Reasons I cannot vote for Trump

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=flu]

AN you know me pretty well. And you know that I would never be Ok with higher taxes and bigger government.

BUT, at this point, I’m more concerned with a longer term damage Trump does to this country than a shorter term damage that Hillary might do to my taxes.

He represents everything wrong about this country, every sorry excuse people make for themselves on why they can’t get ahead. He’s an enabler for people who hate just for the sake of hating, latino, muslims, blacks, and later indians, asians, jews. Maybe not all Trump supporters are like that, but there’s enough of them to make it a problem. And enough of them that I believe if he wins, it could be a problem for not me, but my kids and your kids, especially if they don’t plan on growing up in CA.

I can’t for the life of me explain to my kid how a Trump “President” behaves and acts the way he does as acceptable behavior. Now extrapolate his demeanor and his behavior to the parents and family that think what he is doing is nothing wrong, and pretty soon you have a bunch of little punks that also will end up saying shit to your kid like “Trump is going to send you colored people home”. Shit that was a really bad memory when I was growing up and people like us really were a minority in CA. People always say, things can’t get “that bad” in California. And that’s true. But why must I or my kid be forced to stay in California in order to feel safe or protected? That’s bullshit. My kid has so much more to lose. Neither I or my kid has the luxury to afford a Trump fvckup and his extreme followers in charge. Neither my kid or I are white. We don’t have the privilege of “experimenting” with Trump screwing around with his talk of a theoretical border wall built to keep latinos, or profiling muslims because all of them are terrorists, or his tough talk against chinese who are all hackers and spies and stealing “our jobs”, and on and on and on. These are luxuries a (for a lack of the better word) white family and white kids have, because no matter what Trump does, or how outrageous he casts his “blame net” on, it is very unlikely to ever impact a “white family”. Sure, it’s very easy for some of his supporters to say “Trump is being honest, and I’m so glad he’s not PC”. Again, they are white, and no matter what he does, yes they are correct, their life won’t change significantly no matter what he does. You, me, your kid, my kid, we’re not so lucky. Maybe we aren’t going be a target first, maybe we won’t ever be a target. You want to take a chance? I don’t. While as I don’t give a flying fvck about me, I do care a lot about my kid and the world that my kid will have to grow up in.

No, I’m not a big fan of bigger government, more spending, and a higher tax bill. And had the GOP presidential candidates stuck to those issues, and left off all the other social issues/racial issues/ women’s rights issue aside, they would have been a much more appealing and aligned to what would be good for me. But of course, Trump didn’t do that, and his most extreme right base didn’t want to back any of the moderate candidates that tried to do that. So what choice do I have? Johnson? who has over the past month demonstrate he is out of touch with the world?

If that means that my tax rate goes up for the next 4 years, fine. Hopefully, this won’t be a landslide election, hopefully the GOP maintains control in at least one branch of Congress to act as a counter balance. I’ll back the local republicans that didn’t endorse Trump,. In CA, republicans here are mostly moderates anyway, more so than most Democrats in Rustbelt states.

Trump’s tax plan isn’t really going to help either of us. His elimination of estate taxes (which benefits people like him) is really useless for people like us. The current estate tax laws allows families to shelter up to $10million in net worth, using an A-B Trust, I believe. Above which, there are additional ways to shelter some of that amount. This is nothing more than a handout to the extreme wealthy. It was a ploy to draw out all the 0.1% in this country that probably couldn’t back Trump because of his unsavory view on minorities and women, but appeals to that 0.1% that don’t mind overlooking basic human decency if means saving themselves on taxes, so they can afford an extra Bugatti….. Because obviously, an extra Bugatti is much more important for them than the well being “of a bunch of colored people” and women….. Trump is also proposing an increasing in capital gains taxes, so yes your tax and my tax is going to go up anyway. He is for expanding the child tax credit. But here’s the rub, your “tax credit” for a child most likely is less than additional taxes you are now going to pay for capital gains… At least it certainly would be for me. So again, this is Trump’s nice little plan to wealth transfer money from those in the upper-middle class, while simultaneously leaving the 0.1% alone. See the common theme here? We get hit by both parties.

