The middle class is doomed…

[livinincali]

[quote=CA renter]
You keep referring to people who are not “like you” as lazy. Has it ever occurred to you that they might be harder-working, and even smarter than you? Some of the hardest workers are often the poorest, and I can show you many, many people with Ph.D.’s (even with your much-loved STEM degrees) who don’t even make $100K after decades on the job as a successful and proven employee.
[/quote]

You don’t get wealth from working hard. You get wealth from working smart and some degree of luck. The innovators are the ones that figure out smarter way to do a task. Whether changing the process or using a machine to replace manual labor.

Business at it’s core is problem solving. Find a problem and create a efficient solution for it. Our education system should focus on problem solving, but often that takes a back seat to feel good topics. Not that feel good topics are bad, they just don’t do much to create economic growth.

[SK in CV]

[quote=livinincali]Our education system should focus on problem solving, but often that takes a back seat to feel good topics. Not that feel good topics are bad, they just don’t do much to create economic growth.[/quote]

You have kids? What feel good topics are they studying? Mine have been out of high school for 8-10 years now. I have no recollectiong of them ever studying a “feel good” topic. Not in college either. Have things really changed that much?

[livinincali]

[quote=SK in CV][quote=livinincali]Our education system should focus on problem solving, but often that takes a back seat to feel good topics. Not that feel good topics are bad, they just don’t do much to create economic growth.[/quote]

You have kids? What feel good topics are they studying? Mine have been out of high school for 8-10 years now. I have no recollectiong of them ever studying a “feel good” topic. Not in college either. Have things really changed that much?[/quote]

Maybe feel good topics isn’t the best choice of words. More like topics to make you a well rounded individual. Obviously one has to be able to effectively communicate through writing, but how exactly does reading and reporting on Shakespeare prepare you for the business world. Why isn’t a writing class focused on writing an executive report on the solution to a problem rather than what Shakespeare really meant in paragraph 2 on page 16, or even something that might be fun and somewhat practical like writing a story on the past weekend’s playoff games.

How do art classes prepare you for the business world. What do those classes do to advance economic activity. It’s not that they aren’t important or offer value. It’s just that, preferably you’d spend more time on problem solving activities.

[Coronita]

But to discourage everyone else from going to top rank schools or higher education, I’ll start posting more articles like this…which is what probably what more people want to hear, since it would be easier for people to do nothing….so they don’t have to bother their kid(s) with it…so my kid has more opportunity relatively speaking….

http://money.cnn.com/gallery/news/economy/2013/01/24/masters-degree-debt/index.html?source=cnn_bin

My master’s wasn’t worth it

MBAs: A dime a dozen?

I have an MBA in media management from Metropolitan College of New York and a master’s in organizational leadership from Mercy College. I am in debt to the tune of $120,000, and for me, it just wasn’t worth it.

After graduating, I applied for jobs in New York for at least a year. In interviews, I was either overqualified, or high risk.

I am high risk, so I’m told, because I have multiple degrees, which means it’s more likely that I would pursue other means of employment if I am offered a higher salary.

I’m 42 years old, and I’m competing with 25-year-olds who have MBAs from Harvard. There are so many young people with MBAs from exclusive schools, it’s very difficult for somebody like me to compete. Employers don’t expect middle aged people to be innovators.

[Coronita]

[quote=SK in CV][quote=livinincali]Our education system should focus on problem solving, but often that takes a back seat to feel good topics. Not that feel good topics are bad, they just don’t do much to create economic growth.[/quote]

You have kids? What feel good topics are they studying? Mine have been out of high school for 8-10 years now. I have no recollectiong of them ever studying a “feel good” topic. Not in college either. Have things really changed that much?[/quote]

Yes they have. More and more in schools, awards are given for “best effort” not end results. Something simple as martial arts classes for kids. One school my kid goes to gives the lower belts just if you pay to take the test… Dude, when I took martial arts, you actually had to work you butt of to pass a real belt test. I think we’ve been taking the “winning is not everything. It’s how you play the game…here’s a trophy anyway….” to the extremes now….It’s the same pattern as to “well, gee you didn’t achieve X, but well buy you Y on credit anyway….” mentality.

