OT: Safety is an Illusion

[ucodegen]

[quote=CA renter]
From what I understand, he shot his way through the glass door at the front of the school.[/quote] Reference? I have been looking for how he got in. I have noticed that the story has changed several times.. including from him being normal, to possibly autistic/aspergers, withdrawn, had violent temper etc.. What gets me is the shooters lack of valuing life. Strange. It is almost like a sociopath.

[KIBU]

The cost of honoring gun ownership rights in our society is simply too much.

Crime, deaths, injuries, costs of police departments in an arm race, mass massacre, security costs, the rights of most Americans to feel safe and be safe, etc.

I think that we should among other things:

1. Put a very heavy tax on the purchases/transfer of gun (new and old) and amo. This is only fair so that the money pays back to the burden of the public and others who have to bear the consequences of guns on many aspect of our lives. Yes, there are many aspects of our lives affected by the presence of guns in our society.

2. Have gun owners get the required training and license and buy liability insurance just like operating a car (they always compare gun owning with car driving). They won’t like those, but we wouldn’t like any extra accidental death/mass massacre in our children school on the news either.

[ocrenter]

[quote=CA renter][quote=Blogstar]The argument about using AK 47’s to fight the government is ludicrous.[/quote]

Why? Do you really believe “it can’t happen here”?

No offense, but that’s incredibly naive.[/quote]

but to argue for the utility of semi-automatics in our society on that point is bordering on clinical paranoia.

[all]

[quote=ucodegen][quote=CA renter]
From what I understand, he shot his way through the glass door at the front of the school.[/quote] Reference? I have been looking for how he got in.[/quote]

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/americas/article3632863.ece

I support gun control. I like the reference SD R made – we get tested before they can buy a car, then we pay annual fee even if we don’t use the vehicle. Having something like that for guns seems fair to me. But in this particular case the guy could have hijacked a school bus and took it off a cliff.
On the other hand people are being beheaded 20 miles from San Diego and the countries south of the US are supposedly asking the US to stop being the enabler.

[desmond]

[quote=ocrenter][quote=CA renter][quote=Blogstar]The argument about using AK 47’s to fight the government is ludicrous.[/quote]

Why? Do you really believe “it can’t happen here”?

No offense, but that’s incredibly naive.[/quote]

but to argue for the utility of semi-automatics in our society on that point is bordering on clinical paranoia.[/quote]

oc,
Your continued arguements about the “semi-automatic” gun are just what the other side wants to hear. Do you realize that probably 95% of all guns sold today are semi-automatics? I was trying to help educate you. At least say “Assault Weapon”. Forget about Semi-Automatics & you will at least sound like you know what you are talking about……

[enron_by_the_sea]

[quote=ocrenter][quote=CA renter][quote=Blogstar]The argument about using AK 47’s to fight the government is ludicrous.[/quote]

Why? Do you really believe “it can’t happen here”?

No offense, but that’s incredibly naive.[/quote]

but to argue for the utility of semi-automatics in our society on that point is bordering on clinical paranoia.[/quote]

Am I the only one that finds it ironic that people cook up hypothetical scenarios where they need such weapons to protect their life & liberty. However their actions actually take lives and actually reduce liberty of everyone else in the real world.

I guess, protection life and liberty of your own, even in extremely unlikely scenario, takes precedence over the real world life and liberty of others!

[NotCranky]

Fertilizer, Now there is something you guys can fight the government with. It’s no longer easy to get bomb grade fertilizer. Where’s the pro liberty lobby on that one? I am sure some of our freedom fighters can answer that.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=enron_by_the_sea][quote=ocrenter][quote=CA renter][quote=Blogstar]The argument about using AK 47’s to fight the government is ludicrous.[/quote]

Why? Do you really believe “it can’t happen here”?

No offense, but that’s incredibly naive.[/quote]

but to argue for the utility of semi-automatics in our society on that point is bordering on clinical paranoia.[/quote]

Am I the only one that finds it ironic that people cook up hypothetical scenarios where they need such weapons to protect their life & liberty. However their actions actually take lives and actually reduce liberty of everyone else in the real world.

I guess, protection life and liberty of your own, even in extremely unlikely scenario, takes precedence over the real world life and liberty of others![/quote]

Enron: So my gun ownership “actually reduces the liberty of everyone else in the real world?”. How is that, exactly?

You’ve now tossed out two fairly hyperbolic postings, but haven’t offered up what your solution is, which underscores my point that this discussion is largely driven by emotion and not facts.

Do you favor a government-led comprehensive gun ban to “protect” your life and liberty, or do you have some other plan.

