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FlyerInHi.
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January 14, 2016 at 2:41 PM #793261January 14, 2016 at 3:42 PM #793262
flyer
Participant[quote=no_such_reality][quote=FlyerInHi]
I wonder why there are so many angry people. What exactly are they upset about?
In the aggregate, things are pretty good. I read the economist and we seem to be managing our affairs pretty well compared to be rest of the world.[/quote]
For 80% of our population their economic situation is getting more precarious, not better. Couple that with the chronic noise stream of rhetoric and their BS meter going off every time a politician opens their mouth and the anger a fascination with no filter Trump is pretty clear, IMHO.[/quote]
I agree. “Political mischief,” as one news commentator put it, aside, the stats clearly show that much of the population have serious financial problems, and I think, justifiably, that reality is what is fueling their fears.
January 14, 2016 at 4:19 PM #793263FlyerInHi
Guest[quote=flyer] the stats clearly show that much of the population have serious financial problems, and I think, justifiably, that reality is what is fueling their fears.[/quote]
Compared to what period in history? Seems to me like we are better off than ever. Maybe not as well off as in the past, in proportion to the rest of the world. But we are better off for sure. (For example, in the past, we didn’t have to compete with Chinese buyers paying cash. But should it matter if we are better off than our parents and grand parents?)
Or maybe compared to what commentators say we should have. So much financial information out there. So perhaps we have too much information and we cast too wide a net when assessing our well being in relation to others.
January 14, 2016 at 11:05 PM #793264ParticipantCan’t speak to the historical side of this question, and, perhaps more are better off in some ways, but when it comes to long-term financial survival going forward (which is essential, whether we want to admit it or not) that aspect does seem questionable for many Americans, as this excerpt from an article on retirement reveals:
“More than 38 million working-age households (45 percent) do not own any retirement account assets, whether in an employer-sponsored 401(k) type plan or an IRA.
The average working household has virtually no retirement savings. When all households are included— not just households with retirement accounts—the median retirement account balance is $3,000 for all working-age households and $12,000 for near-retirement households. Two-thirds of working households age 55-64 with at least one earner have retirement savings less than one times their annual income, which is far below what they will need to maintain their standard of living in retirement.
The collective retirement savings gap among working households age 25-64 ranges from $6.8 to $14 trillion, depending on the financial measure. A large majority of households fall short of conservative retirement savings targets for their age and income based on working until age 67. Based on retirement account assets, 92 percent of working households do not meet targets. 84 percent fall short based on total financial assets, and 65 percent fall short based on net worth.”
and this:
http://www.businessinsider.com/inequality-in-the-us-is-much-more-extreme-than-you-think-2015-6
Perhaps the realization of these facts is what is fueling fear and anger among so many in our country.
January 15, 2016 at 4:20 AM #793265scaredyclassic
ParticipantIt is always odd to me how broke people seemed to vote against their current financial interests, seemingly aligned with billionaires when they are themselves hundredaires. My dad said it was cause they all expected to be rich soon.
I think everyone just woke up and realized they have been a bunch of fools. U mad bro?
January 15, 2016 at 7:09 AM #793266NotCranky
ParticipantFriends working in public places taking active shooter drill training. That’s kind of gloomy.
Except for the 50 year old semi skilled that nobody wants who are upping the suicide rates in certain gender/ age groups I guess pigg aged generation aren’t too worried about work.
Friends who hire telling me about the massive number of over qualified people they are getting applications from for a jobs of not too much pay and little perks.
I am pretty out of touch with what people need but I meet a lot of nice young people who might have some kind or job but aren’t launching exactly and would have launched a heck of a lot easier in my times ( last of the Boomers). I don’t think it only has to do with not being willing to play race to the bottom at some not California state. It sucks for them. And all the examples of silver spoon kids from RSF won’t change that a bit.
On the other hand I know people who didn’t pay their mortgage or property taxes for six years before they got the boot. Oh, six years huh? That’s nice. Will this mess ever end? I don’t begrudge them , they still barely squeaked by, getting hit hard on employment during the recession just when starting a family. it’s just on some level that kind of result in a bank/ client relationship gross. And the is apparently plenty to come still!
Still not happy about our war mongering ways.
North Korea may be bad but do you have to dedicate my kids school social studies time to show cold war style propaganda films against that country with all that is going on in the world?
January 15, 2016 at 9:49 AM #793269ParticipantJanuary 15, 2016 at 10:03 AM #793270Anonymous
GuestFlyer’s doom-and-gloom financial stats are focused on retirement.
I don’t question the data, but I draw a different conclusion. The economy is not “worse” than in the past, even for the working class. The difference is that the definition of retirement has changed dramatically because of changes in lifespan. Retirement used to span a decade or so if one was lucky. But we now have generations that expect to live one-third of their lives in retirement.