As such, we’ve dumbed down things considerably…Same goes with education with this no kids left behind crap…..We cultivate mediocracy for everyone at best. If you want someone to truely excel, you’re on your own. Well, works great if you have funds. Personally, it sucks for the parents that don’t have the financial resources at their disposal but otherwise have brilliant kids.

Same kinda crap that goes on right now…People love to tell how hard it is succeed at anything. This won’t work, that won’t work.. And then one someone else does it..Well ,shit that’s not fair. Judgement call XYZ on whether the person is overpaid,etc, and should/shouldn’t be taxed more, etc….

Personally, I think we’d be better off teaching more of our younger generation about how to be winners.

But then again if everyone else wants to quit and have a victim’s mentality and teach their kids to have a victim’s mentality and be self-destructive…so be it… Have a field day on it.

[no_such_reality]

[quote=The-Shoveler]
Really do you just think it would be like Mad Max or something?[/quote]

No, I think it’s going to look a lot more like Caracas now or Rio of 20 years ago.

As for STEM degrees, well, that’s going to be our biggest failing. First we don’t train enough, second, we’re shipping all the junior roles out.

It’s really hard to get to be one of the thinkers that knows how things work, if you haven’t really had a good chance at learning the ropes. Those ropes learning jobs even in STEM are getting rarer.

China is building their Hoover dams, their NASA programs, their Interstates. We’re spending billions trying to protect people that don’t give a rats as about us from a bunch of thugs and doling out pork.

[The-Shoveler]

[quote=no_such_reality][quote=The-Shoveler]
Really do you just think it would be like Mad Max or something?[/quote]

No, I think it’s going to look a lot more like Caracas now or Rio of 20 years ago.

As for STEM degrees, well, that’s going to be our biggest failing. First we don’t train enough, second, we’re shipping all the junior roles out.

It’s really hard to get to be one of the thinkers that knows how things work, if you haven’t really had a good chance at learning the ropes. Those ropes learning jobs even in STEM are getting rarer.[/quote]

Well maybe and flu makes good points as well, but you are still going to end up with the top 15% being what we would call middle class.
Me I think we will end up with something like what Israel/UK and most of the EU has.
Minimum wage a lot closer to a living wage (say $15 an hour) (call it welfare , call it subsidized call it what you want).
The rest mostly the same,
The Top 15% or so living good, 50% able to survive OK (based on higher minimum wage) .

[no_such_reality]

You might be right, but I think that 15% living well will really be 5% or less.

With 15%, it’s probably doable. As that 15% falls to 10% or 5% or less, at which point isn’t it.

The living waged in EU are pretty good, but let’s be honest, Spain, Italy, Greece, looking a lot like a house of cards, Germany looking pretty good. France? Looking a lot like the PIGS if you’re young or an immigrant, looking like Germany, if you’re employed and older.

[Coronita]

well then the solution is simple… Be part of that 5%…Then it’s not your problem.

[an]

[quote=CA renter]You keep referring to people who are not “like you” as lazy. Has it ever occurred to you that they might be harder-working, and even smarter than you? Some of the hardest workers are often the poorest, and I can show you many, many people with Ph.D.’s (even with your much-loved STEM degrees) who don’t even make $100K after decades on the job as a successful and proven employee.

BTW, you need to acknowledge the weakness of your STEM degree and start reading a few history/sociology/political science books. Those who are what you call “lazy” will not die, though they will adapt in a way that you will not like at all. They will kill those who they perceive to be impoverishing them and taking away their opportunities. It has always been that way. You cannot impoverish the majority of the population for the benefit of the few without some very negative effects, and God help you if you maintain the arrogant attitude that you are somehow better than they are, or “deserve” wealth and opportunity more than they do.[/quote]CAR, it’s called the figure of speech. I wasn’t saying me specifically. I mean people who adapt to the ever changing world will be just fine. While those who are stuck in the past, hoping things will return to the way they were will be left behind.