Details, please.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=Blogstar]Fertilizer, Now there is something you guys can fight the government with. It’s no longer easy to get bomb grade fertilizer. Where’s the pro liberty lobby on that one? I am sure some of our freedom fighters can answer that.[/quote]

Russ: Bomb grade fertilizer? WTH is that? I’m guessing you’re talking about an ANFO (ammonium nitrate and fuel oil) device, like McVeigh used in OK City in ’95.

Not sure what “bomb grade” is, though. Last time I checked, shit was shit.

[NotCranky]

[quote=enron_by_the_sea][quote=ocrenter][quote=CA renter][quote=Blogstar]The argument about using AK 47’s to fight the government is ludicrous.[/quote]

Why? Do you really believe “it can’t happen here”?

No offense, but that’s incredibly naive.[/quote]

but to argue for the utility of semi-automatics in our society on that point is bordering on clinical paranoia.[/quote]

Am I the only one that finds it ironic that people cook up hypothetical scenarios where they need such weapons to protect their life & liberty. However their actions actually take lives and actually reduce liberty of everyone else in the real world.

I guess, protection life and liberty of your own, even in extremely unlikely scenario, takes precedence over the real world life and liberty of others![/quote]

CArenter wants to be armed to fight the dissolution of public unions. That’s ironic.

When the government wants the guns the government will take most of them. What makes YOU think it will be different?

[sdduuuude]

Safety itself is not an illusion.

The illusion is thinking that certain things make you safe when they don’t.

One may feel that laws or guns or people to protect you make you safe. In actuality what makes you safe is a society in which people derive little or no benefit from harming others.

[NotCranky]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=Blogstar]Fertilizer, Now there is something you guys can fight the government with. It’s no longer easy to get bomb grade fertilizer. Where’s the pro liberty lobby on that one? I am sure some of our freedom fighters can answer that.[/quote]

Russ: Bomb grade fertilizer? WTH is that? I’m guessing you’re talking about an ANFO (ammonium nitrate and fuel oil) device, like McVeigh used in OK City in ’95.

Not sure what “bomb grade” is, though. Last time I checked, shit was shit.[/quote]

Are you busted playing semantics over getting the point….again?

[enron_by_the_sea]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

Enron: So my gun ownership “actually reduces the liberty of everyone else in the real world?”. How is that, exactly?

You’ve now tossed out two fairly hyperbolic postings, but haven’t offered up what your solution is, which underscores my point that this discussion is largely driven by emotion and not facts.

Do you favor a government-led comprehensive gun ban to “protect” your life and liberty, or do you have some other plan.

Details, please.[/quote]

Shouldn’t freedom and liberty in a civilized society include the ability of me and my family to go to a school/movie/shopping mall without worrying about a psycho obtaining a poorly controlled weapon that can kill crowds in seconds? Should your definition of a free society include metal detectors at every public place? Or a free and liberal society is the one where everyone including children is forced to buy and carry a firearm because everyone else does.

Or freedom and liberty are only reserved for people who are preparing for an apocalypse that probabaly will never come (and even if it did, they will find out that what they have is useless anyway.)

We do have now a concrete example of the freedom of the boy’s mother to own assault rifles for some zombie apocalypse actually resulting into deaths of many kids. So I am not sure how you call this hypothetical. It is real.

I don’t know about others, but I would rather give up on the society that prepares for apocalypse in order to live in a normal society. And I am not afraid to state it.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Enron: Again, I have no issue with restrictions on purchasing weapons, and there are laws/regulations on the books to prevent certain types of weapons, like fully automatic, along with screening potential problem purchasers (see ATF Form 4473).

Do I believe more could be done? Absolutely. Only 11 states have waiting periods. This should be nationwide. While the 4473 form requires info that’s turned over to NICS (a national criminal database), this could be tightened up as well.

The problem here is that you are only offering sweeping generalities. I’ve been a responsible gun owner my entire adult life and I will not voluntarily submit to my weapons being confiscated solely based on the whims of a hysterical electorate.

The only time I’ve used a weapon in anger has been at the direction of the US Government and in some actions that I’m not entirely sure were legal. My dad was a Marine veteran of WWII and Korea and believed in the adage, “Love your country, but fear your government.”

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=Blogstar][quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=Blogstar]Fertilizer, Now there is something you guys can fight the government with. It’s no longer easy to get bomb grade fertilizer. Where’s the pro liberty lobby on that one? I am sure some of our freedom fighters can answer that.[/quote]

Russ: Bomb grade fertilizer? WTH is that? I’m guessing you’re talking about an ANFO (ammonium nitrate and fuel oil) device, like McVeigh used in OK City in ’95.

Not sure what “bomb grade” is, though. Last time I checked, shit was shit.[/quote]

Are you busted playing semantics over getting the point….again?[/quote]

Russ: Oh, fer God’s sake, relax. I was pulling your twine.

But, seriously, what is bomb grade fertilizer?

[Author]

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