Hillary is proposing limiting estate tax exemption to 7 million. She is also proposing to increase capital gains taxes, and having the long term capital gains tax rate over a much longer period (5-6 years I think). Does this make that much of difference for us? Probably not that much… Most of our trading in after tax accounts are short term trades taxed as ordinary income already and all the trades in retirement accounts are either tax deferred or tax exempt. And for accounts holding index funds, chances are those are already long term from holding onto them all these years.

The biggest tax issue is step-up cost basis she is proposing to eliminate.. I believe Hillary’s team is still “working out the details”. What was unclear is whether this would be eliminated for everyone or just for people that make $2million+/year. That would have consequences for us holding on to real estate and equity trying to pass it on to our kids, big time. But I’ll reserve judgement until the plan is laid out. It depends on how Hillary defines the cutoff of “wealthy”.

In any case, taxes are going to go up eventually for everyone anyway, simply because this country is bleeding financially. Any politician telling you that taxes aren’t going up is lying and/or only talking to the bottom 1% who never paid taxes or top 0.1% who will always have their tax shelters.

As far as the rest of Hillary is concerned, I don’t give a flying fvck about all the “other issues” that the extreme right wing noise machine continues to make. I don’t care about Bill, I don’t care about Benghazi, about the email, nor do I really give a flying fvck about the Clinton Foundation. All these issues are of no concern to me, relative to the bigger issue that a Trump presidency presents for my kid.[/quote]

Flu, reading your post again, I find your post aggressive for an Asian. It’s pretty audacious on your part to want the best opportunities for your family and kids.

But you know that Trump supporters don’t like the audacity of hope. That immigrants and minorities should have the same opportunities to succeed, even to quickly surpass long established Whites in financial success and other fulfilment. To them, it’s an affront. Trump supporters perceive success by groups other than them, not as success for the whole country, but as them being displaced.

It’s to your credit that you see that the Republican party is populated full of those people. Maybe in the past that was an inconvenient truth that was covered up. But Trump has ripped off the veil. That is the elephant in the room.

[enron_by_the_sea]

[quote=AN][quote=FlyerInHi]
Were are not a parliamentary system. We fight it out within our parties, not on the floor of congress. Bernie asking his supporters to vote for Hillary is not enough for you?[/quote]
Bernie is a sellout idiot.
Johnson is a know nothing idiot.
Hillary is a 10 headed snake.
Trump… well, we know who he is.

Great choices eh?[/quote]

I have seen and lived in other democracies.

Our choices ( other than Trump) are much better than what other people get.

[an]

[quote=enron_by_the_sea][quote=AN][quote=FlyerInHi]
Were are not a parliamentary system. We fight it out within our parties, not on the floor of congress. Bernie asking his supporters to vote for Hillary is not enough for you?[/quote]
Bernie is a sellout idiot.
Johnson is a know nothing idiot.
Hillary is a 10 headed snake.
Trump… well, we know who he is.

Great choices eh?[/quote]

I have seen and lived in other democracies.

Our choices ( other than Trump) are much better than what other people get.[/quote]I totally agree. I was speaking in extreme hyperbole to imitate brian :-).

[an]

[quote=FlyerInHi] You just said that you have faith in our political system.[/quote]I do. Which is why I’m not worried either way. Doesn’t mean I like what I see. That’s two totally different things.

[quote=FlyerInHi] AN, you don’t like the nominee of the Republican party, so you’re voting third party. Good for you. At least you have the good sense to repudiate your party for the collective guilt of nominating Trump. Many of us don’t share your pain.[/quote]I was never a registered Republican. So, they are not my party.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=flu][quote=AN][quote=flu]Because I never thought I would vote for Hillary, lol. Ok, let me correct that. I’m probably not a California Democrat. More like a Bible state democrat. lol.[/quote]

What does that even mean? So you’re OK with higher taxes, bigger government, just as long as they don’t touch college acceptance?[/quote]

AN you know me pretty well. And you know that I would never be Ok with higher taxes and bigger government.

BUT, at this point, I’m more concerned with a longer term damage Trump does to this country than a shorter term damage that Hillary might do to my taxes.

He represents everything wrong about this country, every sorry excuse people make for themselves on why they can’t get ahead. He’s an enabler for people who hate just for the sake of hating, latino, muslims, blacks, and later indians, asians, jews. Maybe not all Trump supporters are like that, but there’s enough of them to make it a problem. And enough of them that I believe if he wins, it could be a problem for not me, but my kids and your kids, especially if they don’t plan on growing up in CA.

