[an]

[quote=CA renter]As you know, we both agree about the fact that college degrees are oversold — we’d be much better off if we provided a top-notch vocational education system for those who don’t go to college.

You’re right about it being more difficult to get into medical school via the CC route, but not at all impossible.

Here’s a success story (one of many) of someone who did just that:

http://www.umassmed.edu/commencement/2010/archive/article/publiceducation.aspx%5B/quote%5D
I agree with you that it’s not impossible. But how many people who go to CC graduate summa cum laude for their BS? BTW, this has nothing to do with my original point that saving from going to CC before CSU/UC is not as big as some believe and might be negative in certain scenario.

[an]

[quote=CA renter]As you know, we both agree about the fact that college degrees are oversold — we’d be much better off if we provided a top-notch vocational education system for those who don’t go to college.

You’re right about it being more difficult to get into medical school via the CC route, but not at all impossible.

Here’s a success story (one of many) of someone who did just that:

http://www.umassmed.edu/commencement/2010/archive/article/publiceducation.aspx%5B/quote%5D
I agree with you that it’s not impossible. But how many people who go to CC graduate summa cum laude for their BS? BTW, this has nothing to do with my original point that saving from going to CC before CSU/UC is not as big as some believe and might be negative in certain scenario.

[an]

[quote=bearishgurl]Your argument here has a minor problem, AN. It is technically now impossible to graduate from most CSU campuses in 4 yrs even if you start there as a freshman – due to recent massive instructor layoffs in many popular degree programs as a result of recent heavy budget cuts. The only way to circumvent this problem is to take the missing credits needed to graduate at summer and/or online classes at a different CSU campus and transfer them to your school.[/quote]
Do you have data behind the “virtually impossible to graduate from most CSU campuses in 4 years”? Even if you’re correct, this is not normal condition, so I don’t suspect this problem to continue. Again, I’m skeptical of this statement.

[quote=bearishgurl]Also, in order to get an “internship,” a student needs to be accepted into a degree program. In order to be accepted into a degree program at CSU, you need at least 56 units of undergrad GE’s completed. These can be obtained economically at the CC level. So whatever kind of job a CC student works will likely have no bearing on whether or not they will be able later to land an internship (when they are qualified to be considered for one).[/quote]
I don’t know about CSU, but it’s not the case for UC. If you want to compete CSU vs CC WRT cost, CSU tuition is $6,562. Tuition for SD CC is ~$1500/year. That’s a cost difference of $4k/year. Do you think it’s worth it to having to deal CC->CSU for a $4k/year saving? This is assuming you’re not taking CC classes while you’re going to SDSU. That would cut down the $4k/year saving in tuition.

[an]

[quote=bearishgurl]Your argument here has a minor problem, AN. It is technically now impossible to graduate from most CSU campuses in 4 yrs even if you start there as a freshman – due to recent massive instructor layoffs in many popular degree programs as a result of recent heavy budget cuts. The only way to circumvent this problem is to take the missing credits needed to graduate at summer and/or online classes at a different CSU campus and transfer them to your school.[/quote]
Do you have data behind the “virtually impossible to graduate from most CSU campuses in 4 years”? Even if you’re correct, this is not normal condition, so I don’t suspect this problem to continue. Again, I’m skeptical of this statement.

[quote=bearishgurl]Also, in order to get an “internship,” a student needs to be accepted into a degree program. In order to be accepted into a degree program at CSU, you need at least 56 units of undergrad GE’s completed. These can be obtained economically at the CC level. So whatever kind of job a CC student works will likely have no bearing on whether or not they will be able later to land an internship (when they are qualified to be considered for one).[/quote]
I don’t know about CSU, but it’s not the case for UC. If you want to compete CSU vs CC WRT cost, CSU tuition is $6,562. Tuition for SD CC is ~$1500/year. That’s a cost difference of $4k/year. Do you think it’s worth it to having to deal CC->CSU for a $4k/year saving? This is assuming you’re not taking CC classes while you’re going to SDSU. That would cut down the $4k/year saving in tuition.

[an]

[quote=bearishgurl]Your argument here has a minor problem, AN. It is technically now impossible to graduate from most CSU campuses in 4 yrs even if you start there as a freshman – due to recent massive instructor layoffs in many popular degree programs as a result of recent heavy budget cuts. The only way to circumvent this problem is to take the missing credits needed to graduate at summer and/or online classes at a different CSU campus and transfer them to your school.[/quote]
Do you have data behind the “virtually impossible to graduate from most CSU campuses in 4 years”? Even if you’re correct, this is not normal condition, so I don’t suspect this problem to continue. Again, I’m skeptical of this statement.

