Talked to Thornberg

[cyphire]

I just read the article what_a_disasta… I think you misread it. Scientists are much less religious. Doctor’s aren’t. You wrote “Thanks for the link to that study jg. That’s fascinating, I always assumed that scientists would be far less religious that the greater population.”

Also – I wonder if they are dogmatic (like jg), or just believe in god (without having an agenda from specific interpretation of the bible).

Some points: Similar people to many that attend religious systems do in fact become physicians.

“We did not think physicians were nearly this religious,” said study author Farr Curlin, Instructor in Medicine and a member of the MacLean Center for Clinical Medical Ethics at the University. “We suspect that people who combine an aptitude for science with an interest in religion and an affinity for public service are particularly attracted to medicine. The responsibility to care for those who are suffering and the rewards of helping those in need resonate throughout most religious traditions.”

Only 60% of physicians are Protestant or Catholic:

“Although physicians are nearly as religious as the general population, their specific beliefs often differ from those of their patients. While more than 80 percent of patients describe themselves as Protestant or Catholic, only 60 percent of physicians come from either group.”

Physicians are 26 times more likely to be Hindu than the overall U.S. population (5.3 percent of doctors vs. 0.2 percent of nonphysicians). Doctors are seven times more likely to be Jewish (14.1 percent vs. 1.9 percent), six times more likely to be Buddhist (1.2 percent vs. 0.2 percent) and five times more likely to be Muslim (2.7 percent vs. 0.5 percent).

They go to church, but they don’t let their beliefs interfere with science or their jobs:

Although doctors are more likely than the general population to attend religious services, they are less willing to “apply their religious beliefs to other areas of life,” the researchers found. Sixty-one percent of doctors say they “try to make sense” of a difficult situation and “decide what to do without relying on God,” while only 29 percent of the general population say the same.

“We have paid a good deal of attention to the religious beliefs of patients and how their faith influences medical decisions,” Curlin said, “but until now, no one has looked in the same way at physicians, the other half of every doctor-patient relationship. These findings lead us to further wonder how doctors’ faiths shape their clinical encounters.”

Inquiries into the religious beliefs, or the lack of them, among U.S. scientists date back to a landmark 1916 survey by psychologist James Leuba that documented widespread disbelief. Leuba found that only 40 percent of scientists believed in a personal God, 15 percent were uncertain and 45 percent disbelieved.

In the 1910’s only 39% of scientists believed in god. Same now. Of top scientists (which i stated previously) only 7%. And of these many are mathematicians (not actually in life sciences). Biologists don’t!

Surveys published in Nature in 1997 and 1998 showed little change since 1916, with only 39 percent of all scientists declaring a personal belief in God. Belief among “leading” scientists, however—defined in this case as members of the National Academy of Sciences—was far lower: only 7 percent in 1998. Curiously, among scientists, mathematicians were the most likely to believe in God and biologists the least likely.

Although physicians have extensive training in biology, the study by Curlin and colleagues paints a very different picture, showing high levels of belief.

The next step, said Curlin, who describes himself as an “orthodox Christian in the Protestant tradition,” is to begin to look at how doctors’ religious (or secular) beliefs and values might influence the way they care for patients.

The Greenwall Foundation and the Robert Wood Johnson Clinical Scholars Program funded the study. Additional authors include John Lantos, Professor in Pediatrics and Medicine; Chad Roach, S.B.; Sarah Sellergren, A.M.; and Marshall Chin, Associate Professor in Medicine.

Note: the author is an orthodox Christian. I am somewhat skeptical if some responders were afraid to answer properly. Only to the extent that no one who believes would say the opposite, but many just want to get along.

[cyphire]

I just read the article what_a_disasta… I think you misread it. Scientists are much less religious. Doctor’s aren’t. You wrote “Thanks for the link to that study jg. That’s fascinating, I always assumed that scientists would be far less religious that the greater population.”

Also – I wonder if they are dogmatic (like jg), or just believe in god (without having an agenda from specific interpretation of the bible).

Some points: Similar people to many that attend religious systems do in fact become physicians.

“We did not think physicians were nearly this religious,” said study author Farr Curlin, Instructor in Medicine and a member of the MacLean Center for Clinical Medical Ethics at the University. “We suspect that people who combine an aptitude for science with an interest in religion and an affinity for public service are particularly attracted to medicine. The responsibility to care for those who are suffering and the rewards of helping those in need resonate throughout most religious traditions.”

Only 60% of physicians are Protestant or Catholic:

“Although physicians are nearly as religious as the general population, their specific beliefs often differ from those of their patients. While more than 80 percent of patients describe themselves as Protestant or Catholic, only 60 percent of physicians come from either group.”

