plunging birthrate

[CA renter]

[quote=briansd1][quote=CA renter]
Precisely why some of us really hate our current version of “free trade.” We gave up great jobs and well-made durable goods. Yes, they were more expensive than the plastic junk made in China, but a US-made, $500 widget might last a lifetime (or 20-30 years), while a Chinese-made $100K widget lasts only a couple of years. [/quote]

Free trade is good and increases our standard of living (as measured by the stuff we can buy with our money).

Take my Harbor Freight example. If you need to fix a fence you can buy a cheap air stapler for $20. It does the job but it’s crap and won’t last long.

Why do you need a $300 made-in-USA tool, if you’re not in the trade? You need a tool to use once and maybe you’ll misplace it somewhere in the garage.

So thanks to the cheap tool, you can build your fence yourself and save money to spend in other areas of the economy.

With many choices, we have to choose wisely.[/quote]

If you have a well-built tool, you can become more self-sufficient, even if you don’t use it professionally. Most people would be more inclined to learn how to use it well, and would be more likely to put it to good use if they had to pay more for it. Additionally, other people can borrow your tool (or you can borrow theirs), preventing a lot of pollution and reducing the need to use finite resources in the production of these goods.

If you have a $300 widget, trust me, you’re not “losing it in the garage”; you’re going to take much better care of it than you would that $20 piece of crap from China.

Arraya alluded to one of the issues with our version of “free trade,” in the above post: it’s a race to the bottom. Once a competitor grows their profit margins by going overseas (even while undercutting your price), you have very little choice but to follow them. Since we’ve off-shored so many of our good jobs that provided our higher-quality durable goods, we have no choice but to buy cheap crap from China. Many of us want that choice, but it’s been largely taken away from us.

As to your quote here:

Free trade is good and increases our standard of living (as measured by the stuff we can buy with our money).

You’re focusing on price, while I focus on value. We get MORE for our money when things are built to last. IMHO, our quality of life is better when we get more value for our money.

[Arraya]

[quote=briansd1]

Then was is the correct assessment of the situation in Greece and Spain?
[/quote]

Let me rephrase, again. That was so incredibly simplistic of an assessment to the point of being irrelevant to the bigger picture.

[quote=briansd1]
The way I see it that the PIGS, upon joining the Euro suddenly enjoyed higher purchasing and borrowing power and better standards of living, but they failed to reform and improve productivity.
[/quote]

Yes, if you join agree play by the dominant mafias rules you get more goodies. At least that was the plan. And who could turn it down. Even if the dominant set of rules was unsustainable, doomed to fail and systemically corrupt. And when the unsustainable rules blow up, the victims are demonized and the mafia gets it all. This was used across south america over the last few decades.

[quote=briansd1]
So now it’s time to pay back the debt.
[/quote]

No, it’s time to default on loans with predatory designs and bring the whole house of cards down. Lets step back and take a look at the big picture, which I tried to to with my lengthy post on population dynamics above. What we have here, IMO, is a systemically induced “crisis” (housing bubble) at the onset of a naturally induced crisis(peak oil) – which muddied the waters and, peak oil alone, would have set up a very similar dynamic(credit/banking crisis) without the housing bubble. My question is, did money power knowingly influence the housing bubble as to hide peak oil? What this essentially would do is get the population arguing over the “blame” much more so than just an oil shock induced crisis. As in, “look at all these greedy debtors that went crazy” rather than focusing elsewhere. And really, it’s irrelevant what the policy makes knew and how that influenced policy decisions. But, what is fact, is that we landed our troops on the most unexplored and possibly biggest oil reserves on the planet, simultaneously while blowing the biggest financial bubble of all time, all while approaching the onset of permanent world oil decline(which has been well studied by geo-strategic planners since the 90s and maybe as far back as the 60s).

