Proposition 23

[enron_by_the_sea]

[quote=danielwis]Has there ever been a proposition to rescind a proposition? It seems voters have buyers remorse afterwards when they find out how expensive some of these propositions become.[/quote]

Prop 27 this cycle proposes to repeal prop 11 of 2008.

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/California_Proposition_27,_Elimination_of_Citizen_Redistricting_Commission_%282010%29

The original Prop 11 (of 2008) took away the task of redistricting (for assembly districts) away from CA legislature. Prop 27 attempts to invalidate that.

Needless to say, most politicians (starting from Nancy Pelosi and down) are supporting Prop.27. PLEASE VOTE NO ON PROP 27. Politicians should not decide their own districts. It perpetuates incumbency.

To confuse matters further, there is Prop. 20 on the ballot which basically says the opposite and even takes away the power to redistrict congressional districts away from legislature. (Hopefully you will vote YES on that.)

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/California_Proposition_20,_Congressional_Redistricting_%282010%29

If both prop. 20 and 27 pass, the one with maximum votes wins….

[air_ogi]

[quote=jstoesz]I give 5-10 post of reasoned arguments about how AB32 harms the economy. Most of which go unresponded to. I post one flawed study (a agree it is flawed) and you feel license to judge my critical thinking skills.

Post something of value BGIG, I would love to hear how AB32 is a boon to the economy.

Thanks.[/quote]

Fair enough.

Investment in wind and solar will result in ton of high end engineering, manufacturing and installation jobs. Sure, some of it will go to China, but European companies that invested early in wind, made a ton of money EXPORTING to China. If we make investment now, you will have cheap clean energy by 2020. If not, it will always be 10 years away.

AB32 reduces our dependence on foreign oil. We import around 12.2M bbl/day. If there is a correct mix of electric cars and high efficiency vehicles in US, complete switch from heating oil to natural gas, the imports can be completely eliminated. That would result in ability to reduce our defense budget by probably around $400B/year. Do you think $400B tax cut would be good for the economy?
Now, AB32 doesn’t do all of that, but it nudges us in the right direction.

As cheap supplies dwindle and third world demand grows, prices of oil will go higher and higher. If nothing else, AB32 is an insurance policy that when oil goes to $200, you will be able to buy a relatively inexpensive electric or high MPG car. California electric car initiative got canceled, but I can guarantee you that a lot of people are very happy they can purchase a Prius.
And before you can say free market can fix all of that, just look how long car manufacturers are taking to introduce efficient vehicles on their own.

Same deal with electricity generation. When the new Enron decides to screw with us, you just put solar panels on your house. In Germany, which has well developed installer market, you can put up solar panels, installation and transformer included, at about $4/W. With San Diego insolation, that translates to about 12c/kWh, without any government subsidies.

And finally, climate change. Lets say 98% of scientists are wrong, and that there is only 30% chance of any negative effects. Do you know what the cost would be of having most of eastern California turn into desert? Or what the cost to industry would be if water prices went up 1000%?

I don’t see AB32 as a stimulus to economy, I see it as insurance policy.

[air_ogi]

[quote=jstoesz]I give 5-10 post of reasoned arguments about how AB32 harms the economy. Most of which go unresponded to. I post one flawed study (a agree it is flawed) and you feel license to judge my critical thinking skills.

Post something of value BGIG, I would love to hear how AB32 is a boon to the economy.

Thanks.[/quote]

Fair enough.

Investment in wind and solar will result in ton of high end engineering, manufacturing and installation jobs. Sure, some of it will go to China, but European companies that invested early in wind, made a ton of money EXPORTING to China. If we make investment now, you will have cheap clean energy by 2020. If not, it will always be 10 years away.

AB32 reduces our dependence on foreign oil. We import around 12.2M bbl/day. If there is a correct mix of electric cars and high efficiency vehicles in US, complete switch from heating oil to natural gas, the imports can be completely eliminated. That would result in ability to reduce our defense budget by probably around $400B/year. Do you think $400B tax cut would be good for the economy?
Now, AB32 doesn’t do all of that, but it nudges us in the right direction.

As cheap supplies dwindle and third world demand grows, prices of oil will go higher and higher. If nothing else, AB32 is an insurance policy that when oil goes to $200, you will be able to buy a relatively inexpensive electric or high MPG car. California electric car initiative got canceled, but I can guarantee you that a lot of people are very happy they can purchase a Prius.
And before you can say free market can fix all of that, just look how long car manufacturers are taking to introduce efficient vehicles on their own.

Same deal with electricity generation. When the new Enron decides to screw with us, you just put solar panels on your house. In Germany, which has well developed installer market, you can put up solar panels, installation and transformer included, at about $4/W. With San Diego insolation, that translates to about 12c/kWh, without any government subsidies.