The problem is simply that we are living longer but expect to work the same number of years. It’s doable, with proper planning and discipline.
Lifespans have increased and the financial discipline of the general public has not.
The solution is easy for any individual: live within your means, plan and save adequately for retirement during working years. Most of the Piggs do just that, most of the general population does not.
But there is no “fair” way to solve the problem for everyone. I believe it is possible for anyone to save adequately for retirement, but many simply do not. There is a huge population that is on a trajectory for hard times because of their own choices.
Flyer’s stats show that in a few years we are going to see increasing poverty for the elderly. Good thing most it will not be plainly visible, because it will be difficult to watch.
January 15, 2016 at 11:28 AM #793272GuestVery interesting observation about retirement. I think that obesity and health problems also contribute to angst. People live longer, but they also live longer with chronic health conditions. I have a friend who recently retired at 63. He’s ok financially but he suffers from loneliness (who wants to make friends with a complainer?) and a number of medical problems (which I think could be solved by losing 100 lbs, but I can’t suggest that).
I also think anger is more psychological than real (because anger comes from within). Contentment over time seems to be based in the share of the pie rather the size of the slice. Anger seems most concentrated among low-educated White men. They are not living any worse than in the past but their status has eroded as our national attention has turned to other issues. Immigration used to bring new entrants who had to work their way up over a couple genererations. Now, new immigrants can leapfrog over the natives in a few years.
But ever the working class live better than they used to. The pickup trucks they drive are pretty luxurious compared the old ones of the 1970s.
If anger is psychologically self-induced, it can also be self-healed if one takes time to self reflect.
January 15, 2016 at 11:31 AM #793273bearishgurl
Participant[quote=flyer]Can’t speak to the historical side of this question, and, perhaps more are better off in some ways, but when it comes to long-term financial survival going forward (which is essential, whether we want to admit it or not) that aspect does seem questionable for many Americans, as this excerpt from an article on retirement reveals:
“More than 38 million working-age households (45 percent) do not own any retirement account assets, whether in an employer-sponsored 401(k) type plan or an IRA.
The average working household has virtually no retirement savings. When all households are included— not just households with retirement accounts—the median retirement account balance is $3,000 for all working-age households and $12,000 for near-retirement households. Two-thirds of working households age 55-64 with at least one earner have retirement savings less than one times their annual income, which is far below what they will need to maintain their standard of living in retirement.
The collective retirement savings gap among working households age 25-64 ranges from $6.8 to $14 trillion, depending on the financial measure. A large majority of households fall short of conservative retirement savings targets for their age and income based on working until age 67. Based on retirement account assets, 92 percent of working households do not meet targets. 84 percent fall short based on total financial assets, and 65 percent fall short based on net worth.”
and this:
http://www.businessinsider.com/inequality-in-the-us-is-much-more-extreme-than-you-think-2015-6
Perhaps the realization of these facts is what is fueling fear and anger among so many in our country.[/quote]
flyer, you didn’t list the source of your first quoted material and I looked at the “gloom and doom” video from the Business Insider link you provided.
I think there has always been wealth inequality in the US which is/was largely caused from being born into a particular family …. or not. Perhaps yes, it is more pronounced now, because those people who were born with a “silver spoon,” so to speak, have had more to invest throughout their lifetimes, especially during eras where investing in (safer) passive investments was more lucrative. They have also had more capital with which to invest in the stock market and ride its ups and downs without feeling any pain (due to not needing any funds from their investments while the market was down).
That said, all these retirement “gloom and doomers” are not taking into account that a large portion of 60+ year-old Joe and Jane 6ps all over the nation have lifetime monthly income from defined benefit plans. The average monthly pension is likely +/- $2K month. A large portion of these pensioners are/were also eligible for full SS benefits (OASDI) at the age of 65 or 66. This doesn’t even take into account that their spouses (Jane 6p?) have ALSO earned SS benefits in their own right (esp the boomer-generation women) and/or a defined benefit pension of their own.
If a current retiree’s primary residence and vehicle(s) are paid off and they have one or more defined benefit pensions coming into the household every month, there really is no “dire situation” here as your doom-and-gloomer talking heads would have us believe. Especially if they are longtime Cali residents with ultra-low property-tax bill(s).
flyer, you have to admit here that if you yourself didn’t have a defined benefit pension for life coming in and Prop 13 protection on assessments for your CA properties, your own financial situation today might look very different. You might be going thru your assets in order to live, while constantly trying to scare up one side-gig after another. Or you would have chosen not to retire when you did.
Honestly, it doesn’t really matter how many hundreds of thousands (or millions, as the case may be) Joe and/or Suzy (boomer and beyond) 6p have in their “nest egg.” They may not be able to be world travelers but they will survive just fine and their estates will not be indebted, as long as they manage to stay off Medicaid/Medi-Cal and keep themselves well-insured with Medigap policies, Medicare Advantage Plans or Tricare for Life.
