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paramount.
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December 17, 2012 at 1:14 PM #756466December 17, 2012 at 1:32 PM #756467
enron_by_the_sea
Participant[quote=meadandale]
The point, which is a valid one, is that making something illegal and hard to get doesn’t eliminate it from society, which seems to be the utopian goal here.
In fact, it will almost certainly cause an underground market to emerge and make criminals of many law abiding citizens. Hell, there already is a black market in guns for criminals. It will become quite a bit larger when that’s the only way to get a gun in the US.[/quote]
Just look at the facts of this case: Did the killer’s mom obtained the guns illegaly? NO.
Would she have obtained so many paramilitary grade weapons and high capacity magazines if they were banned? Probably NOT.
Would gun manufacturers sell these things on the internet if it was illegal? NO.
And even if criminals keep breaking the law and getting AK47s, there is no justification to allow everyone to buy AK47. It is still safer for the society to only have few % criminals keeping AK47s than the system we have now where every nutcase can get AK47 too!
One can not defend themselves with an AK47 from either the Gubbmmintt or another criminal who also also owns AK47. You can not hunt with AK47. AK47 is only good to kill innocent people in large numbers.
Why do these “innocent law abiding citizens” want to own AK47s?
P.S.: I am an “innocent law abiding citizen” too and I want to “responsibly own” a RPG launcher and a tank. Would you support my right to legally own it?
December 17, 2012 at 1:46 PM #756468desmond
ParticipantFor clarification:
Rifles or pistols can be Semiautomatic or Automatic
Semi-Automatic gun:
You must pull the trigger to fire one round (bullet), you then must then release the trigger and pull it again to fire the next round. (most semiautomatic guns will reload automatically but again you must pull the trigger to fire)
Automatic Gun: (Machine Gun)
You can pull the trigger and hold it and the gun will fire rounds (bullets) until you release the trigger.
All Automatic guns are ILLEGAL. Semi-automatic guns are legal. The “assault weapons used in these killings have been “Semi-Automatic”, but with technology these weapons can fire so fast by pulling the trigger quickly and the rounds (bullets) are so hi-powered they are deadly.
Semiautomatic guns can be converted to automatic but it is ILLEGAL and the ATF has a very high priority to stop possesion of Automatic Weapons.Another topic is “Capacity” of rounds (bullets) that these guns can hold. A seperate magazine (or clip) is used to hold rounds of ammunition. There are different sizes ranging from 10 bullets to 100 or so. Most regular purchases of magazines hold 10-15 rounds. An empty magazine can be discharged from a gun and another fully loaded magazine can be loaded in a second or two.
The kid used the 223 in the killings but had another Shotgun type assault weapon in the car.
December 17, 2012 at 2:17 PM #756470ocrenter
Participant[quote=meadandale][quote=enron_by_the_sea][quote=no_such_reality]
How’s that war on drugs been working out for the last thirty years?[/quote]
???
Looks like some lame attempt to steer the discussion somewhere else because you don’t like to hear bad things about NRA but unfortunately can not say anything positive in support of NRA either. Hoping that things will quiet down after a few days?[/quote]
The point, which is a valid one, is that making something illegal and hard to get doesn’t eliminate it from society, which seems to be the utopian goal here.
In fact, it will almost certainly cause an underground market to emerge and make criminals of many law abiding citizens. Hell, there already is a black market in guns for criminals. It will become quite a bit larger when that’s the only way to get a gun in the US.[/quote]
Yes, but right now you can just go down to Sears and Big 5 and get a semi-automatic rifle. Big 5 has two on sale, one for $250 and the other for $500. And who knows how many rounds of ammo you can get on-line.
Please explain to me why we need to have semi-automatics available for less than $500 at your local sporting goods store?
December 17, 2012 at 2:54 PM #756473Participantoc,
I see you have passion but you just do not understand guns, your questions lack sense. Not your fault, you probably have not been around guns (?). Read my post again for clarification. It really does not matter whether it is a rifle or a pistol, (the V. Tech guy used pistols) either gun can fire hi powered rounds so fast you would think it was an automatic. Small 10-15 round clips can be discharged and loaded that the shooting never stops. You are probably thinking about the Bolt-Action gun that requires repeated motions to shoot one bullet, they still make those for target shooting and hunting but the popularity for the Military type gun has skyrocketed. Banning certain guns will do nothing, there are just to many other type of guns with the same shooting power.