[quote=briansd1]
The PIGS are not much different from American homeowners buying houses they couldn’t afford. Is that because of corruption on the bankers’ part, or is it because of gluttony on the part of the debtors (who wanted to consume more)?
[/quote]

They are not much different in their gullibility or corruption at the top of the pyramid where the politicians are in back pockets of money power sacrificing the citizens and behest of their lord mammon. Yes, many citizens took the bait, but I would be willing to bet their is more collateral damage than not. In addition, “gluttony” is a major driver of profits and economic growth. Debt based gluttony included. And even debt based gluttony that was defaulted on lined the pockets of a few – and still is.

[quote=briansd1]
There’s plenty of blame to go around.
[/quote]

Only in the unsustainable system which spawned it, though I will place slightly more blame at the top of the scam. The socially sophisticated and influencial ones that seem to be benefiting and concentrating wealth from the debacle.

If you step back a look at this, it is systemic across the whole world and concentrated in western states. It is a massive market failure primarily caused by politicians and bankers.

[quote=briansd1]
But demonstrating for a return to the easy money will not work. The citizens of the PIGS can overthrow their governments all they want, but civil unrest and anarchy will make things worse, not better.
[/quote]

Again, you seem to be a little hypocritical because the return of easy money is what you advocate and praise here. Second, if you think they are out there protesting for more stuff, you are extremely misguided. My hopes, is that it will spawn cascading bank and derivatives failure that will spread across europe and the US – just to get the show on the road. It’s coming regardless. The longer we drag it out the lizard bankers will get it all. Rather than a slow boil for humanity – I’d like to see them doused scalding how water as to awake from their slumber as not to be ushered into a feudalistic future.

[quote=briansd1]

Europe has a problem with too much debt and too few productive working people.[/quote]

What you are creating is a dialectic. Opposing forces which clash and create a new reality. The old, debtor’s tyranny over productive workers. The greedy debtors that want more verse the productive workers that live within their means and have to suffer. Viewing reality this way will skew your perception and form your allegiances. I think that is a false dialectic. It is, and has always been, money power verse the rest of humanity. Those who want it all, and use their influence over social institutions to influence behavior verse everybody else. It’s part of the dueling perception or narratives that is emerging. With your perception, you are aligning with money power over the majority. So, you mine as well join the tea-party now;)

[Arraya]

[quote=briansd1]

Then was is the correct assessment of the situation in Greece and Spain?
[/quote]

Let me rephrase, again. That was so incredibly simplistic of an assessment to the point of being irrelevant to the bigger picture.

[quote=briansd1]
The way I see it that the PIGS, upon joining the Euro suddenly enjoyed higher purchasing and borrowing power and better standards of living, but they failed to reform and improve productivity.
[/quote]

Yes, if you join agree play by the dominant mafias rules you get more goodies. At least that was the plan. And who could turn it down. Even if the dominant set of rules was unsustainable, doomed to fail and systemically corrupt. And when the unsustainable rules blow up, the victims are demonized and the mafia gets it all. This was used across south america over the last few decades.

[quote=briansd1]
So now it’s time to pay back the debt.
[/quote]

No, it’s time to default on loans with predatory designs and bring the whole house of cards down. Lets step back and take a look at the big picture, which I tried to to with my lengthy post on population dynamics above. What we have here, IMO, is a systemically induced “crisis” (housing bubble) at the onset of a naturally induced crisis(peak oil) – which muddied the waters and, peak oil alone, would have set up a very similar dynamic(credit/banking crisis) without the housing bubble. My question is, did money power knowingly influence the housing bubble as to hide peak oil? What this essentially would do is get the population arguing over the “blame” much more so than just an oil shock induced crisis. As in, “look at all these greedy debtors that went crazy” rather than focusing elsewhere. And really, it’s irrelevant what the policy makes knew and how that influenced policy decisions. But, what is fact, is that we landed our troops on the most unexplored and possibly biggest oil reserves on the planet, simultaneously while blowing the biggest financial bubble of all time, all while approaching the onset of permanent world oil decline(which has been well studied by geo-strategic planners since the 90s and maybe as far back as the 60s).

