. Eventually bubble popped and many cashed out well in the black.

2001-2002: Interest rates were slashed from 7-8% to under 6% to combat potential recession from dotcom crash and 9/11. At the same time, home designs really improved moving away from large useless LR/DR to large functional kitchen/FR. Attractive features normally reserved for high end homes started to show up in midrange homes, such as walkin closets, large pantry, courtyards, granite, etc. These two factors, coupled with obscene cash from the dotcom bubble, and needs of a growing family really ignited the bubble imo.

2003-present: Housing bubble goes exponential with creative financing and the rest is history.

[cabal]

Nice picture. In 3 years, when the 1gal/5gal plants and small trees grow up it can look like that if you space the plants correctly. While the ISO view is nice, it’s hard to gage depth and overall boundaries of the lot. I think you’ll get more feedback if you link a landscaped topview. Second, do you have shade anywhere else in the yard? That little umbrella is insufficient for gatherings and may shade 2 people depending on sun angle. I would probably build a patio cover over a portion of your left patio, leaving the other half open for sunbathing. It doesn’t look too wide, so footings can be poured into the grass and slope. The elevated rock formation patio looks ideal for a portable firepit surrounded by a few chairs. Regarding the BBQ location, I have the same problem in that the pool is far from the house. I decided to build it by the pool. It’s great for parties, but a pain walking back & forth to the house when grilling for family. A multipurpose bench structure by the spa would be ideal. You can sit there to cool off, build storage underneath, add an adjacent refrigerator, and build an open shower behind it.

Be sure to check your roof tiles before & after Solar installation. I found 2 cracked tiles on mine after install and made the contractor replace them. If you’re going to dig up your yard and don’t have a pool autofill, consider putting one in, they’re worth it. I was too cheap to install one and now I have to manually turn the water on every week. One time I forgot to turn it off and flooded my entire backyard. Anyways, congats on getting your pleasure palace in order. You’re going to make the Pigg renter contingent awfully jealous.

[cabal]

Nice picture. In 3 years, when the 1gal/5gal plants and small trees grow up it can look like that if you space the plants correctly. While the ISO view is nice, it’s hard to gage depth and overall boundaries of the lot. I think you’ll get more feedback if you link a landscaped topview. Second, do you have shade anywhere else in the yard? That little umbrella is insufficient for gatherings and may shade 2 people depending on sun angle. I would probably build a patio cover over a portion of your left patio, leaving the other half open for sunbathing. It doesn’t look too wide, so footings can be poured into the grass and slope. The elevated rock formation patio looks ideal for a portable firepit surrounded by a few chairs. Regarding the BBQ location, I have the same problem in that the pool is far from the house. I decided to build it by the pool. It’s great for parties, but a pain walking back & forth to the house when grilling for family. A multipurpose bench structure by the spa would be ideal. You can sit there to cool off, build storage underneath, add an adjacent refrigerator, and build an open shower behind it.

Be sure to check your roof tiles before & after Solar installation. I found 2 cracked tiles on mine after install and made the contractor replace them. If you’re going to dig up your yard and don’t have a pool autofill, consider putting one in, they’re worth it. I was too cheap to install one and now I have to manually turn the water on every week. One time I forgot to turn it off and flooded my entire backyard. Anyways, congats on getting your pleasure palace in order. You’re going to make the Pigg renter contingent awfully jealous.

[cabal]

Nice picture. In 3 years, when the 1gal/5gal plants and small trees grow up it can look like that if you space the plants correctly. While the ISO view is nice, it’s hard to gage depth and overall boundaries of the lot. I think you’ll get more feedback if you link a landscaped topview. Second, do you have shade anywhere else in the yard? That little umbrella is insufficient for gatherings and may shade 2 people depending on sun angle. I would probably build a patio cover over a portion of your left patio, leaving the other half open for sunbathing. It doesn’t look too wide, so footings can be poured into the grass and slope. The elevated rock formation patio looks ideal for a portable firepit surrounded by a few chairs. Regarding the BBQ location, I have the same problem in that the pool is far from the house. I decided to build it by the pool. It’s great for parties, but a pain walking back & forth to the house when grilling for family. A multipurpose bench structure by the spa would be ideal. You can sit there to cool off, build storage underneath, add an adjacent refrigerator, and build an open shower behind it.