[quote=bearishgurl]Also, in order to get an “internship,” a student needs to be accepted into a degree program. In order to be accepted into a degree program at CSU, you need at least 56 units of undergrad GE’s completed. These can be obtained economically at the CC level. So whatever kind of job a CC student works will likely have no bearing on whether or not they will be able later to land an internship (when they are qualified to be considered for one).[/quote]
I don’t know about CSU, but it’s not the case for UC. If you want to compete CSU vs CC WRT cost, CSU tuition is $6,562. Tuition for SD CC is ~$1500/year. That’s a cost difference of $4k/year. Do you think it’s worth it to having to deal CC->CSU for a $4k/year saving? This is assuming you’re not taking CC classes while you’re going to SDSU. That would cut down the $4k/year saving in tuition.

[an]

[quote=bearishgurl]Your argument here has a minor problem, AN. It is technically now impossible to graduate from most CSU campuses in 4 yrs even if you start there as a freshman – due to recent massive instructor layoffs in many popular degree programs as a result of recent heavy budget cuts. The only way to circumvent this problem is to take the missing credits needed to graduate at summer and/or online classes at a different CSU campus and transfer them to your school.[/quote]
Do you have data behind the “virtually impossible to graduate from most CSU campuses in 4 years”? Even if you’re correct, this is not normal condition, so I don’t suspect this problem to continue. Again, I’m skeptical of this statement.

[quote=bearishgurl]Also, in order to get an “internship,” a student needs to be accepted into a degree program. In order to be accepted into a degree program at CSU, you need at least 56 units of undergrad GE’s completed. These can be obtained economically at the CC level. So whatever kind of job a CC student works will likely have no bearing on whether or not they will be able later to land an internship (when they are qualified to be considered for one).[/quote]
I don’t know about CSU, but it’s not the case for UC. If you want to compete CSU vs CC WRT cost, CSU tuition is $6,562. Tuition for SD CC is ~$1500/year. That’s a cost difference of $4k/year. Do you think it’s worth it to having to deal CC->CSU for a $4k/year saving? This is assuming you’re not taking CC classes while you’re going to SDSU. That would cut down the $4k/year saving in tuition.

[an]

[quote=bearishgurl]Your argument here has a minor problem, AN. It is technically now impossible to graduate from most CSU campuses in 4 yrs even if you start there as a freshman – due to recent massive instructor layoffs in many popular degree programs as a result of recent heavy budget cuts. The only way to circumvent this problem is to take the missing credits needed to graduate at summer and/or online classes at a different CSU campus and transfer them to your school.[/quote]
Do you have data behind the “virtually impossible to graduate from most CSU campuses in 4 years”? Even if you’re correct, this is not normal condition, so I don’t suspect this problem to continue. Again, I’m skeptical of this statement.

[quote=bearishgurl]Also, in order to get an “internship,” a student needs to be accepted into a degree program. In order to be accepted into a degree program at CSU, you need at least 56 units of undergrad GE’s completed. These can be obtained economically at the CC level. So whatever kind of job a CC student works will likely have no bearing on whether or not they will be able later to land an internship (when they are qualified to be considered for one).[/quote]
I don’t know about CSU, but it’s not the case for UC. If you want to compete CSU vs CC WRT cost, CSU tuition is $6,562. Tuition for SD CC is ~$1500/year. That’s a cost difference of $4k/year. Do you think it’s worth it to having to deal CC->CSU for a $4k/year saving? This is assuming you’re not taking CC classes while you’re going to SDSU. That would cut down the $4k/year saving in tuition.

[an]

[quote=CA renter]Not assuming that CSU/UC students don’t work, just that a student who is getting everything paid for is more likely to be at a four-year university/college vs. a CC-univ/college.

BTW, lots of people major in one thing, and then end up in something totally unrelated. My work experience had nothing at all to do with my major, but introduced me to an entirely different career option, which I really enjoyed.[/quote]
That, I agree with. Why go to a CC when you don’t have to worry about the cost of the college. But my initial assertion is that you might save some money up front, but you might end up not saving any or actually be losing money in the grand scheme of things. Also, as I mentioned, internship will open the door to the industry you’re trying to enter w/ your BS/BA. You can’t get internship at a CC AFAIK.