You’re right, when the wealth discrepancy becomes too great, then communism takes over. I’ve experienced it and know people who lost family members because of it. However, that’s also many years ago. Things have changed. The world is much more mobile today. If I get a whiff of that happening here, I’ll be on the next flight to somewhere else safer.

IIRC, you’re the one who constantly say people deserve X. I’m saying no one deserve anything. If you want it, you have to work hard to get it. You’re doing exactly just that, else, you wouldn’t have sold your house at the peak and buy your current house at/near the bottom. You have no idea what it’s like to be poor and have to work hard & smart & have a little luck on your side to make it. I have.

No one is impoverish anyone. I’m not advocating anyone impoverishing anyone else. Unlike you, I’m not arrogant enough to think I can change things. I can only state what I see and try to adapt myself to the ever changing world. The only constant in this world is change. If you don’t adapt, you’ll be left behind.

[Coronita]

[quote=no_such_reality][quote=The-Shoveler]
Really do you just think it would be like Mad Max or something?[/quote]

No, I think it’s going to look a lot more like Caracas now or Rio of 20 years ago.

As for STEM degrees, well, that’s going to be our biggest failing. First we don’t train enough, second, we’re shipping all the junior roles out.

It’s really hard to get to be one of the thinkers that knows how things work, if you haven’t really had a good chance at learning the ropes. Those ropes learning jobs even in STEM are getting rarer.

China is building their Hoover dams, their NASA programs, their Interstates. We’re spending billions trying to protect people that don’t give a rats as about us from a bunch of thugs and doling out pork.[/quote]

ding ding ding….

[SD Realtor]

I believe what is also killing off the middle class is the entitlement attitude that our society has taken on. I believe that the tipping point has been reached with regards to a fundamental cycle that will be hard to break. That is, a ruling political party will continue to promise the lower income strata welfare in exchange for votes. As this strata grows in population, the resources needed to support them will grow. Resources will slowly be peeled away from the middle class in order to support the growing strata who will then continue to vote in support of politicians who promise to feed the machine. This of course is and will continue to be done under the guise of redistribution of wealth from the rich to the poor but the middle class bears the brunt of the transfer. It is done not only through taxation but also for programs such as access to education and other programs that the middle class will are and will be deemed “to wealthy” to take advantage of…. see college education for instance.

[SK in CV]

[quote=SD Realtor]I believe what is also killing off the middle class is the entitlement attitude that our society has taken on. I believe that the tipping point has been reached with regards to a fundamental cycle that will be hard to break. That is, a ruling political party will continue to promise the lower income strata welfare in exchange for votes. As this strata grows in population, the resources needed to support them will grow. Resources will slowly be peeled away from the middle class in order to support the growing strata who will then continue to vote in support of politicians who promise to feed the machine. This of course is and will continue to be done under the guise of redistribution of wealth from the rich to the poor but the middle class bears the brunt of the transfer. It is done not only through taxation but also for programs such as access to education and other programs that the middle class will are and will be deemed “to wealthy” to take advantage of…. see college education for instance.[/quote]

Why is this true now, when it wasn’t true 8 years ago? Have there been significant expansion in eligibility and benefits in welfare programs since then? I think in actuality, most benefits have been cut, not increased.

[Coronita]

[quote=SD Realtor]I believe what is also killing off the middle class is the entitlement attitude that our society has taken on. I believe that the tipping point has been reached with regards to a fundamental cycle that will be hard to break. That is, a ruling political party will continue to promise the lower income strata welfare in exchange for votes. As this strata grows in population, the resources needed to support them will grow. Resources will slowly be peeled away from the middle class in order to support the growing strata who will then continue to vote in support of politicians who promise to feed the machine. This of course is and will continue to be done under the guise of redistribution of wealth from the rich to the poor but the middle class bears the brunt of the transfer. It is done not only through taxation but also for programs such as access to education and other programs that the middle class will are and will be deemed “to wealthy” to take advantage of…. see college education for instance.[/quote]

ding ding ding…And MSM publishing articles about how education isn’t needed, what failure it is, how unaffordable it is…Plays right into the hands of people not really wanting to put effort into anyway….