December 17, 2012 at 3:28 PM #756478Participant[quote=desmond]oc,
I see you have passion but you just do not understand guns, your questions lack sense. Not your fault, you probably have not been around guns (?). Read my post again for clarification. It really does not matter whether it is a rifle or a pistol, (the V. Tech guy used pistols) either gun can fire hi powered rounds so fast you would think it was an automatic. Small 10-15 round clips can be discharged and loaded that the shooting never stops. You are probably thinking about the Bolt-Action gun that requires repeated motions to shoot one bullet, they still make those for target shooting and hunting but the popularity for the Military type gun has skyrocketed. Banning certain guns will do nothing, there are just to many other type of guns with the same shooting power.[/quote]
I am sure there are ways to accomplish this. You don’t need to be around guns to understand it in the same way as you don’t need to be a doctor to figure out that you are ill -or you don’t need to be a Ph.D. mechanical engineering to change oil in your car
Basic common sense should tell you what should be banned and it is law-makers job to put that common sense in a legislation. If you don’t like what is currently defined as assault weapon, I am sure someone can modify the definition.
To me all this seems like whining to not address the issue.
besides there are other issues to address too.
1) Why should things be freely sold on the internet?
2) Why does NRA oppose electronic database of guns?
3) Why should NRA oppose liability for gun manufacturers and owners?
4) Why should there not be a cooling off period for buying guns?
5) What is the need for high capacity magazines?December 17, 2012 at 3:38 PM #756479no_such_reality
ParticipantBasic common sense says a kid(sic) doesn’t kill his mom, take the guns and go slaughter an elementary school.
Okay, let’s quite saying kid, he’s no kid, he was 20.
Sadly, Morgan is right.
December 17, 2012 at 3:44 PM #756480Participant[quote=no_such_reality]Basic common sense says a kid(sic) doesn’t kill his mom, take the guns and go slaughter an elementary school.
Okay, let’s quite saying kid, he’s no kid, he was 20.
Sadly, Morgan is right.[/quote]
Basic common sense also says that if you make a weapon capable of mass killings, which has no other realistic use, widely available to masses; only because you believe in a dogma; – bad outcomes will result!
December 17, 2012 at 3:52 PM #756482Participant[quote=enron_by_the_sea][quote=no_such_reality]Basic common sense says a kid(sic) doesn’t kill his mom, take the guns and go slaughter an elementary school.
Okay, let’s quite saying kid, he’s no kid, he was 20.
Sadly, Morgan is right.[/quote]
Basic common sense also says that if you make a weapon capable of mass killings, which has no other realistic use, widely available to masses; only because you believe in a dogma; – bad outcomes will result![/quote]
And history shows an unarmed populace is the next chump.
Or we can just get really draconian and realize the masses are incapable of properly using their car and cell phone so one or the other must go.
December 17, 2012 at 3:59 PM #756483Participant[quote=no_such_reality]
And history shows an unarmed populace is the next chump.[/quote]
We are not talking disarmament here. Just about whether AK47 style weapons, unregistered, freely sold over internet and high capacity magazines etc. are truly contributing to our liberty.
There is no example in history of mass population brandishing AK47s – other than perhaps Afghanistan.
I won’t Say Afghanistan is much to aspire for in terms of liberty …On the other hand many examples exist of free countries with lightly armed populace.
My conclusion: Liberty comes from culture, not from the barrel of a gun!
[quote=no_such_reality]
Or we can just get really draconian and realize the masses are incapable of properly using their car and cell phone so one or the other must go.
[/quote]You brought this up.
Do you realize that if we were as strict about guns as we are currently about cars we would ask all aspiring gun owners to
1) take a physical & mental test for the privilage
2) Everyone would need to get a license that says “gun ownership is a privilage not a right.
3) All gun owners will have to register their guns
4) All guns owners will have to carry liability insuranceSo not a good idea to compare cars and guns
December 17, 2012 at 4:08 PM #756485ParticipantYep all that serious restraint on cars doesn’t really prevent people from being idiots and texting while driving does it?