I can’t for the life of me explain to my kid how a Trump “President” behaves and acts the way he does as acceptable behavior. Now extrapolate his demeanor and his behavior to the parents and family that think what he is doing is nothing wrong, and pretty soon you have a bunch of little punks that also will end up saying shit to your kid like “Trump is going to send you colored people home”. Shit that was a really bad memory when I was growing up and people like us really were a minority in CA. People always say, things can’t get “that bad” in California. And that’s true. But why must I or my kid be forced to stay in California in order to feel safe or protected? That’s bullshit. My kid has so much more to lose. Neither I or my kid has the luxury to afford a Trump fvckup and his extreme followers in charge. Neither my kid or I are white. We don’t have the privilege of “experimenting” with Trump screwing around with his talk of a theoretical border wall built to keep latinos, or profiling muslims because all of them are terrorists, or his tough talk against chinese who are all hackers and spies and stealing “our jobs”, and on and on and on. These are luxuries a (for a lack of the better word) white family and white kids have, because no matter what Trump does, or how outrageous he casts his “blame net” on, it is very unlikely to ever impact a “white family”. Sure, it’s very easy for some of his supporters to say “Trump is being honest, and I’m so glad he’s not PC”. Again, they are white, and no matter what he does, yes they are correct, their life won’t change significantly no matter what he does. You, me, your kid, my kid, we’re not so lucky. Maybe we aren’t going be a target first, maybe we won’t ever be a target. You want to take a chance? I don’t. While as I don’t give a flying fvck about me, I do care a lot about my kid and the world that my kid will have to grow up in.

[snip]

As far as the rest of Hillary is concerned, I don’t give a flying fvck about all the “other issues” that the extreme right wing noise machine continues to make. I don’t care about Bill, I don’t care about Benghazi, about the email, nor do I really give a flying fvck about the Clinton Foundation. All these issues are of no concern to me, relative to the bigger issue that a Trump presidency presents for my kid.[/quote]

flu/flu redux/bullishgurl/fat_lazy_union, et al:

I have never read such a warped version of a “woe is me, me and my kids are/will be so disadvantaged” (with a Trump presidency) diatribe in my entire life! That is the biggest crock of BS that I have seen in a lo-o-o-o-ng time. Didn’t you grow up in CA? Was that in the ’80’s or ’90’s? If so, why don’t you tell the Piggs what backwoods CA city/town you grew up in where you were called “colored?” I myself attended elementary school in a suburban area of the SF Bay area where we had 8-14 “Chinese” classmates in each class. Yes, the classes back then were larger than today (30-40 students) because we boomers were a large generation, close-in bay area cities were growing rapidly and there were no class-size limitations in place at that time. All of us kids learned in groups together and played together, no matter HOW we looked! Good L@rd, we’re talking the early ’60’s here!

Last time I looked, (9/26/16 when I was surrounded by them in LA’s SGV), most “Chinese people” were “whiter” than “Caucasian people,” lol …. you know, those same peeps you’re calling “white” and “the most advantaged” and “nothing impacts them?”

Can you point me to any videos where Trump stated that, “All Chinese are hackers or spies?” YES, he’s said China has taken millions of our jobs. WHY?? Because our esteemed “leaders in charge” GAVE THEM AWAY! THAT’s EXACTLY what Trump said . . . he has NOTHING against Chinese workers or citizens.

flu, et al, you desperately need to get out more and hit the road 1-2x per year! I think you will find that you, your family and all your “Muslim” or “East Indian” friends coming along for the ride are welcome everywhere from SD to Brownsville, TX or SD to Atlanta . . . or all the way to Key West, if you so choose. You will also find that you will be welcome from SD to Wilmington, NC, SD to Baltimore MD or SD to Teaneck, NJ. Pick your poison E/W Interstate. And be sure to stop at a few truck stops along the way and sit at the counter and start talking to people!

And your kid will most certainly be welcome in any college or job she accepts in the entire country no matter who becomes president in 2017! And I believe you actually KNOW this at some level.

It is beyond clear here that YOU have been living in some sort of a self-imposed bubble and are completely out of touch with everything outside of it. You’ve clearly got a chip on your shoulder the size of the Grand Canyon! You would do well to drop it and quit blaming others (“white people?” . . . and Trump) for everything you find distasteful in the MSM.