Yes, lots of people major in one thing and end up doing something unrelated. Those people would save a lot of money going to CC while they figure it out. A lot of people don’t need a BS/BA at all. There’s a number I heard where something like 27% of bartender have a BS/BA and something like 15% of taxi drivers have a BS/BA. Those people would have saved a lot of money not going to college. However, there are also just as many people who know exactly what they want to do and have been working toward that goal since HS. For example, it’s unlikely for you to get into med school doing to CC->UC/CSU route. You’ll be competing with kids who score great on SAT/CAT, high HS GPA, high UC/CSU GPA, many many hours of community service, graduate UC/CSU in 4 years while doing all of that. How are you going to stand out doing the CC->UC/CSU route when your competition did everything you did and graduate UC/CSU in 4 years w/ high GPA.

My main point is, if you don’t know what to do with your life, stay in CC and figure it out while save some money. If you know what you want to do/be, the money you save by going to CC first will more than offset by the lost of time. If you’re driven and know what you want to be, you’d already taking lots of AP classes and/or lots of CC classes while you’re in HS. I graduated HS with enough CC credits to almost clear a whole year worth of GE. That allow me to work 20-30 hours a week while still graduating in 4 years.

[an]

[quote=CA renter]Not assuming that CSU/UC students don’t work, just that a student who is getting everything paid for is more likely to be at a four-year university/college vs. a CC-univ/college.

BTW, lots of people major in one thing, and then end up in something totally unrelated. My work experience had nothing at all to do with my major, but introduced me to an entirely different career option, which I really enjoyed.[/quote]
That, I agree with. Why go to a CC when you don’t have to worry about the cost of the college. But my initial assertion is that you might save some money up front, but you might end up not saving any or actually be losing money in the grand scheme of things. Also, as I mentioned, internship will open the door to the industry you’re trying to enter w/ your BS/BA. You can’t get internship at a CC AFAIK.

Yes, lots of people major in one thing and end up doing something unrelated. Those people would save a lot of money going to CC while they figure it out. A lot of people don’t need a BS/BA at all. There’s a number I heard where something like 27% of bartender have a BS/BA and something like 15% of taxi drivers have a BS/BA. Those people would have saved a lot of money not going to college. However, there are also just as many people who know exactly what they want to do and have been working toward that goal since HS. For example, it’s unlikely for you to get into med school doing to CC->UC/CSU route. You’ll be competing with kids who score great on SAT/CAT, high HS GPA, high UC/CSU GPA, many many hours of community service, graduate UC/CSU in 4 years while doing all of that. How are you going to stand out doing the CC->UC/CSU route when your competition did everything you did and graduate UC/CSU in 4 years w/ high GPA.

My main point is, if you don’t know what to do with your life, stay in CC and figure it out while save some money. If you know what you want to do/be, the money you save by going to CC first will more than offset by the lost of time. If you’re driven and know what you want to be, you’d already taking lots of AP classes and/or lots of CC classes while you’re in HS. I graduated HS with enough CC credits to almost clear a whole year worth of GE. That allow me to work 20-30 hours a week while still graduating in 4 years.

[an]

[quote=CA renter]Not assuming that CSU/UC students don’t work, just that a student who is getting everything paid for is more likely to be at a four-year university/college vs. a CC-univ/college.

BTW, lots of people major in one thing, and then end up in something totally unrelated. My work experience had nothing at all to do with my major, but introduced me to an entirely different career option, which I really enjoyed.[/quote]
That, I agree with. Why go to a CC when you don’t have to worry about the cost of the college. But my initial assertion is that you might save some money up front, but you might end up not saving any or actually be losing money in the grand scheme of things. Also, as I mentioned, internship will open the door to the industry you’re trying to enter w/ your BS/BA. You can’t get internship at a CC AFAIK.

Yes, lots of people major in one thing and end up doing something unrelated. Those people would save a lot of money going to CC while they figure it out. A lot of people don’t need a BS/BA at all. There’s a number I heard where something like 27% of bartender have a BS/BA and something like 15% of taxi drivers have a BS/BA. Those people would have saved a lot of money not going to college. However, there are also just as many people who know exactly what they want to do and have been working toward that goal since HS. For example, it’s unlikely for you to get into med school doing to CC->UC/CSU route. You’ll be competing with kids who score great on SAT/CAT, high HS GPA, high UC/CSU GPA, many many hours of community service, graduate UC/CSU in 4 years while doing all of that. How are you going to stand out doing the CC->UC/CSU route when your competition did everything you did and graduate UC/CSU in 4 years w/ high GPA.

