The new smart financial move is walking away

[CA renter]

[quote=davelj][quote=AN]
Are you telling me one can’t find 5 couples who have been happily married for 30+ years? I know 4 in my family who have crossed over the 30 year mark and are plenty happy. Happiness doesn’t mean they don’t fight. But yes, they’re happy and I can see them staying married until they die. [/quote]

A few observations. Half of all marriages end in divorce. A meaningful portion of those that remain married either (1) have a cheating spouse(s), and/or (2) because of kids, finances, reputation, and/or general inertia. Based on my experience, that group is well over half of those that remain married. Now we have to remove the folks that would LIKE to cheat but can’t because they are too undesirable for whatever reason. And we have to recall that many folks SAY they’re happy because it’s the path of least resistance. In your example, AN, how many of these couples in your family that have been married for 30+ years (who say they are happy) would admit they were unhappy in front of other family members? Probably none. Maybe they all are happy; maybe they’re not. But just because they say so, doesn’t make it so. Plenty of people in groups (1) and (2) above tell folks they’re happy, after all, even though they’re not. So, boiling it all down, I’d say the most generous estimate is that perhaps 20% of all married couples are “happy” (although, admittedly, “happy” is a tough term to define – perhaps “content” is better), although the number could easily be half that.

I don’t know many married men that – if they could snap their fingers tomorrow and keep their money and kids and not have a messy divorce – wouldn’t want a divorce. Instead, they endure… and screw around discreetly.[/quote]

Um, dave…

Has it ever occurred to you that happily married men don’t generally hang around with guys who have such an obvious disdain for marriage, monogamy, and women?

Also, why do you think they are honest with you (when telling you they’d prefer to be divorced) when they are dishonest with their wives (assuming they tell their wives they like being married)?

Happy people tend to hang around other happy people, and happily married couples tend to hang around with other happily married couples because we don’t like to hear or see other couples tearing each other apart and hurting one another.

Some of us (yes, even men!) really enjoy being married and being a part of something bigger and better than ourselves. Is it always easy? No way. Does it require personal sacrife? Yes! Is it worth it? For many of us, HELL YES!!! 🙂

[NotCranky]

[quote=CA renter][quote=davelj][quote=AN]
Are you telling me one can’t find 5 couples who have been happily married for 30+ years? I know 4 in my family who have crossed over the 30 year mark and are plenty happy. Happiness doesn’t mean they don’t fight. But yes, they’re happy and I can see them staying married until they die. [/quote]

A few observations. Half of all marriages end in divorce. A meaningful portion of those that remain married either (1) have a cheating spouse(s), and/or (2) because of kids, finances, reputation, and/or general inertia. Based on my experience, that group is well over half of those that remain married. Now we have to remove the folks that would LIKE to cheat but can’t because they are too undesirable for whatever reason. And we have to recall that many folks SAY they’re happy because it’s the path of least resistance. In your example, AN, how many of these couples in your family that have been married for 30+ years (who say they are happy) would admit they were unhappy in front of other family members? Probably none. Maybe they all are happy; maybe they’re not. But just because they say so, doesn’t make it so. Plenty of people in groups (1) and (2) above tell folks they’re happy, after all, even though they’re not. So, boiling it all down, I’d say the most generous estimate is that perhaps 20% of all married couples are “happy” (although, admittedly, “happy” is a tough term to define – perhaps “content” is better), although the number could easily be half that.

I don’t know many married men that – if they could snap their fingers tomorrow and keep their money and kids and not have a messy divorce – wouldn’t want a divorce. Instead, they endure… and screw around discreetly.[/quote]

Um, dave…

Has it ever occurred to you that happily married men don’t generally hang around with guys who have such an obvious disdain for marriage, monogamy, and women?

Also, why do you think they are honest with you (when telling you they’d prefer to be divorced) when they are dishonest with their wives (assuming they tell their wives they like being married)?

Happy people tend to hang around other happy people, and happily married couples tend to hang around with other happily married couples because we don’t like to hear or see other couples tearing each other apart and hurting one another.