Meanwhile or foreign constitutions will seize every opportunity we piss away…

Race to mediocracy.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=CA renter] . . . BTW, you need to acknowledge the weakness of your STEM degree and start reading a few history/sociology/political science books . . .[/quote]

Actually, I’ve known MANY successful people who majored in these subjects (AND “public administration”) and went on to be VERY highly paid lawyers, professors and bureaucrats.

Believe it or not, the truth is, lawyers are held to the highest levels of trust and confidence (by EVERYone) and they essentially rule the western world. And “business” makes the world go ’round.

Those three subjects are s-o-o-o important, along with physical and cultural anthropology. I’ll stop short of adding psychology to the list because PSY 101 (required for most college degrees) is pretty dry and boring and is a prereq to all other PSY classes (which most students don’t take).

If one doesn’t have even a working background of the three subjects mentioned by CAR, I have found that it is difficult for them to understand how the world works. You can claim I’m “living in the past” all you want but history IS the reason why things are as they are. You can’t take it away.

On this forum, I have seem time and time again the same posters chagrined and deeply disappointed about issues which are NOT new and for which they can do nothing about (ex. “public pensions”). By their repeated posts, they are implying that they think the world should be different (I’ve done the same thing with the unfairness of the SS laws) . . . . but it isn’t and it isn’t going to change for them.

The ONLY ways for joe6p Pigg to attempt to “make a difference” are to vote in each and every election, assist your favorite candidate(s) in their campaign efforts, personally lobby the CA Legislature or Congress thru your representatives on issues you feel strongly about, or better yet, run for public office yourself! It will surely be an eye-opener, whether you become elected … or not. And lastly, ACCEPT REALITY as it is.

In addition, macro and micro economics were the only subjects I needed to complete my “Associate Degree” and I have been acutely feeling the pain in recent years from never taking them.

It’s too late now to bother pursuing an AS because I have a graduate-level paralegal certificate, which trumps an AS, manyfold. The degree wouldn’t do me any good at this late date. My kids have given me their old college textbooks and I am slowly picking my way thru them on my own. I can confidently write for the CA Supreme Court but I feel extremely handicapped in the financial arena (investments) and am actively looking for good help. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses but STEM degrees aren’t for everyone and they are NOT the be-all, end-all.

I know the UC (nearly ALL campuses) currently favor the foreign (primarily Asian) student who will pursue a STEM major and whose parents will gladly pay 277% of CA resident fees over a CA resident applicant of any stripe. Even though I feel the Regents have a legal, ethical and moral “duty” to educate qualified “B student” CA residents (as they have in the past) whose parents have undoubtedly paid property taxes for many years (sometimes on multiple properties) which indirectly supported the UC system, I accept reality that my “B-student” kids couldn’t and won’t be able to get accepted there (except into the two campuses [UCM/UCR] they aren’t interested in attending).

Due to recent severe impaction on several major CSU campuses, I am encouraging my youngest to attend a liberal arts college out of state (they want to major in accounting) where they would be eligible for nearly a full-ride scholarship as a B student. They still have their heart set on UCSC and one CSU campus and I am not averse to applying for them. But I want to apply for at least ONE out of the three out-of-state school where they will be eligible for a “free ride.”

I think the vastly different setting, combined with small classes, accessible academic advisors, and teachers with “connections” (several “UC” defectors and retirees) will help them see the world in a brand new way.

There’s nothing wrong with having a strong liberal arts background with a major in a business field. Nothing at all.

[Author]

Posts