My main point is, if you don’t know what to do with your life, stay in CC and figure it out while save some money. If you know what you want to do/be, the money you save by going to CC first will more than offset by the lost of time. If you’re driven and know what you want to be, you’d already taking lots of AP classes and/or lots of CC classes while you’re in HS. I graduated HS with enough CC credits to almost clear a whole year worth of GE. That allow me to work 20-30 hours a week while still graduating in 4 years.

[an]

[quote=CA renter]Not assuming that CSU/UC students don’t work, just that a student who is getting everything paid for is more likely to be at a four-year university/college vs. a CC-univ/college.

BTW, lots of people major in one thing, and then end up in something totally unrelated. My work experience had nothing at all to do with my major, but introduced me to an entirely different career option, which I really enjoyed.[/quote]
That, I agree with. Why go to a CC when you don’t have to worry about the cost of the college. But my initial assertion is that you might save some money up front, but you might end up not saving any or actually be losing money in the grand scheme of things. Also, as I mentioned, internship will open the door to the industry you’re trying to enter w/ your BS/BA. You can’t get internship at a CC AFAIK.

Yes, lots of people major in one thing and end up doing something unrelated. Those people would save a lot of money going to CC while they figure it out. A lot of people don’t need a BS/BA at all. There’s a number I heard where something like 27% of bartender have a BS/BA and something like 15% of taxi drivers have a BS/BA. Those people would have saved a lot of money not going to college. However, there are also just as many people who know exactly what they want to do and have been working toward that goal since HS. For example, it’s unlikely for you to get into med school doing to CC->UC/CSU route. You’ll be competing with kids who score great on SAT/CAT, high HS GPA, high UC/CSU GPA, many many hours of community service, graduate UC/CSU in 4 years while doing all of that. How are you going to stand out doing the CC->UC/CSU route when your competition did everything you did and graduate UC/CSU in 4 years w/ high GPA.

My main point is, if you don’t know what to do with your life, stay in CC and figure it out while save some money. If you know what you want to do/be, the money you save by going to CC first will more than offset by the lost of time. If you’re driven and know what you want to be, you’d already taking lots of AP classes and/or lots of CC classes while you’re in HS. I graduated HS with enough CC credits to almost clear a whole year worth of GE. That allow me to work 20-30 hours a week while still graduating in 4 years.

[an]

[quote=CA renter]Not assuming that CSU/UC students don’t work, just that a student who is getting everything paid for is more likely to be at a four-year university/college vs. a CC-univ/college.

BTW, lots of people major in one thing, and then end up in something totally unrelated. My work experience had nothing at all to do with my major, but introduced me to an entirely different career option, which I really enjoyed.[/quote]
That, I agree with. Why go to a CC when you don’t have to worry about the cost of the college. But my initial assertion is that you might save some money up front, but you might end up not saving any or actually be losing money in the grand scheme of things. Also, as I mentioned, internship will open the door to the industry you’re trying to enter w/ your BS/BA. You can’t get internship at a CC AFAIK.

Yes, lots of people major in one thing and end up doing something unrelated. Those people would save a lot of money going to CC while they figure it out. A lot of people don’t need a BS/BA at all. There’s a number I heard where something like 27% of bartender have a BS/BA and something like 15% of taxi drivers have a BS/BA. Those people would have saved a lot of money not going to college. However, there are also just as many people who know exactly what they want to do and have been working toward that goal since HS. For example, it’s unlikely for you to get into med school doing to CC->UC/CSU route. You’ll be competing with kids who score great on SAT/CAT, high HS GPA, high UC/CSU GPA, many many hours of community service, graduate UC/CSU in 4 years while doing all of that. How are you going to stand out doing the CC->UC/CSU route when your competition did everything you did and graduate UC/CSU in 4 years w/ high GPA.

My main point is, if you don’t know what to do with your life, stay in CC and figure it out while save some money. If you know what you want to do/be, the money you save by going to CC first will more than offset by the lost of time. If you’re driven and know what you want to be, you’d already taking lots of AP classes and/or lots of CC classes while you’re in HS. I graduated HS with enough CC credits to almost clear a whole year worth of GE. That allow me to work 20-30 hours a week while still graduating in 4 years.