And finally, climate change. Lets say 98% of scientists are wrong, and that there is only 30% chance of any negative effects. Do you know what the cost would be of having most of eastern California turn into desert? Or what the cost to industry would be if water prices went up 1000%?

I don’t see AB32 as a stimulus to economy, I see it as insurance policy.

[air_ogi]

[quote=jstoesz]I give 5-10 post of reasoned arguments about how AB32 harms the economy. Most of which go unresponded to. I post one flawed study (a agree it is flawed) and you feel license to judge my critical thinking skills.

Post something of value BGIG, I would love to hear how AB32 is a boon to the economy.

Thanks.[/quote]

Fair enough.

Investment in wind and solar will result in ton of high end engineering, manufacturing and installation jobs. Sure, some of it will go to China, but European companies that invested early in wind, made a ton of money EXPORTING to China. If we make investment now, you will have cheap clean energy by 2020. If not, it will always be 10 years away.

AB32 reduces our dependence on foreign oil. We import around 12.2M bbl/day. If there is a correct mix of electric cars and high efficiency vehicles in US, complete switch from heating oil to natural gas, the imports can be completely eliminated. That would result in ability to reduce our defense budget by probably around $400B/year. Do you think $400B tax cut would be good for the economy?
Now, AB32 doesn’t do all of that, but it nudges us in the right direction.

As cheap supplies dwindle and third world demand grows, prices of oil will go higher and higher. If nothing else, AB32 is an insurance policy that when oil goes to $200, you will be able to buy a relatively inexpensive electric or high MPG car. California electric car initiative got canceled, but I can guarantee you that a lot of people are very happy they can purchase a Prius.
And before you can say free market can fix all of that, just look how long car manufacturers are taking to introduce efficient vehicles on their own.

Same deal with electricity generation. When the new Enron decides to screw with us, you just put solar panels on your house. In Germany, which has well developed installer market, you can put up solar panels, installation and transformer included, at about $4/W. With San Diego insolation, that translates to about 12c/kWh, without any government subsidies.

And finally, climate change. Lets say 98% of scientists are wrong, and that there is only 30% chance of any negative effects. Do you know what the cost would be of having most of eastern California turn into desert? Or what the cost to industry would be if water prices went up 1000%?

I don’t see AB32 as a stimulus to economy, I see it as insurance policy.

[air_ogi]

[quote=jstoesz]I give 5-10 post of reasoned arguments about how AB32 harms the economy. Most of which go unresponded to. I post one flawed study (a agree it is flawed) and you feel license to judge my critical thinking skills.

Post something of value BGIG, I would love to hear how AB32 is a boon to the economy.

Thanks.[/quote]

Fair enough.

Investment in wind and solar will result in ton of high end engineering, manufacturing and installation jobs. Sure, some of it will go to China, but European companies that invested early in wind, made a ton of money EXPORTING to China. If we make investment now, you will have cheap clean energy by 2020. If not, it will always be 10 years away.

AB32 reduces our dependence on foreign oil. We import around 12.2M bbl/day. If there is a correct mix of electric cars and high efficiency vehicles in US, complete switch from heating oil to natural gas, the imports can be completely eliminated. That would result in ability to reduce our defense budget by probably around $400B/year. Do you think $400B tax cut would be good for the economy?
Now, AB32 doesn’t do all of that, but it nudges us in the right direction.

As cheap supplies dwindle and third world demand grows, prices of oil will go higher and higher. If nothing else, AB32 is an insurance policy that when oil goes to $200, you will be able to buy a relatively inexpensive electric or high MPG car. California electric car initiative got canceled, but I can guarantee you that a lot of people are very happy they can purchase a Prius.
And before you can say free market can fix all of that, just look how long car manufacturers are taking to introduce efficient vehicles on their own.

Same deal with electricity generation. When the new Enron decides to screw with us, you just put solar panels on your house. In Germany, which has well developed installer market, you can put up solar panels, installation and transformer included, at about $4/W. With San Diego insolation, that translates to about 12c/kWh, without any government subsidies.

And finally, climate change. Lets say 98% of scientists are wrong, and that there is only 30% chance of any negative effects. Do you know what the cost would be of having most of eastern California turn into desert? Or what the cost to industry would be if water prices went up 1000%?

I don’t see AB32 as a stimulus to economy, I see it as insurance policy.

[air_ogi]

[quote=jstoesz]I give 5-10 post of reasoned arguments about how AB32 harms the economy. Most of which go unresponded to. I post one flawed study (a agree it is flawed) and you feel license to judge my critical thinking skills.

Post something of value BGIG, I would love to hear how AB32 is a boon to the economy.

Thanks.[/quote]

Fair enough.