Physicians are 26 times more likely to be Hindu than the overall U.S. population (5.3 percent of doctors vs. 0.2 percent of nonphysicians). Doctors are seven times more likely to be Jewish (14.1 percent vs. 1.9 percent), six times more likely to be Buddhist (1.2 percent vs. 0.2 percent) and five times more likely to be Muslim (2.7 percent vs. 0.5 percent).

They go to church, but they don’t let their beliefs interfere with science or their jobs:

Although doctors are more likely than the general population to attend religious services, they are less willing to “apply their religious beliefs to other areas of life,” the researchers found. Sixty-one percent of doctors say they “try to make sense” of a difficult situation and “decide what to do without relying on God,” while only 29 percent of the general population say the same.

“We have paid a good deal of attention to the religious beliefs of patients and how their faith influences medical decisions,” Curlin said, “but until now, no one has looked in the same way at physicians, the other half of every doctor-patient relationship. These findings lead us to further wonder how doctors’ faiths shape their clinical encounters.”

Inquiries into the religious beliefs, or the lack of them, among U.S. scientists date back to a landmark 1916 survey by psychologist James Leuba that documented widespread disbelief. Leuba found that only 40 percent of scientists believed in a personal God, 15 percent were uncertain and 45 percent disbelieved.

In the 1910’s only 39% of scientists believed in god. Same now. Of top scientists (which i stated previously) only 7%. And of these many are mathematicians (not actually in life sciences). Biologists don’t!

Surveys published in Nature in 1997 and 1998 showed little change since 1916, with only 39 percent of all scientists declaring a personal belief in God. Belief among “leading” scientists, however—defined in this case as members of the National Academy of Sciences—was far lower: only 7 percent in 1998. Curiously, among scientists, mathematicians were the most likely to believe in God and biologists the least likely.

Although physicians have extensive training in biology, the study by Curlin and colleagues paints a very different picture, showing high levels of belief.

The next step, said Curlin, who describes himself as an “orthodox Christian in the Protestant tradition,” is to begin to look at how doctors’ religious (or secular) beliefs and values might influence the way they care for patients.

The Greenwall Foundation and the Robert Wood Johnson Clinical Scholars Program funded the study. Additional authors include John Lantos, Professor in Pediatrics and Medicine; Chad Roach, S.B.; Sarah Sellergren, A.M.; and Marshall Chin, Associate Professor in Medicine.

Note: the author is an orthodox Christian. I am somewhat skeptical if some responders were afraid to answer properly. Only to the extent that no one who believes would say the opposite, but many just want to get along.

[Anonymous]

cyphire, I work with physicians. They are dogmatic. Know it all. Have supreme self-confidence.

Glad that they are on my side.

[Anonymous]

cyphire, I work with physicians. They are dogmatic. Know it all. Have supreme self-confidence.

Glad that they are on my side.

[cyphire]

You wish!… and keep dreaming! (oh… and don’t be hypocritical… invalidate your medical insurance card and get a subscription to “Applying leeches to yourself – a non-scientific self help book”.

[cyphire]

You wish!… and keep dreaming! (oh… and don’t be hypocritical… invalidate your medical insurance card and get a subscription to “Applying leeches to yourself – a non-scientific self help book”.

[what_a_disasta]

Cheers for the clarification cyphire. I was wondering how many of these doctors extended their belief in ‘a god’ to belief in the proactive & jealous God of modern monotheistic religions. It’s one thing to give a name to the unknown/unknowable mysteries of the universe, but I find it hard to imagine that so many well educataed people believe in the rest of the fairy tales associated with religion.

[what_a_disasta]

Cheers for the clarification cyphire. I was wondering how many of these doctors extended their belief in ‘a god’ to belief in the proactive & jealous God of modern monotheistic religions. It’s one thing to give a name to the unknown/unknowable mysteries of the universe, but I find it hard to imagine that so many well educataed people believe in the rest of the fairy tales associated with religion.

[cyphire]

Thanks what_a_disasta I also don’t have the answers to how it all started… I think it’s a bit presumptuous for a mere human to figure it out.

But if someone has a answer – it better have some proof not wild flights of fantasy, each contradicting the other.

It’s funny how many religions there are, and each has it’s own dogma and rules. They each contradict each other and their members have spent centuries killing each other. Yet each is smug in it’s moral superiority and take it’s tomes as the ‘Truth’.

[cyphire]

Thanks what_a_disasta I also don’t have the answers to how it all started… I think it’s a bit presumptuous for a mere human to figure it out.

But if someone has a answer – it better have some proof not wild flights of fantasy, each contradicting the other.

It’s funny how many religions there are, and each has it’s own dogma and rules. They each contradict each other and their members have spent centuries killing each other. Yet each is smug in it’s moral superiority and take it’s tomes as the ‘Truth’.

[Anonymous]

cyphire, I’m going to go out on a limb. You did not graduate from college, I take it?

You use ‘its’ and ‘it’s’ interchangeably, incorrectly, and get all lathered up quickly.