It’s a very slippery slope to base what the general population can or cannot do on what an obviously mentally deranged person did do.
December 17, 2012 at 4:14 PM #756486Participant[quote=no_such_reality]
It’s a very slippery slope to base what the general population can or cannot do on what an obviously mentally deranged person might did do.[/quote]
We do this all the time.
For example,
An idiot drank alcohol and caused a crash at 0.08 BAC level.Most people can drive just fine at that level. The idiot causing the accident should certainly have known that he was not in a state to drive in the first place…But here we are controlling what a general population can or cannot do based on what that idiot did.
I went to CVS yesterday and bought Sudafed. The cashier took down my name ID because some idiot somewhere cooks meth with Sudafed.
Am I happy that govt. is keeping track of how much Sudafed I buy? Absolutely not! But that’s how the system works. Why should guns be special?
December 17, 2012 at 4:16 PM #756487zzz
ParticipantI dont think the argument should be that criminals can get guns anyhow so lets not bother with trying to fix this. There will always be a way to obtain anything illegally with enough money. This isn’t up for debate.
I’m not saying there are fail safe solution, and we certainly cannot eliminate gun violence, but I do believe we can reduce gun violence.
The nutjobs doing the mass killings are often not criminals, no priors. they are nutjobs who can easily gain access to guns in America, what if it were not so easy? Frankly, Im not so concerned about the criminals shooting each other up. Are there criminals who shoot innocent citizens and can readily obtain guns even with stringent gun laws in place? Sure. But I think what the issue is that we have extremely lax regulation on guns and its easier to buy a gun than do a lot of things in this country.
Im all for the right to bear arms, but what is wrong with imposing a 30 day waiting limit? Might that deter some of the passion / momentary crazy killings out there? What is wrong with asking for a background check? I think its entirely appropriate to compare driving to guns in the context of regulations and national safety. You can’t get your drivers license back if you have too many DUIs, why do we make it so easy to get a gun? Why dont we require gun safety courses, or if you have children under the age of 18, you’re required to purchase a gun lock? We have to pass driving tests to drive, why not have requirements to own a gun? Surely making obtaining guns harder, and educating people who do own guns so their 5 yr old doesn’t accidentally blow his kid sister’s brains out doesn’t seem like a stretch does it?
The stats seem to show in other countries that some level of regulation works.
Also, there are many articles and blogs on this currently, but I agree with other posters, that the other issue that has to be addressed include how we treat mental health issues- or the lack of options for severely disturbed children and people ( varies by state), and 2, how much we overmedicate in this country, startign with children who have sensitive developing brains and chemical makeups, or the failure to properly diagnose children/ or it being easier throw some pills that can make kids and people crazy, suicidal, or murderous.
December 17, 2012 at 4:34 PM #756488all
ParticipantWe will soon be able to (3D) print our own guns.
Gun enthusiasts release open-source kits for 3D-printed Wiki Weapons
December 17, 2012 at 5:26 PM #756492ucodegen
Participant[quote=enron_by_the_sea]My conclusion: Liberty comes from culture, not from the barrel of a gun![/quote]History disagrees with you.. as well as Mao Zedong..
political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. – Mao Zedong
That is in part why they are banned from the public in China. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_ownership_law_in_China
The Nazi(s) in Germany instituted strict gun control before they started to purge the Jews. When the populace found out what was happening, they could no longer oppose Hitler. Beside, initially everything was “good” for the Germans under Hitler.. except for the Jews which were completely banned from owning firearms.
There are several more examples of where strict gun control was instituted.. and short, within 10 to 20 years, a despot gains power and the people are not able to stop them.
History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subjected peoples to carry arms have prepared their own fall. – Adolf Hitler
Our main agenda is to have ALL guns banned. We must use whatever means possible. It doesn’t matter if you have to distort facts or even lie. Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed when those who would resist us have been totally disarmed. – Sarah Brady
Note: On this last one, there are claims that the statement is not true.. but remember that Sarah Brady is associated with the Brady Center, and has taken no effort to refute it. There are other quotes from her along the same lines.
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