Investment in wind and solar will result in ton of high end engineering, manufacturing and installation jobs. Sure, some of it will go to China, but European companies that invested early in wind, made a ton of money EXPORTING to China. If we make investment now, you will have cheap clean energy by 2020. If not, it will always be 10 years away.

AB32 reduces our dependence on foreign oil. We import around 12.2M bbl/day. If there is a correct mix of electric cars and high efficiency vehicles in US, complete switch from heating oil to natural gas, the imports can be completely eliminated. That would result in ability to reduce our defense budget by probably around $400B/year. Do you think $400B tax cut would be good for the economy?
Now, AB32 doesn’t do all of that, but it nudges us in the right direction.

As cheap supplies dwindle and third world demand grows, prices of oil will go higher and higher. If nothing else, AB32 is an insurance policy that when oil goes to $200, you will be able to buy a relatively inexpensive electric or high MPG car. California electric car initiative got canceled, but I can guarantee you that a lot of people are very happy they can purchase a Prius.
And before you can say free market can fix all of that, just look how long car manufacturers are taking to introduce efficient vehicles on their own.

Same deal with electricity generation. When the new Enron decides to screw with us, you just put solar panels on your house. In Germany, which has well developed installer market, you can put up solar panels, installation and transformer included, at about $4/W. With San Diego insolation, that translates to about 12c/kWh, without any government subsidies.

And finally, climate change. Lets say 98% of scientists are wrong, and that there is only 30% chance of any negative effects. Do you know what the cost would be of having most of eastern California turn into desert? Or what the cost to industry would be if water prices went up 1000%?

I don’t see AB32 as a stimulus to economy, I see it as insurance policy.

[BigGovernmentIsGood]

Daaaaammmmnnn! Very impressive. I love being on the side of the smartest people in the room.

[BigGovernmentIsGood]

Daaaaammmmnnn! Very impressive. I love being on the side of the smartest people in the room.

[BigGovernmentIsGood]

Daaaaammmmnnn! Very impressive. I love being on the side of the smartest people in the room.

[BigGovernmentIsGood]

Daaaaammmmnnn! Very impressive. I love being on the side of the smartest people in the room.

[BigGovernmentIsGood]

Daaaaammmmnnn! Very impressive. I love being on the side of the smartest people in the room.

[davelj]

[quote=BigGovernmentIsGood]For those of you in favor of Prop 23, please move to the Gulf Coast so that you can reap the benefits of the fantastic economy and environment created by Big Oil.[/quote]

For the record, I’m totally indifferent to Prop 23. I couldn’t possibly care less whether it passes or not. But since you brought it up, I spend three days a month in New Orleans. Louisiana has one of the lowest unemployment rates in the U.S. And I’ve been eating copious amounts of seafood before, during and after the Oil Spill to zero ill effect. Don’t get me wrong, no oil spills are preferable to oil spills. But I’m not overly concerned about the long-term effects.

[davelj]

[quote=BigGovernmentIsGood]For those of you in favor of Prop 23, please move to the Gulf Coast so that you can reap the benefits of the fantastic economy and environment created by Big Oil.[/quote]

For the record, I’m totally indifferent to Prop 23. I couldn’t possibly care less whether it passes or not. But since you brought it up, I spend three days a month in New Orleans. Louisiana has one of the lowest unemployment rates in the U.S. And I’ve been eating copious amounts of seafood before, during and after the Oil Spill to zero ill effect. Don’t get me wrong, no oil spills are preferable to oil spills. But I’m not overly concerned about the long-term effects.

[davelj]

[quote=BigGovernmentIsGood]For those of you in favor of Prop 23, please move to the Gulf Coast so that you can reap the benefits of the fantastic economy and environment created by Big Oil.[/quote]

For the record, I’m totally indifferent to Prop 23. I couldn’t possibly care less whether it passes or not. But since you brought it up, I spend three days a month in New Orleans. Louisiana has one of the lowest unemployment rates in the U.S. And I’ve been eating copious amounts of seafood before, during and after the Oil Spill to zero ill effect. Don’t get me wrong, no oil spills are preferable to oil spills. But I’m not overly concerned about the long-term effects.

[davelj]

[quote=BigGovernmentIsGood]For those of you in favor of Prop 23, please move to the Gulf Coast so that you can reap the benefits of the fantastic economy and environment created by Big Oil.[/quote]

For the record, I’m totally indifferent to Prop 23. I couldn’t possibly care less whether it passes or not. But since you brought it up, I spend three days a month in New Orleans. Louisiana has one of the lowest unemployment rates in the U.S. And I’ve been eating copious amounts of seafood before, during and after the Oil Spill to zero ill effect. Don’t get me wrong, no oil spills are preferable to oil spills. But I’m not overly concerned about the long-term effects.

[Author]

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