Just a hunch.

[Anonymous]

cyphire, I’m going to go out on a limb. You did not graduate from college, I take it?

You use ‘its’ and ‘it’s’ interchangeably, incorrectly, and get all lathered up quickly.

Just a hunch.

[NotCranky]

JG,
Beyond the first two years of college most people concentrate very heavily on their chosen specialty. They write enough papers to get in the habit of punctuating slightly better than the average 12th grader. However,in many cases this long dedication to a specialty, followed up by an arduous career and obsession with getting money, costs the person dearly in terms of personal developement in a more holistic sense.

The strategies you use to make yourself stand above, JG are very typical of an insecure person. It is silly and confirms that you are losing ground. What does picking all these rediculous fights say for you? I thought you were looking for character developement opportunities at first. Now I am just starting to think you are neurotic.

It is very cowardly of you to pick fights and then say that everybody is over sensitive or too quick to anger or “LIBS” or “anti-American”.Anger is appropriate with regard to the stances you take and support. A good “american” revolution is appropriate.Drop that “anti american” club that you are shamelessly beating everybody with. You obviously think that “american” is anything that suits your own prejudices.What an ego. You could not be less “American”. What of the idealistic but logical founders of this nation who wanted checks and balances against our becoming a bloated oppressive empire overun by religious fanatics. You have become enamored with demagoguery and your self righteous attitude in place of higher “American” ideals.This country has gone so down hill in the last 50 years and you think everything is great as long as the right kind of conservative is in office? Unbelievable.

Here is a question for you. Is unbrideled capitalism,imperialism,nationalism and all the destruction that goes with them Christian? Those appear to me to be your most coveted aspects of our civilization. Well, you know which stem cells are O.K. with God so that’s all that really matters.You just really look like small person JG and a small christian, regardless of how educated you are academically.You need the nation, the chauvinistic empire,an anthropomorphic God and his son,the catholic church, and all the money and credentials you can get to prop you up and that is why you can’t think.
Best wishes

[NotCranky]

JG,
Beyond the first two years of college most people concentrate very heavily on their chosen specialty. They write enough papers to get in the habit of punctuating slightly better than the average 12th grader. However,in many cases this long dedication to a specialty, followed up by an arduous career and obsession with getting money, costs the person dearly in terms of personal developement in a more holistic sense.

The strategies you use to make yourself stand above, JG are very typical of an insecure person. It is silly and confirms that you are losing ground. What does picking all these rediculous fights say for you? I thought you were looking for character developement opportunities at first. Now I am just starting to think you are neurotic.

It is very cowardly of you to pick fights and then say that everybody is over sensitive or too quick to anger or “LIBS” or “anti-American”.Anger is appropriate with regard to the stances you take and support. A good “american” revolution is appropriate.Drop that “anti american” club that you are shamelessly beating everybody with. You obviously think that “american” is anything that suits your own prejudices.What an ego. You could not be less “American”. What of the idealistic but logical founders of this nation who wanted checks and balances against our becoming a bloated oppressive empire overun by religious fanatics. You have become enamored with demagoguery and your self righteous attitude in place of higher “American” ideals.This country has gone so down hill in the last 50 years and you think everything is great as long as the right kind of conservative is in office? Unbelievable.

Here is a question for you. Is unbrideled capitalism,imperialism,nationalism and all the destruction that goes with them Christian? Those appear to me to be your most coveted aspects of our civilization. Well, you know which stem cells are O.K. with God so that’s all that really matters.You just really look like small person JG and a small christian, regardless of how educated you are academically.You need the nation, the chauvinistic empire,an anthropomorphic God and his son,the catholic church, and all the money and credentials you can get to prop you up and that is why you can’t think.
Best wishes

[cyphire]

Dear Rustico,

Thank you.

What an awesome response. I’ll bet you were one of those kids that stuck up for the kid being picked on at school!

Hey jg… We don’t need to fight. I do have a sufficiently large enough ego where you can’t hurt me. That being said, I’m not sure that you really can judge someones intelligence from either their grammar or their punctuation!

I wonder – do you belittle the people that work for you and/or your family? Try to be nice, it builds character.

While I do not express myself as eloquently as Rustico, please let me add to his response. Growing up (and having no religion or religious beliefs, one of my best friends was a very, very devout Christian. His parents and family were about the finest people I’ve ever known. They would bring in strangers to share their food, they lived a simple life and used all their extra money to help people. They never tried to proselytise over me, they accepted me for who I was. Everyone was welcome in their hearts and their lives.

They truly lived a simple blessed life. You seem to embody all the greed, corruption, narrow mindedness, and judgment which is in exact opposition to the being your beliefs are founded from.

I’m pretty sure that if Jesus was here now, he wouldn’t be proud of your beliefs, your actions, or your political/cultural values. Just my opinion.

[Author]

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