Be sure to check your roof tiles before & after Solar installation. I found 2 cracked tiles on mine after install and made the contractor replace them. If you’re going to dig up your yard and don’t have a pool autofill, consider putting one in, they’re worth it. I was too cheap to install one and now I have to manually turn the water on every week. One time I forgot to turn it off and flooded my entire backyard. Anyways, congats on getting your pleasure palace in order. You’re going to make the Pigg renter contingent awfully jealous.

[cabal]

Nice picture. In 3 years, when the 1gal/5gal plants and small trees grow up it can look like that if you space the plants correctly. While the ISO view is nice, it’s hard to gage depth and overall boundaries of the lot. I think you’ll get more feedback if you link a landscaped topview. Second, do you have shade anywhere else in the yard? That little umbrella is insufficient for gatherings and may shade 2 people depending on sun angle. I would probably build a patio cover over a portion of your left patio, leaving the other half open for sunbathing. It doesn’t look too wide, so footings can be poured into the grass and slope. The elevated rock formation patio looks ideal for a portable firepit surrounded by a few chairs. Regarding the BBQ location, I have the same problem in that the pool is far from the house. I decided to build it by the pool. It’s great for parties, but a pain walking back & forth to the house when grilling for family. A multipurpose bench structure by the spa would be ideal. You can sit there to cool off, build storage underneath, add an adjacent refrigerator, and build an open shower behind it.

Be sure to check your roof tiles before & after Solar installation. I found 2 cracked tiles on mine after install and made the contractor replace them. If you’re going to dig up your yard and don’t have a pool autofill, consider putting one in, they’re worth it. I was too cheap to install one and now I have to manually turn the water on every week. One time I forgot to turn it off and flooded my entire backyard. Anyways, congats on getting your pleasure palace in order. You’re going to make the Pigg renter contingent awfully jealous.

[cabal]

Nice picture. In 3 years, when the 1gal/5gal plants and small trees grow up it can look like that if you space the plants correctly. While the ISO view is nice, it’s hard to gage depth and overall boundaries of the lot. I think you’ll get more feedback if you link a landscaped topview. Second, do you have shade anywhere else in the yard? That little umbrella is insufficient for gatherings and may shade 2 people depending on sun angle. I would probably build a patio cover over a portion of your left patio, leaving the other half open for sunbathing. It doesn’t look too wide, so footings can be poured into the grass and slope. The elevated rock formation patio looks ideal for a portable firepit surrounded by a few chairs. Regarding the BBQ location, I have the same problem in that the pool is far from the house. I decided to build it by the pool. It’s great for parties, but a pain walking back & forth to the house when grilling for family. A multipurpose bench structure by the spa would be ideal. You can sit there to cool off, build storage underneath, add an adjacent refrigerator, and build an open shower behind it.

Be sure to check your roof tiles before & after Solar installation. I found 2 cracked tiles on mine after install and made the contractor replace them. If you’re going to dig up your yard and don’t have a pool autofill, consider putting one in, they’re worth it. I was too cheap to install one and now I have to manually turn the water on every week. One time I forgot to turn it off and flooded my entire backyard. Anyways, congats on getting your pleasure palace in order. You’re going to make the Pigg renter contingent awfully jealous.

[cabal]

It’s rather striking to contrast your post against the derisive and predominately doomsday posts from a year ago. Another example of the contrarian adage – Buy when there is blood on the streets, even if the blood is your own. Anyone paying attention would have noticed most home valuation metrics were well into historical norms by late 2008. The only question was the amount of overcorrection and corresponding timescale. The takeaway is don’t be afraid to leave the herd when numbers start to make sense as this is how real wealth is made more often than it is lost. Imagine home shopping in late 2008 – total leverage over seller, little competition, pick of the litter home, low rates, in effect the perfect storm.