[quote=briansd1]
The PIGS are not much different from American homeowners buying houses they couldn’t afford. Is that because of corruption on the bankers’ part, or is it because of gluttony on the part of the debtors (who wanted to consume more)?
[/quote]

They are not much different in their gullibility or corruption at the top of the pyramid where the politicians are in back pockets of money power sacrificing the citizens and behest of their lord mammon. Yes, many citizens took the bait, but I would be willing to bet their is more collateral damage than not. In addition, “gluttony” is a major driver of profits and economic growth. Debt based gluttony included. And even debt based gluttony that was defaulted on lined the pockets of a few – and still is.

[quote=briansd1]
There’s plenty of blame to go around.
[/quote]

Only in the unsustainable system which spawned it, though I will place slightly more blame at the top of the scam. The socially sophisticated and influencial ones that seem to be benefiting and concentrating wealth from the debacle.

If you step back a look at this, it is systemic across the whole world and concentrated in western states. It is a massive market failure primarily caused by politicians and bankers.

[quote=briansd1]
But demonstrating for a return to the easy money will not work. The citizens of the PIGS can overthrow their governments all they want, but civil unrest and anarchy will make things worse, not better.
[/quote]

Again, you seem to be a little hypocritical because the return of easy money is what you advocate and praise here. Second, if you think they are out there protesting for more stuff, you are extremely misguided. My hopes, is that it will spawn cascading bank and derivatives failure that will spread across europe and the US – just to get the show on the road. It’s coming regardless. The longer we drag it out the lizard bankers will get it all. Rather than a slow boil for humanity – I’d like to see them doused scalding how water as to awake from their slumber as not to be ushered into a feudalistic future.

[quote=briansd1]

Europe has a problem with too much debt and too few productive working people.[/quote]

What you are creating is a dialectic. Opposing forces which clash and create a new reality. The old, debtor’s tyranny over productive workers. The greedy debtors that want more verse the productive workers that live within their means and have to suffer. Viewing reality this way will skew your perception and form your allegiances. I think that is a false dialectic. It is, and has always been, money power verse the rest of humanity. Those who want it all, and use their influence over social institutions to influence behavior verse everybody else. It’s part of the dueling perception or narratives that is emerging. With your perception, you are aligning with money power over the majority. So, you mine as well join the tea-party now;)

[Arraya]

[quote=briansd1]

Then was is the correct assessment of the situation in Greece and Spain?
[/quote]

Let me rephrase, again. That was so incredibly simplistic of an assessment to the point of being irrelevant to the bigger picture.

[quote=briansd1]
The way I see it that the PIGS, upon joining the Euro suddenly enjoyed higher purchasing and borrowing power and better standards of living, but they failed to reform and improve productivity.
[/quote]

Yes, if you join agree play by the dominant mafias rules you get more goodies. At least that was the plan. And who could turn it down. Even if the dominant set of rules was unsustainable, doomed to fail and systemically corrupt. And when the unsustainable rules blow up, the victims are demonized and the mafia gets it all. This was used across south america over the last few decades.

[quote=briansd1]
So now it’s time to pay back the debt.
[/quote]

No, it’s time to default on loans with predatory designs and bring the whole house of cards down. Lets step back and take a look at the big picture, which I tried to to with my lengthy post on population dynamics above. What we have here, IMO, is a systemically induced “crisis” (housing bubble) at the onset of a naturally induced crisis(peak oil) – which muddied the waters and, peak oil alone, would have set up a very similar dynamic(credit/banking crisis) without the housing bubble. My question is, did money power knowingly influence the housing bubble as to hide peak oil? What this essentially would do is get the population arguing over the “blame” much more so than just an oil shock induced crisis. As in, “look at all these greedy debtors that went crazy” rather than focusing elsewhere. And really, it’s irrelevant what the policy makes knew and how that influenced policy decisions. But, what is fact, is that we landed our troops on the most unexplored and possibly biggest oil reserves on the planet, simultaneously while blowing the biggest financial bubble of all time, all while approaching the onset of permanent world oil decline(which has been well studied by geo-strategic planners since the 90s and maybe as far back as the 60s).