This mindset is mind-boggling to me, coming from the likes of you, flu. Someone who’s grown up in AMERICA with every advantage and has been more successful than most as an adult. Just unbelievable … :=0

[flu]

Lol. just more shining examples of deplorables….

Well, at least they didn’t put a noose around a caricature of Obama….yet….no problem going there….

http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/04/politics/hillary-clinton-float-electric-chair-aurora/index.html

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=zk]

I must admit I’m struggling not to lose respect for some friends who are trump voters. I knew they were voting for Bush, and I thought, well, we’ll agree to disagree. I’ve thought Bush was an idiot since before 2000, but I could, with some effort, see things from their perspective. But it’s very hard for me to see trump from their perspective and not think that it’s a willfully ignorant perspective.

Sure, they’ve been manipulated for decades by fox et al. But even despite that, surely they can see that trump is a disaster waiting to happen. Right? How could they not see that?

Maybe they can see now that they’ve been bamboozled all these years. Maybe because trump is sooo bad, but the right wing noise machine is still painting him as good, maybe the contrast between reality and right-wing “news” is finally so massive that even they at last can see it. But they don’t want to admit it to themselves, so now they’re just sliding down the rapids toward disaster without even putting up a fight. “We’re not giving up now!” I don’t know. Just a theory. I really don’t understand it.

In any case, while I’m struggling to maintain respect, I’m succeeding. I’m not losing any friends over it. Think about this: Whatever trump’s appeal is, it appeals to over 40% of registered voters, so therefore probably at least that percentage of adult Americans. So you can’t really say that a friend who is a trump voter is flawed to a reject-them-as-a-friend degree without saying that same thing about more than 40% of people. The point I’m struggling to make is that whatever his appeal is, it appeals to something basic in human nature. Trump voters are human. Whatever their flaws are are flaws in human nature in general. It’s not like, say, being a true, diagnosable narcissist. A narcissist would have flaws that go beyond basic human nature. A severe narcissist is definitely, in my opinion, flawed to a reject-them-as-a-friend degree. But a guy who is drawn to somebody, no matter how outrageously bad, that over 40% of the population is drawn to? Whatever his flaw is has to be a basic flaw in human nature. And you can’t really blame a guy for that.

I’m honestly not sure if that last paragraph makes any sense. (And it certainly could’ve been written better, but I’m in a hurry.) But I like my friends, and that’s all I’ve got.[/quote]

zk, you sound like a kind person, a lot more giving than me.

You understand human nature well; and you’re willing to accept people as they are.

I feel that this election is like support for civil rights back in the 60s. People who were on the wrong side of history deserved to be forever shamed, or having to make amends for decades. Today, people who support Trump should never be allowed a free pass.

Seriously here, do you find that you are the one who is diplomatic so not to upset your Republican friends when it comes to politics and current events?

I think your answer will be something like this: “Yes, but I’m OK with it because they are giving in other ways, and they are my friends.”

[scaredyclassic]

ban plastic bags or youre not my friend

[scaredyclassic]

ban plastic bags or youre not my friend

[zk]

[quote=FlyerInHi]

Seriously here, do you find that you are the one who is diplomatic so not to upset your Republican friends when it comes to politics and current events?

[/quote]

Surprisingly (to you, anyway, knowing only that they are Trump supporters but not knowing them), they are as diplomatic about it as I am. It generally doesn’t get discussed. In conversation, one or two of them will occasionally skirt politics, but when I steer the conversation away, they go with it. They don’t say they think it’s idiotic for me to vote for Clinton, even though they probably think it. Just like I don’t say I think it’s idiotic for them to vote for Trump, even though I think it.

[FlyerInHi]

I have a several NRA friends and also people who bitch about plastic bag ban, etc…

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=bearishgurl]
This mindset is mind-boggling to me, coming from the likes of you, flu. Someone who’s grown up in AMERICA with every advantage and has been more successful than most as an adult. Just unbelievable … :=0[/quote]

I think that flu’s post is spot on as to the risk of a Trump presidency.

Watch the documentary on Maya Lin, the Chinese American architect. You will see what the deplorables did to her not that long ago, in that 80s. Her opportunities were limited as a result. Congress even forced a change to her design.