Here are some suggestions.

(1)Don’t mention your realtor. Sellers traditionally pay the commission and no one you approach is going to pay your realtor. You will have to pay your realtor or attorney to review the deal in the background transparent to the seller.

(2)Look for homes for rent in your target neighborhood. With a little research, you can determine who is distressed. Start a casual conversation and eventually mention you are renting, but want to buy when the market stabilizes. At the end of the conversation, say you really like the house and ask if he would consider selling.

(3)Compile a list of expired listings. Go to the houses you like on Sunday, preferably with wife and kids. Say you’re out house hunting, found their expired listing, and decided to stop by to ask if they are considering relisting in the near future. Pay close attention to body language and go from there. Be polite, non-threatening and passive in your words and tone.

(4)Many communities have their own private or personalized website to facilitate communication of events, resource sharing, etc. Introduce yourself there and say my family really likes the neighborhood and would like to live there. Contact me directly if you are considering selling and save on the commission.

(5)If you happen to live in your target neighborhood, networking is the way to go. Attend the local church, get involved in school and extracurricular activities if you have kids.

(6)As a last resort, scour craigslist for people renting individual bedrooms or search the assessors site for late property tax payments. Odds of someone biting are very low, but it doesn’t hurt to try.

[cabal]

It’s rather striking to contrast your post against the derisive and predominately doomsday posts from a year ago. Another example of the contrarian adage – Buy when there is blood on the streets, even if the blood is your own. Anyone paying attention would have noticed most home valuation metrics were well into historical norms by late 2008. The only question was the amount of overcorrection and corresponding timescale. The takeaway is don’t be afraid to leave the herd when numbers start to make sense as this is how real wealth is made more often than it is lost. Imagine home shopping in late 2008 – total leverage over seller, little competition, pick of the litter home, low rates, in effect the perfect storm.

Here are some suggestions.

(1)Don’t mention your realtor. Sellers traditionally pay the commission and no one you approach is going to pay your realtor. You will have to pay your realtor or attorney to review the deal in the background transparent to the seller.

(2)Look for homes for rent in your target neighborhood. With a little research, you can determine who is distressed. Start a casual conversation and eventually mention you are renting, but want to buy when the market stabilizes. At the end of the conversation, say you really like the house and ask if he would consider selling.

(3)Compile a list of expired listings. Go to the houses you like on Sunday, preferably with wife and kids. Say you’re out house hunting, found their expired listing, and decided to stop by to ask if they are considering relisting in the near future. Pay close attention to body language and go from there. Be polite, non-threatening and passive in your words and tone.

(4)Many communities have their own private or personalized website to facilitate communication of events, resource sharing, etc. Introduce yourself there and say my family really likes the neighborhood and would like to live there. Contact me directly if you are considering selling and save on the commission.

(5)If you happen to live in your target neighborhood, networking is the way to go. Attend the local church, get involved in school and extracurricular activities if you have kids.

(6)As a last resort, scour craigslist for people renting individual bedrooms or search the assessors site for late property tax payments. Odds of someone biting are very low, but it doesn’t hurt to try.

[cabal]

It’s rather striking to contrast your post against the derisive and predominately doomsday posts from a year ago. Another example of the contrarian adage – Buy when there is blood on the streets, even if the blood is your own. Anyone paying attention would have noticed most home valuation metrics were well into historical norms by late 2008. The only question was the amount of overcorrection and corresponding timescale. The takeaway is don’t be afraid to leave the herd when numbers start to make sense as this is how real wealth is made more often than it is lost. Imagine home shopping in late 2008 – total leverage over seller, little competition, pick of the litter home, low rates, in effect the perfect storm.

Here are some suggestions.

(1)Don’t mention your realtor. Sellers traditionally pay the commission and no one you approach is going to pay your realtor. You will have to pay your realtor or attorney to review the deal in the background transparent to the seller.