[quote=briansd1]
The PIGS are not much different from American homeowners buying houses they couldn’t afford. Is that because of corruption on the bankers’ part, or is it because of gluttony on the part of the debtors (who wanted to consume more)?
[/quote]

They are not much different in their gullibility or corruption at the top of the pyramid where the politicians are in back pockets of money power sacrificing the citizens and behest of their lord mammon. Yes, many citizens took the bait, but I would be willing to bet their is more collateral damage than not. In addition, “gluttony” is a major driver of profits and economic growth. Debt based gluttony included. And even debt based gluttony that was defaulted on lined the pockets of a few – and still is.

[quote=briansd1]
There’s plenty of blame to go around.
[/quote]

Only in the unsustainable system which spawned it, though I will place slightly more blame at the top of the scam. The socially sophisticated and influencial ones that seem to be benefiting and concentrating wealth from the debacle.

If you step back a look at this, it is systemic across the whole world and concentrated in western states. It is a massive market failure primarily caused by politicians and bankers.

[quote=briansd1]
But demonstrating for a return to the easy money will not work. The citizens of the PIGS can overthrow their governments all they want, but civil unrest and anarchy will make things worse, not better.
[/quote]

Again, you seem to be a little hypocritical because the return of easy money is what you advocate and praise here. Second, if you think they are out there protesting for more stuff, you are extremely misguided. My hopes, is that it will spawn cascading bank and derivatives failure that will spread across europe and the US – just to get the show on the road. It’s coming regardless. The longer we drag it out the lizard bankers will get it all. Rather than a slow boil for humanity – I’d like to see them doused scalding how water as to awake from their slumber as not to be ushered into a feudalistic future.

[quote=briansd1]

Europe has a problem with too much debt and too few productive working people.[/quote]

What you are creating is a dialectic. Opposing forces which clash and create a new reality. The old, debtor’s tyranny over productive workers. The greedy debtors that want more verse the productive workers that live within their means and have to suffer. Viewing reality this way will skew your perception and form your allegiances. I think that is a false dialectic. It is, and has always been, money power verse the rest of humanity. Those who want it all, and use their influence over social institutions to influence behavior verse everybody else. It’s part of the dueling perception or narratives that is emerging. With your perception, you are aligning with money power over the majority. So, you mine as well join the tea-party now;)

[Arraya]

[quote=briansd1]

Then was is the correct assessment of the situation in Greece and Spain?
[/quote]

Let me rephrase, again. That was so incredibly simplistic of an assessment to the point of being irrelevant to the bigger picture.

[quote=briansd1]
The way I see it that the PIGS, upon joining the Euro suddenly enjoyed higher purchasing and borrowing power and better standards of living, but they failed to reform and improve productivity.
[/quote]

Yes, if you join agree play by the dominant mafias rules you get more goodies. At least that was the plan. And who could turn it down. Even if the dominant set of rules was unsustainable, doomed to fail and systemically corrupt. And when the unsustainable rules blow up, the victims are demonized and the mafia gets it all. This was used across south america over the last few decades.

[quote=briansd1]
So now it’s time to pay back the debt.
[/quote]

No, it’s time to default on loans with predatory designs and bring the whole house of cards down. Lets step back and take a look at the big picture, which I tried to to with my lengthy post on population dynamics above. What we have here, IMO, is a systemically induced “crisis” (housing bubble) at the onset of a naturally induced crisis(peak oil) – which muddied the waters and, peak oil alone, would have set up a very similar dynamic(credit/banking crisis) without the housing bubble. My question is, did money power knowingly influence the housing bubble as to hide peak oil? What this essentially would do is get the population arguing over the “blame” much more so than just an oil shock induced crisis. As in, “look at all these greedy debtors that went crazy” rather than focusing elsewhere. And really, it’s irrelevant what the policy makes knew and how that influenced policy decisions. But, what is fact, is that we landed our troops on the most unexplored and possibly biggest oil reserves on the planet, simultaneously while blowing the biggest financial bubble of all time, all while approaching the onset of permanent world oil decline(which has been well studied by geo-strategic planners since the 90s and maybe as far back as the 60s).