Some of us (yes, even men!) really enjoy being married and being a part of something bigger and better than ourselves. Is it always easy? No way. Does it require personal sacrife? Yes! Is it worth it? For many of us, HELL YES!!! :)[/quote]
To Dave, anything but the almost completely inconceivable perfect marriage is a failure, compared to being single in anyway shape or form. I think he is very short sighted in this. Why can’t marriage with all it’s failures be equal, on average, to being single? Even if it ends in divorce, the lives lived in the interim/and after may have been/be no less satisfying or grim than a single person’s had been in the interim. Typical results orientation. If You don’t get to claim yourself a hero at the end of 92 years of happy marriage you lose. Stay single and rag on marriage for those 92 years and you are the stuff…by comparision. Everybody wants to be the stuff.

[NotCranky]

[quote=CA renter][quote=davelj][quote=AN]
Are you telling me one can’t find 5 couples who have been happily married for 30+ years? I know 4 in my family who have crossed over the 30 year mark and are plenty happy. Happiness doesn’t mean they don’t fight. But yes, they’re happy and I can see them staying married until they die. [/quote]

A few observations. Half of all marriages end in divorce. A meaningful portion of those that remain married either (1) have a cheating spouse(s), and/or (2) because of kids, finances, reputation, and/or general inertia. Based on my experience, that group is well over half of those that remain married. Now we have to remove the folks that would LIKE to cheat but can’t because they are too undesirable for whatever reason. And we have to recall that many folks SAY they’re happy because it’s the path of least resistance. In your example, AN, how many of these couples in your family that have been married for 30+ years (who say they are happy) would admit they were unhappy in front of other family members? Probably none. Maybe they all are happy; maybe they’re not. But just because they say so, doesn’t make it so. Plenty of people in groups (1) and (2) above tell folks they’re happy, after all, even though they’re not. So, boiling it all down, I’d say the most generous estimate is that perhaps 20% of all married couples are “happy” (although, admittedly, “happy” is a tough term to define – perhaps “content” is better), although the number could easily be half that.

I don’t know many married men that – if they could snap their fingers tomorrow and keep their money and kids and not have a messy divorce – wouldn’t want a divorce. Instead, they endure… and screw around discreetly.[/quote]

Um, dave…

Has it ever occurred to you that happily married men don’t generally hang around with guys who have such an obvious disdain for marriage, monogamy, and women?

Also, why do you think they are honest with you (when telling you they’d prefer to be divorced) when they are dishonest with their wives (assuming they tell their wives they like being married)?

Happy people tend to hang around other happy people, and happily married couples tend to hang around with other happily married couples because we don’t like to hear or see other couples tearing each other apart and hurting one another.

Some of us (yes, even men!) really enjoy being married and being a part of something bigger and better than ourselves. Is it always easy? No way. Does it require personal sacrife? Yes! Is it worth it? For many of us, HELL YES!!! :)[/quote]
To Dave, anything but the almost completely inconceivable perfect marriage is a failure, compared to being single in anyway shape or form. I think he is very short sighted in this. Why can’t marriage with all it’s failures be equal, on average, to being single? Even if it ends in divorce, the lives lived in the interim/and after may have been/be no less satisfying or grim than a single person’s had been in the interim. Typical results orientation. If You don’t get to claim yourself a hero at the end of 92 years of happy marriage you lose. Stay single and rag on marriage for those 92 years and you are the stuff…by comparision. Everybody wants to be the stuff.

[NotCranky]

[quote=CA renter][quote=davelj][quote=AN]
Are you telling me one can’t find 5 couples who have been happily married for 30+ years? I know 4 in my family who have crossed over the 30 year mark and are plenty happy. Happiness doesn’t mean they don’t fight. But yes, they’re happy and I can see them staying married until they die. [/quote]

A few observations. Half of all marriages end in divorce. A meaningful portion of those that remain married either (1) have a cheating spouse(s), and/or (2) because of kids, finances, reputation, and/or general inertia. Based on my experience, that group is well over half of those that remain married. Now we have to remove the folks that would LIKE to cheat but can’t because they are too undesirable for whatever reason. And we have to recall that many folks SAY they’re happy because it’s the path of least resistance. In your example, AN, how many of these couples in your family that have been married for 30+ years (who say they are happy) would admit they were unhappy in front of other family members? Probably none. Maybe they all are happy; maybe they’re not. But just because they say so, doesn’t make it so. Plenty of people in groups (1) and (2) above tell folks they’re happy, after all, even though they’re not. So, boiling it all down, I’d say the most generous estimate is that perhaps 20% of all married couples are “happy” (although, admittedly, “happy” is a tough term to define – perhaps “content” is better), although the number could easily be half that.