(2)Look for homes for rent in your target neighborhood. With a little research, you can determine who is distressed. Start a casual conversation and eventually mention you are renting, but want to buy when the market stabilizes. At the end of the conversation, say you really like the house and ask if he would consider selling.

(3)Compile a list of expired listings. Go to the houses you like on Sunday, preferably with wife and kids. Say you’re out house hunting, found their expired listing, and decided to stop by to ask if they are considering relisting in the near future. Pay close attention to body language and go from there. Be polite, non-threatening and passive in your words and tone.

(4)Many communities have their own private or personalized website to facilitate communication of events, resource sharing, etc. Introduce yourself there and say my family really likes the neighborhood and would like to live there. Contact me directly if you are considering selling and save on the commission.

(5)If you happen to live in your target neighborhood, networking is the way to go. Attend the local church, get involved in school and extracurricular activities if you have kids.

(6)As a last resort, scour craigslist for people renting individual bedrooms or search the assessors site for late property tax payments. Odds of someone biting are very low, but it doesn’t hurt to try.

[cabal]

It’s rather striking to contrast your post against the derisive and predominately doomsday posts from a year ago. Another example of the contrarian adage – Buy when there is blood on the streets, even if the blood is your own. Anyone paying attention would have noticed most home valuation metrics were well into historical norms by late 2008. The only question was the amount of overcorrection and corresponding timescale. The takeaway is don’t be afraid to leave the herd when numbers start to make sense as this is how real wealth is made more often than it is lost. Imagine home shopping in late 2008 – total leverage over seller, little competition, pick of the litter home, low rates, in effect the perfect storm.

Here are some suggestions.

(1)Don’t mention your realtor. Sellers traditionally pay the commission and no one you approach is going to pay your realtor. You will have to pay your realtor or attorney to review the deal in the background transparent to the seller.

(2)Look for homes for rent in your target neighborhood. With a little research, you can determine who is distressed. Start a casual conversation and eventually mention you are renting, but want to buy when the market stabilizes. At the end of the conversation, say you really like the house and ask if he would consider selling.

(3)Compile a list of expired listings. Go to the houses you like on Sunday, preferably with wife and kids. Say you’re out house hunting, found their expired listing, and decided to stop by to ask if they are considering relisting in the near future. Pay close attention to body language and go from there. Be polite, non-threatening and passive in your words and tone.

(4)Many communities have their own private or personalized website to facilitate communication of events, resource sharing, etc. Introduce yourself there and say my family really likes the neighborhood and would like to live there. Contact me directly if you are considering selling and save on the commission.

(5)If you happen to live in your target neighborhood, networking is the way to go. Attend the local church, get involved in school and extracurricular activities if you have kids.

(6)As a last resort, scour craigslist for people renting individual bedrooms or search the assessors site for late property tax payments. Odds of someone biting are very low, but it doesn’t hurt to try.

[cabal]

It’s rather striking to contrast your post against the derisive and predominately doomsday posts from a year ago. Another example of the contrarian adage – Buy when there is blood on the streets, even if the blood is your own. Anyone paying attention would have noticed most home valuation metrics were well into historical norms by late 2008. The only question was the amount of overcorrection and corresponding timescale. The takeaway is don’t be afraid to leave the herd when numbers start to make sense as this is how real wealth is made more often than it is lost. Imagine home shopping in late 2008 – total leverage over seller, little competition, pick of the litter home, low rates, in effect the perfect storm.

Here are some suggestions.

(1)Don’t mention your realtor. Sellers traditionally pay the commission and no one you approach is going to pay your realtor. You will have to pay your realtor or attorney to review the deal in the background transparent to the seller.

(2)Look for homes for rent in your target neighborhood. With a little research, you can determine who is distressed. Start a casual conversation and eventually mention you are renting, but want to buy when the market stabilizes. At the end of the conversation, say you really like the house and ask if he would consider selling.