[quote=briansd1]
The PIGS are not much different from American homeowners buying houses they couldn’t afford. Is that because of corruption on the bankers’ part, or is it because of gluttony on the part of the debtors (who wanted to consume more)?
[/quote]

They are not much different in their gullibility or corruption at the top of the pyramid where the politicians are in back pockets of money power sacrificing the citizens and behest of their lord mammon. Yes, many citizens took the bait, but I would be willing to bet their is more collateral damage than not. In addition, “gluttony” is a major driver of profits and economic growth. Debt based gluttony included. And even debt based gluttony that was defaulted on lined the pockets of a few – and still is.

[quote=briansd1]
There’s plenty of blame to go around.
[/quote]

Only in the unsustainable system which spawned it, though I will place slightly more blame at the top of the scam. The socially sophisticated and influencial ones that seem to be benefiting and concentrating wealth from the debacle.

If you step back a look at this, it is systemic across the whole world and concentrated in western states. It is a massive market failure primarily caused by politicians and bankers.

[quote=briansd1]
But demonstrating for a return to the easy money will not work. The citizens of the PIGS can overthrow their governments all they want, but civil unrest and anarchy will make things worse, not better.
[/quote]

Again, you seem to be a little hypocritical because the return of easy money is what you advocate and praise here. Second, if you think they are out there protesting for more stuff, you are extremely misguided. My hopes, is that it will spawn cascading bank and derivatives failure that will spread across europe and the US – just to get the show on the road. It’s coming regardless. The longer we drag it out the lizard bankers will get it all. Rather than a slow boil for humanity – I’d like to see them doused scalding how water as to awake from their slumber as not to be ushered into a feudalistic future.

[quote=briansd1]

Europe has a problem with too much debt and too few productive working people.[/quote]

What you are creating is a dialectic. Opposing forces which clash and create a new reality. The old, debtor’s tyranny over productive workers. The greedy debtors that want more verse the productive workers that live within their means and have to suffer. Viewing reality this way will skew your perception and form your allegiances. I think that is a false dialectic. It is, and has always been, money power verse the rest of humanity. Those who want it all, and use their influence over social institutions to influence behavior verse everybody else. It’s part of the dueling perception or narratives that is emerging. With your perception, you are aligning with money power over the majority. So, you mine as well join the tea-party now;)

[Arraya]

[quote=briansd1]

Then was is the correct assessment of the situation in Greece and Spain?
[/quote]

Let me rephrase, again. That was so incredibly simplistic of an assessment to the point of being irrelevant to the bigger picture.

[quote=briansd1]
The way I see it that the PIGS, upon joining the Euro suddenly enjoyed higher purchasing and borrowing power and better standards of living, but they failed to reform and improve productivity.
[/quote]

Yes, if you join agree play by the dominant mafias rules you get more goodies. At least that was the plan. And who could turn it down. Even if the dominant set of rules was unsustainable, doomed to fail and systemically corrupt. And when the unsustainable rules blow up, the victims are demonized and the mafia gets it all. This was used across south america over the last few decades.

[quote=briansd1]
So now it’s time to pay back the debt.
[/quote]

No, it’s time to default on loans with predatory designs and bring the whole house of cards down. Lets step back and take a look at the big picture, which I tried to to with my lengthy post on population dynamics above. What we have here, IMO, is a systemically induced “crisis” (housing bubble) at the onset of a naturally induced crisis(peak oil) – which muddied the waters and, peak oil alone, would have set up a very similar dynamic(credit/banking crisis) without the housing bubble. My question is, did money power knowingly influence the housing bubble as to hide peak oil? What this essentially would do is get the population arguing over the “blame” much more so than just an oil shock induced crisis. As in, “look at all these greedy debtors that went crazy” rather than focusing elsewhere. And really, it’s irrelevant what the policy makes knew and how that influenced policy decisions. But, what is fact, is that we landed our troops on the most unexplored and possibly biggest oil reserves on the planet, simultaneously while blowing the biggest financial bubble of all time, all while approaching the onset of permanent world oil decline(which has been well studied by geo-strategic planners since the 90s and maybe as far back as the 60s).