I don’t know many married men that – if they could snap their fingers tomorrow and keep their money and kids and not have a messy divorce – wouldn’t want a divorce. Instead, they endure… and screw around discreetly.[/quote]

Um, dave…

Has it ever occurred to you that happily married men don’t generally hang around with guys who have such an obvious disdain for marriage, monogamy, and women?

Also, why do you think they are honest with you (when telling you they’d prefer to be divorced) when they are dishonest with their wives (assuming they tell their wives they like being married)?

Happy people tend to hang around other happy people, and happily married couples tend to hang around with other happily married couples because we don’t like to hear or see other couples tearing each other apart and hurting one another.

Some of us (yes, even men!) really enjoy being married and being a part of something bigger and better than ourselves. Is it always easy? No way. Does it require personal sacrife? Yes! Is it worth it? For many of us, HELL YES!!! :)[/quote]
To Dave, anything but the almost completely inconceivable perfect marriage is a failure, compared to being single in anyway shape or form. I think he is very short sighted in this. Why can’t marriage with all it’s failures be equal, on average, to being single? Even if it ends in divorce, the lives lived in the interim/and after may have been/be no less satisfying or grim than a single person’s had been in the interim. Typical results orientation. If You don’t get to claim yourself a hero at the end of 92 years of happy marriage you lose. Stay single and rag on marriage for those 92 years and you are the stuff…by comparision. Everybody wants to be the stuff.

[NotCranky]

[quote=CA renter][quote=davelj][quote=AN]
Are you telling me one can’t find 5 couples who have been happily married for 30+ years? I know 4 in my family who have crossed over the 30 year mark and are plenty happy. Happiness doesn’t mean they don’t fight. But yes, they’re happy and I can see them staying married until they die. [/quote]

A few observations. Half of all marriages end in divorce. A meaningful portion of those that remain married either (1) have a cheating spouse(s), and/or (2) because of kids, finances, reputation, and/or general inertia. Based on my experience, that group is well over half of those that remain married. Now we have to remove the folks that would LIKE to cheat but can’t because they are too undesirable for whatever reason. And we have to recall that many folks SAY they’re happy because it’s the path of least resistance. In your example, AN, how many of these couples in your family that have been married for 30+ years (who say they are happy) would admit they were unhappy in front of other family members? Probably none. Maybe they all are happy; maybe they’re not. But just because they say so, doesn’t make it so. Plenty of people in groups (1) and (2) above tell folks they’re happy, after all, even though they’re not. So, boiling it all down, I’d say the most generous estimate is that perhaps 20% of all married couples are “happy” (although, admittedly, “happy” is a tough term to define – perhaps “content” is better), although the number could easily be half that.

I don’t know many married men that – if they could snap their fingers tomorrow and keep their money and kids and not have a messy divorce – wouldn’t want a divorce. Instead, they endure… and screw around discreetly.[/quote]

Um, dave…

Has it ever occurred to you that happily married men don’t generally hang around with guys who have such an obvious disdain for marriage, monogamy, and women?

Also, why do you think they are honest with you (when telling you they’d prefer to be divorced) when they are dishonest with their wives (assuming they tell their wives they like being married)?

Happy people tend to hang around other happy people, and happily married couples tend to hang around with other happily married couples because we don’t like to hear or see other couples tearing each other apart and hurting one another.

Some of us (yes, even men!) really enjoy being married and being a part of something bigger and better than ourselves. Is it always easy? No way. Does it require personal sacrife? Yes! Is it worth it? For many of us, HELL YES!!! :)[/quote]
To Dave, anything but the almost completely inconceivable perfect marriage is a failure, compared to being single in anyway shape or form. I think he is very short sighted in this. Why can’t marriage with all it’s failures be equal, on average, to being single? Even if it ends in divorce, the lives lived in the interim/and after may have been/be no less satisfying or grim than a single person’s had been in the interim. Typical results orientation. If You don’t get to claim yourself a hero at the end of 92 years of happy marriage you lose. Stay single and rag on marriage for those 92 years and you are the stuff…by comparision. Everybody wants to be the stuff.