(3)Compile a list of expired listings. Go to the houses you like on Sunday, preferably with wife and kids. Say you’re out house hunting, found their expired listing, and decided to stop by to ask if they are considering relisting in the near future. Pay close attention to body language and go from there. Be polite, non-threatening and passive in your words and tone.

(4)Many communities have their own private or personalized website to facilitate communication of events, resource sharing, etc. Introduce yourself there and say my family really likes the neighborhood and would like to live there. Contact me directly if you are considering selling and save on the commission.

(5)If you happen to live in your target neighborhood, networking is the way to go. Attend the local church, get involved in school and extracurricular activities if you have kids.

(6)As a last resort, scour craigslist for people renting individual bedrooms or search the assessors site for late property tax payments. Odds of someone biting are very low, but it doesn’t hurt to try.

[cabal]

[quote=ucodegen]

If you don’t like paying for Jose’s kid, then why are you OK with paying for Joe’s kid?

Both Joe’s kids and Jose’s kids are going to end up in US communities as adults (like it or not). So perhaps we should educate them both.

The only problem is that to provide for Jose’s kid, we have to take away from Joe’s kid.. or Juan’s kid. Juan being the person who took the legal way in. It create a moral conundrum. You end up punishing someone for doing it right and legal, and rewarding someone for doing it illegally
(Ironically, similar to some of the stuff with real estate mortgages right now). Unfortunately the ones at receiving end are the kids, as proxies for their parents behavior or the behavior of other parents. Kids of legal parents get punished because of class crowding, teachers having to spend extra time bring kids of illegals up to speed. On the other hand, to deny kids of illegals an education, punishes those kids for the behavior of their parents. Either way, a decision has to be made.[/quote]

Another entertaining Piggington thread. Under current law, there should be no problem because Joe, Jose or Juan’s children are all US citizens entitled to equal educational benefits . Your issues are with the applicability of the 14th amendment Section 1 and allocation of tax revenues.

Vesting citizenship by birthplace in a constitutional amendment was originally intended to provide guaranteed protection for freed slaves against injustices such as the Dred Scott supreme court decision, specifically protection against deportation and the right to life, liberty and property. I tend to agree the loophole for anchor babies should be closed as illegal immigrants have little analogy to the slave situation, probably. What gives me some pause is the philosophical argument of Deistic “Natural Rights” espoused by our Founding Fathers, or the unalienable right to life, liberty and property vested to all humans outside and above any govt rights. Citizenship by birthplace (Jus Solis), rooted in English common law, was instituted for pragmatic reasons, to facilitate nation building by attaining labor and skillsets via a growing population. If a child born on US soil of illegal parents say in the sparse west late 1800s, I doubt anyone would have an issue recognizing that childs citizenship. It feels odd to me that limited resources is now sufficient grounds to deny this settled right. For me, the question is does an innocent child born of illegal parents who has committed no crime, who if able to speak accepts the jurisdiction of this country, and who grows up to be a productive member of society have the right of citizenship?

As for how Uncle Sam spends/wastes our tax dollars, educating legal children of illegal immigrants doesn’t even crack my worst top ten list. For better or worse, we live in a republic, not a true democracy. This means we don’t decide anything, we elect others to decide for us. I’m not fond of our progressive tax system, or taxation for redistribution since I’m in the highest tax bracket, but consume no more public resources than the average person. Too bad.

I don’t agree Juanitas parents should try to sneak her into this country. But for the record, I admire SK in CVs unconditional love for the well being of innocent children whose circumstances are no fault of their own. Some may call this naïve, I see it as a sign of nobility.

[cabal]

[quote=ucodegen]

If you don’t like paying for Jose’s kid, then why are you OK with paying for Joe’s kid?

Both Joe’s kids and Jose’s kids are going to end up in US communities as adults (like it or not). So perhaps we should educate them both.