[quote=briansd1]
The PIGS are not much different from American homeowners buying houses they couldn’t afford. Is that because of corruption on the bankers’ part, or is it because of gluttony on the part of the debtors (who wanted to consume more)?
[/quote]

They are not much different in their gullibility or corruption at the top of the pyramid where the politicians are in back pockets of money power sacrificing the citizens and behest of their lord mammon. Yes, many citizens took the bait, but I would be willing to bet their is more collateral damage than not. In addition, “gluttony” is a major driver of profits and economic growth. Debt based gluttony included. And even debt based gluttony that was defaulted on lined the pockets of a few – and still is.

[quote=briansd1]
There’s plenty of blame to go around.
[/quote]

Only in the unsustainable system which spawned it, though I will place slightly more blame at the top of the scam. The socially sophisticated and influencial ones that seem to be benefiting and concentrating wealth from the debacle.

If you step back a look at this, it is systemic across the whole world and concentrated in western states. It is a massive market failure primarily caused by politicians and bankers.

[quote=briansd1]
But demonstrating for a return to the easy money will not work. The citizens of the PIGS can overthrow their governments all they want, but civil unrest and anarchy will make things worse, not better.
[/quote]

Again, you seem to be a little hypocritical because the return of easy money is what you advocate and praise here. Second, if you think they are out there protesting for more stuff, you are extremely misguided. My hopes, is that it will spawn cascading bank and derivatives failure that will spread across europe and the US – just to get the show on the road. It’s coming regardless. The longer we drag it out the lizard bankers will get it all. Rather than a slow boil for humanity – I’d like to see them doused scalding how water as to awake from their slumber as not to be ushered into a feudalistic future.

[quote=briansd1]

Europe has a problem with too much debt and too few productive working people.[/quote]

What you are creating is a dialectic. Opposing forces which clash and create a new reality. The old, debtor’s tyranny over productive workers. The greedy debtors that want more verse the productive workers that live within their means and have to suffer. Viewing reality this way will skew your perception and form your allegiances. I think that is a false dialectic. It is, and has always been, money power verse the rest of humanity. Those who want it all, and use their influence over social institutions to influence behavior verse everybody else. It’s part of the dueling perception or narratives that is emerging. With your perception, you are aligning with money power over the majority. So, you mine as well join the tea-party now;)

[patb]

[quote=Eugene]Nonsense. There’s no overshoot, we can feed 50 billion on this planet without breaking a sweat.

[quote]Now, what is even more interesting is juxtaposing the peak oil chart with the human population chart.[/quote]

Populations of Europe and North America got within 1/3 to 1/2 of current levels before oil even became an industrial commodity.[/quote]

True, and look at the conditions they lived in.

Horse drawn carriages of the 19th century littered London a foot deep in manure. Coal fires created killer smogs.

http://edugreen.teri.res.in/explore/air/smog.htm

“The first smog-related deaths were recorded in London in 1873, when it killed 500 people. In 1880, the toll was 2000. London had one of its worst experiences with smog in December 1892. It lasted for three days and resulted in about 1000 deaths. London became quite notorious for its smog. By the end of the 19th century, many people visited London to see the fog. Despite gradual improvements in air quality during the 20th century, another major smog occurred in London in December 1952. The Great London Smog lasted for five days and resulted in about 4000 more deaths than usual. In response to the Great London Smog, the government passed its first Clean Air Act in 1956, ”

yep those hippies may have had a point.

[patb]

[quote=Eugene]Nonsense. There’s no overshoot, we can feed 50 billion on this planet without breaking a sweat.

[quote]Now, what is even more interesting is juxtaposing the peak oil chart with the human population chart.[/quote]

Populations of Europe and North America got within 1/3 to 1/2 of current levels before oil even became an industrial commodity.[/quote]

True, and look at the conditions they lived in.

Horse drawn carriages of the 19th century littered London a foot deep in manure. Coal fires created killer smogs.

http://edugreen.teri.res.in/explore/air/smog.htm

“The first smog-related deaths were recorded in London in 1873, when it killed 500 people. In 1880, the toll was 2000. London had one of its worst experiences with smog in December 1892. It lasted for three days and resulted in about 1000 deaths. London became quite notorious for its smog. By the end of the 19th century, many people visited London to see the fog. Despite gradual improvements in air quality during the 20th century, another major smog occurred in London in December 1952. The Great London Smog lasted for five days and resulted in about 4000 more deaths than usual. In response to the Great London Smog, the government passed its first Clean Air Act in 1956, ”

yep those hippies may have had a point.