As far as Gen X and Y (who are likely still working or looking for work), these groups may not have had as much opportunity to vest themselves into defined benefit plans and most of the plans they were offered were likely not as robust as those of their predecessors but their wages are MUCH higher, on average than their predecessors. That said, there is far more at play here which could explain why they aren’t saving as much as they should for their retirement. The vast majority of members of these groups (ESP Gen Y) are very heavily into “instant gratification” and won’t settle for the more mundane type of lives their parents had (moving up in every facet of life, one step at a time). They want everything (new possessions) and want to experience everything (foreign travel, etc) NOW! This is not a generalization … it is a fact. Perhaps this is mainly the group those doom and gloom MSM media articles you keep posting here are referring to.
I have lived in areas primarily populated by the over-55 set for over 25 years and I just don’t see where the problem is. Please enlighten me as to what I’m missing here.
January 15, 2016 at 11:36 AM #793274GuestBG, foreign travel is cheaper than skiing at Lake Tahoe.
I recommended you buy a 1 week tour to China with a friend (cheaper with double occupancy). You can then extend and travel independently however long you want for no extra cost.
January 15, 2016 at 11:42 AM #793276ParticipantMy corner of SD County is but a microcosm of the entire nation. I don’t see any poverty among boomers and beyond in the “flyover country” cities and towns I frequent either. I see folks who own their own residence outright (very often upscale homes they built themselves), often owning multiple rental properties, leased land for agricultural uses, leased land for oil extraction, multiple vehicles, including farm equipment, etc.
It doesn’t matter WHAT these folks did for a living during their “working years.” I can tell you that most of them never set foot inside a college (except to see their kids check in or graduate).
They have what they have because of the value systems they were raised with (they were able to live with less while they raised their families and built their “empire”).
The worker-bee groups today never adopted that value system. Hence, they are mortgaging their futures to satisfy their current wants.
January 15, 2016 at 11:45 AM #793277Guest[quote=bearishgurl]My corner of SD County is but a microcosm of the entire nation. I don’t see any poverty among boomers and beyond in the “flyover country” cities and towns I frequent either. I see folks who own their own residence outright (very often upscale homes they built themselves), often owning multiple rental properties, leased land for agricultural uses, leased land for oil extraction, multiple vehicles, including farm equipment, etc.
It doesn’t matter WHAT these folks did for a living during their “working years.” I can tell you that most of them never set foot inside a college (except to see their kids check in or graduate).
They have what they have because of the value systems they were raised with (they were able to live with less while they raised their families and built their “empire”).
The worker-bee groups today never adopted that value system. Hence, they are mortgaging their futures to satisfy their current wants.[/quote]
Do you see any anger that reflects what is reported by the press?
January 15, 2016 at 11:48 AM #793278Participant[quote=FlyerInHi]BG, foreign travel is cheaper than skiing at Lake Tahoe.
I recommended you buy a 1 week tour to China with a friend (cheaper with double occupancy). You can then extend and travel independently however long you want for no extra cost.[/quote]
SLT (Heavenly) is now much cheaper than it used to be (both lodging and lift tix). I would say about 35% cheaper. I know there isn’t more lodging there on the CA side (due to bldg moratoriums enacted long ago) and the NV side (Stateline, NV) has little to no room available to build more lodging. But I think this area is trying mightily to be more competitive, due to the nature of their unreliable weather.
It’s a banner season this year and I wish I could go skiing. I have absolutely no interest in visiting China (with multiple packs of disposable face masks from Home Depot in my carry-on bag) :=0
No, thanks.
January 15, 2016 at 11:53 AM #793279Participant[quote=FlyerInHi][quote=bearishgurl]My corner of SD County is but a microcosm of the entire nation. I don’t see any poverty among boomers and beyond in the “flyover country” cities and towns I frequent either. I see folks who own their own residence outright (very often upscale homes they built themselves), often owning multiple rental properties, leased land for agricultural uses, leased land for oil extraction, multiple vehicles, including farm equipment, etc.
It doesn’t matter WHAT these folks did for a living during their “working years.” I can tell you that most of them never set foot inside a college (except to see their kids check in or graduate).
They have what they have because of the value systems they were raised with (they were able to live with less while they raised their families and built their “empire”).
The worker-bee groups today never adopted that value system. Hence, they are mortgaging their futures to satisfy their current wants.[/quote]
Do you see any anger that reflects what is reported by the press?[/quote]
I too have a local friend who constantly complains to me about “wealth inequality” in the US and stating we should all be wary of “Sharia law” taking over the US. I told them they should not be spending their precious off-hours watching Fox News talking heads on the big screen spout their uncontrollable anger.
Honestly, I think some of these journalists are unwittingly subjecting themselves to having a stroke before the age of 40, even!
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