The only problem is that to provide for Jose’s kid, we have to take away from Joe’s kid.. or Juan’s kid. Juan being the person who took the legal way in. It create a moral conundrum. You end up punishing someone for doing it right and legal, and rewarding someone for doing it illegally
(Ironically, similar to some of the stuff with real estate mortgages right now). Unfortunately the ones at receiving end are the kids, as proxies for their parents behavior or the behavior of other parents. Kids of legal parents get punished because of class crowding, teachers having to spend extra time bring kids of illegals up to speed. On the other hand, to deny kids of illegals an education, punishes those kids for the behavior of their parents. Either way, a decision has to be made.[/quote]

Another entertaining Piggington thread. Under current law, there should be no problem because Joe, Jose or Juan’s children are all US citizens entitled to equal educational benefits . Your issues are with the applicability of the 14th amendment Section 1 and allocation of tax revenues.

Vesting citizenship by birthplace in a constitutional amendment was originally intended to provide guaranteed protection for freed slaves against injustices such as the Dred Scott supreme court decision, specifically protection against deportation and the right to life, liberty and property. I tend to agree the loophole for anchor babies should be closed as illegal immigrants have little analogy to the slave situation, probably. What gives me some pause is the philosophical argument of Deistic “Natural Rights” espoused by our Founding Fathers, or the unalienable right to life, liberty and property vested to all humans outside and above any govt rights. Citizenship by birthplace (Jus Solis), rooted in English common law, was instituted for pragmatic reasons, to facilitate nation building by attaining labor and skillsets via a growing population. If a child born on US soil of illegal parents say in the sparse west late 1800s, I doubt anyone would have an issue recognizing that childs citizenship. It feels odd to me that limited resources is now sufficient grounds to deny this settled right. For me, the question is does an innocent child born of illegal parents who has committed no crime, who if able to speak accepts the jurisdiction of this country, and who grows up to be a productive member of society have the right of citizenship?

As for how Uncle Sam spends/wastes our tax dollars, educating legal children of illegal immigrants doesn’t even crack my worst top ten list. For better or worse, we live in a republic, not a true democracy. This means we don’t decide anything, we elect others to decide for us. I’m not fond of our progressive tax system, or taxation for redistribution since I’m in the highest tax bracket, but consume no more public resources than the average person. Too bad.

I don’t agree Juanitas parents should try to sneak her into this country. But for the record, I admire SK in CVs unconditional love for the well being of innocent children whose circumstances are no fault of their own. Some may call this naïve, I see it as a sign of nobility.

[cabal]

[quote=ucodegen]

If you don’t like paying for Jose’s kid, then why are you OK with paying for Joe’s kid?

Both Joe’s kids and Jose’s kids are going to end up in US communities as adults (like it or not). So perhaps we should educate them both.

The only problem is that to provide for Jose’s kid, we have to take away from Joe’s kid.. or Juan’s kid. Juan being the person who took the legal way in. It create a moral conundrum. You end up punishing someone for doing it right and legal, and rewarding someone for doing it illegally
(Ironically, similar to some of the stuff with real estate mortgages right now). Unfortunately the ones at receiving end are the kids, as proxies for their parents behavior or the behavior of other parents. Kids of legal parents get punished because of class crowding, teachers having to spend extra time bring kids of illegals up to speed. On the other hand, to deny kids of illegals an education, punishes those kids for the behavior of their parents. Either way, a decision has to be made.[/quote]

Another entertaining Piggington thread. Under current law, there should be no problem because Joe, Jose or Juan’s children are all US citizens entitled to equal educational benefits . Your issues are with the applicability of the 14th amendment Section 1 and allocation of tax revenues.