[an]

[quote=UCGal]
For the record to all folks (not you sk in cv) who comment about needing tort reform. California has tort reform for medical malpractice and has since 1975. The pain and suffering/punative part of settlements for malpractice are limited to $250k. This is not indexed to inflation, so it’s worth a lot less today than when it was instated. It also caps fees by lawyers, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_Injury_Compensation_Reform_Act

Here in CA we do not need tort reform, because we already have it.
And doctors still have rising medical malpractice insurance costs. I also read that despite this law, medical malpractice has gone up between 190-450% since enacted. (Different sources… different figures, but both still big numbers.)

When you hear about how tort reform will solve the problem, consider whether it’s working in CA, where it’s been in place for 36 years.[/quote]
Good point UCGal. You and a few other have proven me wrong recently about this. I can’t speak for everyone, but the reason I thought about tort reform is because I thought it would bring down malpractice insurance. The root of the problem is the malpractice insurance. I figure, the reason why the insurance company charges so much is because of the malpractice law suits. If malpractice law suit are not as prevalent as I thought and the payout is not nearly as much as I thought, then that mean insurer should be making 200-450% more than they did in 1975, right? Does anyone who are in the know have that data?

Maybe, if the government doesn’t require all doctors to have malpractice insurance, it might lower the malpractice insurance. At a certain point, it wouldn’t be worth it anymore. If the malpractice insurers are charging way too much, then they’ll lose customers. But as it stands today, they can charge way too much and their customers don’t have any choice but to pay up and pass on the cost to their customers.

[an]

[quote=UCGal]
For the record to all folks (not you sk in cv) who comment about needing tort reform. California has tort reform for medical malpractice and has since 1975. The pain and suffering/punative part of settlements for malpractice are limited to $250k. This is not indexed to inflation, so it’s worth a lot less today than when it was instated. It also caps fees by lawyers, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_Injury_Compensation_Reform_Act

Here in CA we do not need tort reform, because we already have it.
And doctors still have rising medical malpractice insurance costs. I also read that despite this law, medical malpractice has gone up between 190-450% since enacted. (Different sources… different figures, but both still big numbers.)

When you hear about how tort reform will solve the problem, consider whether it’s working in CA, where it’s been in place for 36 years.[/quote]
Good point UCGal. You and a few other have proven me wrong recently about this. I can’t speak for everyone, but the reason I thought about tort reform is because I thought it would bring down malpractice insurance. The root of the problem is the malpractice insurance. I figure, the reason why the insurance company charges so much is because of the malpractice law suits. If malpractice law suit are not as prevalent as I thought and the payout is not nearly as much as I thought, then that mean insurer should be making 200-450% more than they did in 1975, right? Does anyone who are in the know have that data?

Maybe, if the government doesn’t require all doctors to have malpractice insurance, it might lower the malpractice insurance. At a certain point, it wouldn’t be worth it anymore. If the malpractice insurers are charging way too much, then they’ll lose customers. But as it stands today, they can charge way too much and their customers don’t have any choice but to pay up and pass on the cost to their customers.

[an]

[quote=UCGal]
For the record to all folks (not you sk in cv) who comment about needing tort reform. California has tort reform for medical malpractice and has since 1975. The pain and suffering/punative part of settlements for malpractice are limited to $250k. This is not indexed to inflation, so it’s worth a lot less today than when it was instated. It also caps fees by lawyers, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_Injury_Compensation_Reform_Act

Here in CA we do not need tort reform, because we already have it.
And doctors still have rising medical malpractice insurance costs. I also read that despite this law, medical malpractice has gone up between 190-450% since enacted. (Different sources… different figures, but both still big numbers.)

When you hear about how tort reform will solve the problem, consider whether it’s working in CA, where it’s been in place for 36 years.[/quote]
Good point UCGal. You and a few other have proven me wrong recently about this. I can’t speak for everyone, but the reason I thought about tort reform is because I thought it would bring down malpractice insurance. The root of the problem is the malpractice insurance. I figure, the reason why the insurance company charges so much is because of the malpractice law suits. If malpractice law suit are not as prevalent as I thought and the payout is not nearly as much as I thought, then that mean insurer should be making 200-450% more than they did in 1975, right? Does anyone who are in the know have that data?

Maybe, if the government doesn’t require all doctors to have malpractice insurance, it might lower the malpractice insurance. At a certain point, it wouldn’t be worth it anymore. If the malpractice insurers are charging way too much, then they’ll lose customers. But as it stands today, they can charge way too much and their customers don’t have any choice but to pay up and pass on the cost to their customers.

[Author]

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