[NotCranky]

[quote=CA renter][quote=davelj][quote=AN]
Are you telling me one can’t find 5 couples who have been happily married for 30+ years? I know 4 in my family who have crossed over the 30 year mark and are plenty happy. Happiness doesn’t mean they don’t fight. But yes, they’re happy and I can see them staying married until they die. [/quote]

A few observations. Half of all marriages end in divorce. A meaningful portion of those that remain married either (1) have a cheating spouse(s), and/or (2) because of kids, finances, reputation, and/or general inertia. Based on my experience, that group is well over half of those that remain married. Now we have to remove the folks that would LIKE to cheat but can’t because they are too undesirable for whatever reason. And we have to recall that many folks SAY they’re happy because it’s the path of least resistance. In your example, AN, how many of these couples in your family that have been married for 30+ years (who say they are happy) would admit they were unhappy in front of other family members? Probably none. Maybe they all are happy; maybe they’re not. But just because they say so, doesn’t make it so. Plenty of people in groups (1) and (2) above tell folks they’re happy, after all, even though they’re not. So, boiling it all down, I’d say the most generous estimate is that perhaps 20% of all married couples are “happy” (although, admittedly, “happy” is a tough term to define – perhaps “content” is better), although the number could easily be half that.

I don’t know many married men that – if they could snap their fingers tomorrow and keep their money and kids and not have a messy divorce – wouldn’t want a divorce. Instead, they endure… and screw around discreetly.[/quote]

Um, dave…

Has it ever occurred to you that happily married men don’t generally hang around with guys who have such an obvious disdain for marriage, monogamy, and women?

Also, why do you think they are honest with you (when telling you they’d prefer to be divorced) when they are dishonest with their wives (assuming they tell their wives they like being married)?

Happy people tend to hang around other happy people, and happily married couples tend to hang around with other happily married couples because we don’t like to hear or see other couples tearing each other apart and hurting one another.

Some of us (yes, even men!) really enjoy being married and being a part of something bigger and better than ourselves. Is it always easy? No way. Does it require personal sacrife? Yes! Is it worth it? For many of us, HELL YES!!! :)[/quote]
To Dave, anything but the almost completely inconceivable perfect marriage is a failure, compared to being single in anyway shape or form. I think he is very short sighted in this. Why can’t marriage with all it’s failures be equal, on average, to being single? Even if it ends in divorce, the lives lived in the interim/and after may have been/be no less satisfying or grim than a single person’s had been in the interim. Typical results orientation. If You don’t get to claim yourself a hero at the end of 92 years of happy marriage you lose. Stay single and rag on marriage for those 92 years and you are the stuff…by comparision. Everybody wants to be the stuff.

[briansd1]

I agree with Dave.

In the institution of marriage there are too many ties that bind. It’s very hard to sever those ties without suffering dire consequences. So people will remain together just because of a lack of alternatives.

For example, if you don’t like your job, you can quit. But many stay with jobs they hate their whole lives. Why? Because quitting means no more income and other dire consequences.

In the military, once you commit to a certain time, you can’t quit no matter what. The consequences of quitting are grave. So you stay on and eventually your claim pride in service and happiness.

I think that the French idea of cohabitation is more in line with free-will and happiness.

Why do you need marriage to obligate you to one another? Isn’t love stronger than any piece of paper? Apparently not.

To me, happiness is what YOU want to do at any point in time. Sacrificing yourself for others or a greater cause is very lofty. In the end, you may reflect back and find happiness but you may actually suffer during.

[briansd1]

I agree with Dave.

In the institution of marriage there are too many ties that bind. It’s very hard to sever those ties without suffering dire consequences. So people will remain together just because of a lack of alternatives.

For example, if you don’t like your job, you can quit. But many stay with jobs they hate their whole lives. Why? Because quitting means no more income and other dire consequences.

In the military, once you commit to a certain time, you can’t quit no matter what. The consequences of quitting are grave. So you stay on and eventually your claim pride in service and happiness.

I think that the French idea of cohabitation is more in line with free-will and happiness.

Why do you need marriage to obligate you to one another? Isn’t love stronger than any piece of paper? Apparently not.

To me, happiness is what YOU want to do at any point in time. Sacrificing yourself for others or a greater cause is very lofty. In the end, you may reflect back and find happiness but you may actually suffer during.

[briansd1]

I agree with Dave.

In the institution of marriage there are too many ties that bind. It’s very hard to sever those ties without suffering dire consequences. So people will remain together just because of a lack of alternatives.