[patb]

[quote=Eugene]Nonsense. There’s no overshoot, we can feed 50 billion on this planet without breaking a sweat.

[quote]Now, what is even more interesting is juxtaposing the peak oil chart with the human population chart.[/quote]

Populations of Europe and North America got within 1/3 to 1/2 of current levels before oil even became an industrial commodity.[/quote]

True, and look at the conditions they lived in.

Horse drawn carriages of the 19th century littered London a foot deep in manure. Coal fires created killer smogs.

http://edugreen.teri.res.in/explore/air/smog.htm

“The first smog-related deaths were recorded in London in 1873, when it killed 500 people. In 1880, the toll was 2000. London had one of its worst experiences with smog in December 1892. It lasted for three days and resulted in about 1000 deaths. London became quite notorious for its smog. By the end of the 19th century, many people visited London to see the fog. Despite gradual improvements in air quality during the 20th century, another major smog occurred in London in December 1952. The Great London Smog lasted for five days and resulted in about 4000 more deaths than usual. In response to the Great London Smog, the government passed its first Clean Air Act in 1956, ”

yep those hippies may have had a point.

[patb]

[quote=Eugene]Nonsense. There’s no overshoot, we can feed 50 billion on this planet without breaking a sweat.

[quote]Now, what is even more interesting is juxtaposing the peak oil chart with the human population chart.[/quote]

Populations of Europe and North America got within 1/3 to 1/2 of current levels before oil even became an industrial commodity.[/quote]

True, and look at the conditions they lived in.

Horse drawn carriages of the 19th century littered London a foot deep in manure. Coal fires created killer smogs.

http://edugreen.teri.res.in/explore/air/smog.htm

“The first smog-related deaths were recorded in London in 1873, when it killed 500 people. In 1880, the toll was 2000. London had one of its worst experiences with smog in December 1892. It lasted for three days and resulted in about 1000 deaths. London became quite notorious for its smog. By the end of the 19th century, many people visited London to see the fog. Despite gradual improvements in air quality during the 20th century, another major smog occurred in London in December 1952. The Great London Smog lasted for five days and resulted in about 4000 more deaths than usual. In response to the Great London Smog, the government passed its first Clean Air Act in 1956, ”

yep those hippies may have had a point.

[patb]

[quote=Eugene]Nonsense. There’s no overshoot, we can feed 50 billion on this planet without breaking a sweat.

[quote]Now, what is even more interesting is juxtaposing the peak oil chart with the human population chart.[/quote]

Populations of Europe and North America got within 1/3 to 1/2 of current levels before oil even became an industrial commodity.[/quote]

True, and look at the conditions they lived in.

Horse drawn carriages of the 19th century littered London a foot deep in manure. Coal fires created killer smogs.

http://edugreen.teri.res.in/explore/air/smog.htm

“The first smog-related deaths were recorded in London in 1873, when it killed 500 people. In 1880, the toll was 2000. London had one of its worst experiences with smog in December 1892. It lasted for three days and resulted in about 1000 deaths. London became quite notorious for its smog. By the end of the 19th century, many people visited London to see the fog. Despite gradual improvements in air quality during the 20th century, another major smog occurred in London in December 1952. The Great London Smog lasted for five days and resulted in about 4000 more deaths than usual. In response to the Great London Smog, the government passed its first Clean Air Act in 1956, ”

yep those hippies may have had a point.

[patb]

[quote=Eugene]Nonsense. There’s no overshoot, we can feed 50 billion on this planet without breaking a sweat.

[quote]Now, what is even more interesting is juxtaposing the peak oil chart with the human population chart.[/quote]

Populations of Europe and North America got within 1/3 to 1/2 of current levels before oil even became an industrial commodity.[/quote]

True, and look at the conditions they lived in.