Her design is now one of the most beloved and interactive works of American architecture. Any apology since then? No.

Flu has the audacity to want the very best for his kids in whatever field they want to pursue. He’s not content with second best. And that’s where it matters.

[flu]

[quote=FlyerInHi][quote=bearishgurl]
This mindset is mind-boggling to me, coming from the likes of you, flu. Someone who’s grown up in AMERICA with every advantage and has been more successful than most as an adult. Just unbelievable … :=0[/quote]

I think that flu’s post is spot on as to the risk of a Trump presidency.

Watch the documentary on Maya Lin, the Chinese American architect. You will see what the deplorables did to her not that long ago, in that 80s. Her opportunities were limited as a result. Congress even forced a change to her design.

Her design is now one of the most beloved and interactive works of American architecture. Any apology since then? No.

Flu has the audacity to want the very best for his kids in whatever field they want to pursue. He’s not content with second best. And that’s where it matters.[/quote]

Actually, it’s much more simple than that.

I grew up working my ass off, just like my parents did. I was raised with the mentality that no one owes you shit, and not to count on anyone. I was raised with the mentality that life ain’t fair, and somewhere along the line, its not going to be an even playing field, and even when that’s the case, stop making sorry ass excuses for yourself, because no one cares. And I was also raised with the notion that so long as you spend more time self improving and less time bitching about the injustices of the world, you would be a much more productive member of society and productive for yourself.

A lot of people had the same or if not better opportunities then me, having years of family history here much earlier, and a lot more financial resources at the time than anyone in my family did. And what happened? They CHOSE not to improve. they CHOSE not to go to college. Or learn new skills..

Unless someone has a mental deficiency, physical limitation, or medical condition, there really is no excuse for why you can’t better yourself especially all the young ones that now complain. For how much time these idiots spent time at campaign rallies, spewing hateful things against immigrants, latinos, h1bs, women,etc, if they actually attended a vocational class and invested time improving themselves, perhaps hey wouldn’t be in the economic and financial situation they are in. And yet, what do they do? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

It’s really ironic that for the longest time , Republicans have always said “have some personal responsibility” when anyone suggests things like affirmative action, quotas, inequality between whites and others….

And yet, here we are now, trump supporters predominantly, complaining about how unfair things are, how unfair it is that some immigrants, foreigners have better opportunities, how its unfair how some jobs are disappearing.

What happened to “personal responsibility”?

[FlyerInHi]

I see your point, flu.

I wouldn’t say that some immigrants and foreigners have systemic better opportunities. If anything, they are at a disadvantage, all else being equal.

I read BG’s response as you’re “more successful than most”. So be happy with that.

Trump enabled xenophobia, especially backed by presidential power is dangerous. Minorities may still become “more successful than most”, but they may not be able to achieve their full potential.

What if someone has the drive to not only be “more successful than most” but to become the very best? There is only so much room at the top and will those spots be reserved by Trump and his supporters?

Would a young Mexican or Chinese American child be empowered to aspire to become president? Or would the prevailing culture under Trump make that much less likely?

I brought up the Maya Lin story because she was the very best, and we are all the better off for it. The interactive aspect of a memorial is her innovation. And without her, the Vietnam memorial would be a bunch of traditional statues. And we may not have the interactive aspect of the 9/11 memorial today.

[njtosd]

[quote=flu-redux]
I grew up working my ass off, just like my parents did. I was raised with the mentality that no one owes you shit, and not to count on anyone. I was raised with the mentality that life ain’t fair, and somewhere along the line, its not going to be an even playing field, and even when that’s the case, stop making sorry ass excuses for yourself, because no one cares. And I was also raised with the notion that so long as you spend more time self improving and less time bitching about the injustices of the world, you would be a much more productive member of society and productive for yourself.

[/quote]

Just to play the devil’s advocate (and I am in favor of working hard . . . ) – if you cannot count on anyone, if people simply accept that life isn’t fair, if no one really cares and if no one is willing to combat the injustices of the world – the world will give people just those things. There should be people out there rallying for fair treatment, correcting or at least minimizing the injustices and thinking beyond simply their own needs. People need to get mad when there is unfairness, not just buckle under and work harder. Life isn’t fair but we should always work to make it so, even if we know we won’t succeed. All said, though, this should never be used as an excuse.

[Author]

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