For example, if you don’t like your job, you can quit. But many stay with jobs they hate their whole lives. Why? Because quitting means no more income and other dire consequences.

In the military, once you commit to a certain time, you can’t quit no matter what. The consequences of quitting are grave. So you stay on and eventually your claim pride in service and happiness.

I think that the French idea of cohabitation is more in line with free-will and happiness.

Why do you need marriage to obligate you to one another? Isn’t love stronger than any piece of paper? Apparently not.

To me, happiness is what YOU want to do at any point in time. Sacrificing yourself for others or a greater cause is very lofty. In the end, you may reflect back and find happiness but you may actually suffer during.

[briansd1]

I agree with Dave.

In the institution of marriage there are too many ties that bind. It’s very hard to sever those ties without suffering dire consequences. So people will remain together just because of a lack of alternatives.

For example, if you don’t like your job, you can quit. But many stay with jobs they hate their whole lives. Why? Because quitting means no more income and other dire consequences.

In the military, once you commit to a certain time, you can’t quit no matter what. The consequences of quitting are grave. So you stay on and eventually your claim pride in service and happiness.

I think that the French idea of cohabitation is more in line with free-will and happiness.

Why do you need marriage to obligate you to one another? Isn’t love stronger than any piece of paper? Apparently not.

To me, happiness is what YOU want to do at any point in time. Sacrificing yourself for others or a greater cause is very lofty. In the end, you may reflect back and find happiness but you may actually suffer during.

[briansd1]

I agree with Dave.

In the institution of marriage there are too many ties that bind. It’s very hard to sever those ties without suffering dire consequences. So people will remain together just because of a lack of alternatives.

For example, if you don’t like your job, you can quit. But many stay with jobs they hate their whole lives. Why? Because quitting means no more income and other dire consequences.

In the military, once you commit to a certain time, you can’t quit no matter what. The consequences of quitting are grave. So you stay on and eventually your claim pride in service and happiness.

I think that the French idea of cohabitation is more in line with free-will and happiness.

Why do you need marriage to obligate you to one another? Isn’t love stronger than any piece of paper? Apparently not.

To me, happiness is what YOU want to do at any point in time. Sacrificing yourself for others or a greater cause is very lofty. In the end, you may reflect back and find happiness but you may actually suffer during.

[an]

[quote=CA renter]
BTW, did you notice how most of the couples spoke very highly of the couples’ retreats? Basically, that’s counseling, without the stigma. ;)[/quote]
I agree, counseling/therapy has a stigma and retreat does not. I guess in my eyes, retreat tend to have people who are proactively working on their marriage while therapy is where you go to when it’s already broken and need fixing. Kind of like physical therapy vs exercising. Both are basically the same, but one you do when you’re already broken while the other, you do to keep yourself from being broken or improve upon yourself.

[an]

[quote=CA renter]
BTW, did you notice how most of the couples spoke very highly of the couples’ retreats? Basically, that’s counseling, without the stigma. ;)[/quote]
I agree, counseling/therapy has a stigma and retreat does not. I guess in my eyes, retreat tend to have people who are proactively working on their marriage while therapy is where you go to when it’s already broken and need fixing. Kind of like physical therapy vs exercising. Both are basically the same, but one you do when you’re already broken while the other, you do to keep yourself from being broken or improve upon yourself.

[an]

[quote=CA renter]
BTW, did you notice how most of the couples spoke very highly of the couples’ retreats? Basically, that’s counseling, without the stigma. ;)[/quote]
I agree, counseling/therapy has a stigma and retreat does not. I guess in my eyes, retreat tend to have people who are proactively working on their marriage while therapy is where you go to when it’s already broken and need fixing. Kind of like physical therapy vs exercising. Both are basically the same, but one you do when you’re already broken while the other, you do to keep yourself from being broken or improve upon yourself.

[an]

[quote=CA renter]
BTW, did you notice how most of the couples spoke very highly of the couples’ retreats? Basically, that’s counseling, without the stigma. ;)[/quote]
I agree, counseling/therapy has a stigma and retreat does not. I guess in my eyes, retreat tend to have people who are proactively working on their marriage while therapy is where you go to when it’s already broken and need fixing. Kind of like physical therapy vs exercising. Both are basically the same, but one you do when you’re already broken while the other, you do to keep yourself from being broken or improve upon yourself.

[Author]

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