Horse drawn carriages of the 19th century littered London a foot deep in manure. Coal fires created killer smogs.

http://edugreen.teri.res.in/explore/air/smog.htm

“The first smog-related deaths were recorded in London in 1873, when it killed 500 people. In 1880, the toll was 2000. London had one of its worst experiences with smog in December 1892. It lasted for three days and resulted in about 1000 deaths. London became quite notorious for its smog. By the end of the 19th century, many people visited London to see the fog. Despite gradual improvements in air quality during the 20th century, another major smog occurred in London in December 1952. The Great London Smog lasted for five days and resulted in about 4000 more deaths than usual. In response to the Great London Smog, the government passed its first Clean Air Act in 1956, ”

yep those hippies may have had a point.

[patb]

[quote=Eugene]Nonsense. There’s no overshoot, we can feed 50 billion on this planet without breaking a sweat.

[quote]Now, what is even more interesting is juxtaposing the peak oil chart with the human population chart.[/quote]

Populations of Europe and North America got within 1/3 to 1/2 of current levels before oil even became an industrial commodity.[/quote]

True, and look at the conditions they lived in.

Horse drawn carriages of the 19th century littered London a foot deep in manure. Coal fires created killer smogs.

http://edugreen.teri.res.in/explore/air/smog.htm

“The first smog-related deaths were recorded in London in 1873, when it killed 500 people. In 1880, the toll was 2000. London had one of its worst experiences with smog in December 1892. It lasted for three days and resulted in about 1000 deaths. London became quite notorious for its smog. By the end of the 19th century, many people visited London to see the fog. Despite gradual improvements in air quality during the 20th century, another major smog occurred in London in December 1952. The Great London Smog lasted for five days and resulted in about 4000 more deaths than usual. In response to the Great London Smog, the government passed its first Clean Air Act in 1956, ”

yep those hippies may have had a point.

[patb]

[quote=Eugene]Nonsense. There’s no overshoot, we can feed 50 billion on this planet without breaking a sweat.

[quote]Now, what is even more interesting is juxtaposing the peak oil chart with the human population chart.[/quote]

Populations of Europe and North America got within 1/3 to 1/2 of current levels before oil even became an industrial commodity.[/quote]

True, and look at the conditions they lived in.

Horse drawn carriages of the 19th century littered London a foot deep in manure. Coal fires created killer smogs.

http://edugreen.teri.res.in/explore/air/smog.htm

“The first smog-related deaths were recorded in London in 1873, when it killed 500 people. In 1880, the toll was 2000. London had one of its worst experiences with smog in December 1892. It lasted for three days and resulted in about 1000 deaths. London became quite notorious for its smog. By the end of the 19th century, many people visited London to see the fog. Despite gradual improvements in air quality during the 20th century, another major smog occurred in London in December 1952. The Great London Smog lasted for five days and resulted in about 4000 more deaths than usual. In response to the Great London Smog, the government passed its first Clean Air Act in 1956, ”

yep those hippies may have had a point.

[patb]

[quote=Eugene]Nonsense. There’s no overshoot, we can feed 50 billion on this planet without breaking a sweat.

[quote]Now, what is even more interesting is juxtaposing the peak oil chart with the human population chart.[/quote]

Populations of Europe and North America got within 1/3 to 1/2 of current levels before oil even became an industrial commodity.[/quote]

True, and look at the conditions they lived in.

Horse drawn carriages of the 19th century littered London a foot deep in manure. Coal fires created killer smogs.

http://edugreen.teri.res.in/explore/air/smog.htm

“The first smog-related deaths were recorded in London in 1873, when it killed 500 people. In 1880, the toll was 2000. London had one of its worst experiences with smog in December 1892. It lasted for three days and resulted in about 1000 deaths. London became quite notorious for its smog. By the end of the 19th century, many people visited London to see the fog. Despite gradual improvements in air quality during the 20th century, another major smog occurred in London in December 1952. The Great London Smog lasted for five days and resulted in about 4000 more deaths than usual. In response to the Great London Smog, the government passed its first Clean Air Act in 1956, ”

yep those hippies may have had a point.

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