Vesting citizenship by birthplace in a constitutional amendment was originally intended to provide guaranteed protection for freed slaves against injustices such as the Dred Scott supreme court decision, specifically protection against deportation and the right to life, liberty and property. I tend to agree the loophole for anchor babies should be closed as illegal immigrants have little analogy to the slave situation, probably. What gives me some pause is the philosophical argument of Deistic “Natural Rights” espoused by our Founding Fathers, or the unalienable right to life, liberty and property vested to all humans outside and above any govt rights. Citizenship by birthplace (Jus Solis), rooted in English common law, was instituted for pragmatic reasons, to facilitate nation building by attaining labor and skillsets via a growing population. If a child born on US soil of illegal parents say in the sparse west late 1800s, I doubt anyone would have an issue recognizing that childs citizenship. It feels odd to me that limited resources is now sufficient grounds to deny this settled right. For me, the question is does an innocent child born of illegal parents who has committed no crime, who if able to speak accepts the jurisdiction of this country, and who grows up to be a productive member of society have the right of citizenship?

As for how Uncle Sam spends/wastes our tax dollars, educating legal children of illegal immigrants doesn’t even crack my worst top ten list. For better or worse, we live in a republic, not a true democracy. This means we don’t decide anything, we elect others to decide for us. I’m not fond of our progressive tax system, or taxation for redistribution since I’m in the highest tax bracket, but consume no more public resources than the average person. Too bad.

I don’t agree Juanitas parents should try to sneak her into this country. But for the record, I admire SK in CVs unconditional love for the well being of innocent children whose circumstances are no fault of their own. Some may call this naïve, I see it as a sign of nobility.

[cabal]

[quote=ucodegen]

If you don’t like paying for Jose’s kid, then why are you OK with paying for Joe’s kid?

Both Joe’s kids and Jose’s kids are going to end up in US communities as adults (like it or not). So perhaps we should educate them both.

The only problem is that to provide for Jose’s kid, we have to take away from Joe’s kid.. or Juan’s kid. Juan being the person who took the legal way in. It create a moral conundrum. You end up punishing someone for doing it right and legal, and rewarding someone for doing it illegally
(Ironically, similar to some of the stuff with real estate mortgages right now). Unfortunately the ones at receiving end are the kids, as proxies for their parents behavior or the behavior of other parents. Kids of legal parents get punished because of class crowding, teachers having to spend extra time bring kids of illegals up to speed. On the other hand, to deny kids of illegals an education, punishes those kids for the behavior of their parents. Either way, a decision has to be made.[/quote]

Another entertaining Piggington thread. Under current law, there should be no problem because Joe, Jose or Juan’s children are all US citizens entitled to equal educational benefits . Your issues are with the applicability of the 14th amendment Section 1 and allocation of tax revenues.

Vesting citizenship by birthplace in a constitutional amendment was originally intended to provide guaranteed protection for freed slaves against injustices such as the Dred Scott supreme court decision, specifically protection against deportation and the right to life, liberty and property. I tend to agree the loophole for anchor babies should be closed as illegal immigrants have little analogy to the slave situation, probably. What gives me some pause is the philosophical argument of Deistic “Natural Rights” espoused by our Founding Fathers, or the unalienable right to life, liberty and property vested to all humans outside and above any govt rights. Citizenship by birthplace (Jus Solis), rooted in English common law, was instituted for pragmatic reasons, to facilitate nation building by attaining labor and skillsets via a growing population. If a child born on US soil of illegal parents say in the sparse west late 1800s, I doubt anyone would have an issue recognizing that childs citizenship. It feels odd to me that limited resources is now sufficient grounds to deny this settled right. For me, the question is does an innocent child born of illegal parents who has committed no crime, who if able to speak accepts the jurisdiction of this country, and who grows up to be a productive member of society have the right of citizenship?

As for how Uncle Sam spends/wastes our tax dollars, educating legal children of illegal immigrants doesn’t even crack my worst top ten list. For better or worse, we live in a republic, not a true democracy. This means we don’t decide anything, we elect others to decide for us. I’m not fond of our progressive tax system, or taxation for redistribution since I’m in the highest tax bracket, but consume no more public resources than the average person. Too bad.

I don’t agree Juanitas parents should try to sneak her into this country. But for the record, I admire SK in CVs unconditional love for the well being of innocent children whose circumstances are no fault of their own. Some may call this naïve, I see it as a sign of nobility.

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