OT- More Government Control

[Ricechex]

Zeitgeist and ScaredyCat…please stop this bickering. It is superficial and throwing jabs when none is due. I think references comparing anyone to Hitler are not valid, I have heard Jews (yes Jews) in my workplace refer to a boss as “Hitler.” Not cute. “Hitler” has come to mean, “people that are bad and controlling and cause you grief.” People referred to GW as a Hitler. Yeah, he was bad, as most politicians, but he certainly was not Hitler. It is just silly ignorance IMO. The true Hitler in our world is NOT a single man, it is an entire group of men comprising banks, corporations and government. Many are complicit in this scheme, there are too many to name one, and thus very difficult to infiltrate and overthrow. Our villain is not easily identifiable.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

Dan: Couple of other things: (1) Militarily, we did win Vietnam. Inarguable fact in that US forces never lost a single major battle in the entire war. Vietnam was lost on the home front, not on the battle field. If you read an objective military history on Vietnam (i.e. NOTHING written by Karnow or Halberstam), you’ll realize that the Viet Cong was destroyed as an effective fighting force during the Tet Offensive of 1968 (a clear cut American victory and one that Walter Cronkite, among other American newsman, cast as an American defeat) and the North Vietnamese Army wasn’t able to mount effective operations in the field until 1972 (nearly four years later).

(2) The US Government is listening to its citizens and on a daily basis. Yes, its wonderful that the warrantless wiretapping issue has been dealt with, but what about listening programs like NSA’s Echelon and Carnivore, or SAIC’s adaptive listening software (which has helped us track down foreign al Qaeda operatives, but has been used domestically as well).

Before you start making accusations as to me stooping to some new low, read what I said and then comment accordingly.

Cheers.[/quote]

Re Vietnam:
Like I said, there is a grain of truth in everything you said.
However, there is no sane historian that will describe our victories in southeast Asia as anything but Pyrrhic. Our allies were routed and in the end we left the country to the reds.
We were grist in the mill of a military paradigm shift. Pre-19th century style total war is something we were not ready for there and (as Gorby said) history punishes those who arrive too late.
“Viet Cong” is just a slur of vietnamese communist.
Today, this minute, as we type, ARVN troops live in Mira Mesa and Vietnamese communists live in government mansions in Saigon (which they call Ho Chi Minh City). The PRG did not die at the hands of the US military. It was merged with the North after the fall of Saigon. We left because we failed and our allies were crushed. Badly. Unwillingness to admit this puts you in Cheneyland and in need of thorazine.

Regarding Carnivore and Echelon:
I don’t give a fuck. I suppose that could change, however, if I get an email from the NSA telling me to stop torrenting Transformers or WinXP. However, that would likely mean the end of the program. Which is likely why that generally does not happen.

I don’t like American citizens being arrested for “planning” (read not acting upon) Jihad but I really don’t fret too much about the civil liberties of the guy who is stocking up on weapons and explosives.

Most importantly, we have very specific areas of confidentiality drawn out in this country. It is generally acknowledged that email is not one of those (though phone is). Wiretapping offends me but carnivore does not so much.

Re Nazis:
Yeah, I think that comparing the Obama administration to the Hitler administration is a new low. Sorry dude, it is beneath your usual level of discourse.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

Dan: Couple of other things: (1) Militarily, we did win Vietnam. Inarguable fact in that US forces never lost a single major battle in the entire war. Vietnam was lost on the home front, not on the battle field. If you read an objective military history on Vietnam (i.e. NOTHING written by Karnow or Halberstam), you’ll realize that the Viet Cong was destroyed as an effective fighting force during the Tet Offensive of 1968 (a clear cut American victory and one that Walter Cronkite, among other American newsman, cast as an American defeat) and the North Vietnamese Army wasn’t able to mount effective operations in the field until 1972 (nearly four years later).

(2) The US Government is listening to its citizens and on a daily basis. Yes, its wonderful that the warrantless wiretapping issue has been dealt with, but what about listening programs like NSA’s Echelon and Carnivore, or SAIC’s adaptive listening software (which has helped us track down foreign al Qaeda operatives, but has been used domestically as well).

Before you start making accusations as to me stooping to some new low, read what I said and then comment accordingly.

Cheers.[/quote]

Re Vietnam:
Like I said, there is a grain of truth in everything you said.
However, there is no sane historian that will describe our victories in southeast Asia as anything but Pyrrhic. Our allies were routed and in the end we left the country to the reds.
We were grist in the mill of a military paradigm shift. Pre-19th century style total war is something we were not ready for there and (as Gorby said) history punishes those who arrive too late.
“Viet Cong” is just a slur of vietnamese communist.
Today, this minute, as we type, ARVN troops live in Mira Mesa and Vietnamese communists live in government mansions in Saigon (which they call Ho Chi Minh City). The PRG did not die at the hands of the US military. It was merged with the North after the fall of Saigon. We left because we failed and our allies were crushed. Badly. Unwillingness to admit this puts you in Cheneyland and in need of thorazine.

Regarding Carnivore and Echelon:
I don’t give a fuck. I suppose that could change, however, if I get an email from the NSA telling me to stop torrenting Transformers or WinXP. However, that would likely mean the end of the program. Which is likely why that generally does not happen.

I don’t like American citizens being arrested for “planning” (read not acting upon) Jihad but I really don’t fret too much about the civil liberties of the guy who is stocking up on weapons and explosives.

Most importantly, we have very specific areas of confidentiality drawn out in this country. It is generally acknowledged that email is not one of those (though phone is). Wiretapping offends me but carnivore does not so much.

Re Nazis:
Yeah, I think that comparing the Obama administration to the Hitler administration is a new low. Sorry dude, it is beneath your usual level of discourse.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

Dan: Couple of other things: (1) Militarily, we did win Vietnam. Inarguable fact in that US forces never lost a single major battle in the entire war. Vietnam was lost on the home front, not on the battle field. If you read an objective military history on Vietnam (i.e. NOTHING written by Karnow or Halberstam), you’ll realize that the Viet Cong was destroyed as an effective fighting force during the Tet Offensive of 1968 (a clear cut American victory and one that Walter Cronkite, among other American newsman, cast as an American defeat) and the North Vietnamese Army wasn’t able to mount effective operations in the field until 1972 (nearly four years later).

(2) The US Government is listening to its citizens and on a daily basis. Yes, its wonderful that the warrantless wiretapping issue has been dealt with, but what about listening programs like NSA’s Echelon and Carnivore, or SAIC’s adaptive listening software (which has helped us track down foreign al Qaeda operatives, but has been used domestically as well).

Before you start making accusations as to me stooping to some new low, read what I said and then comment accordingly.

Cheers.[/quote]

Re Vietnam:
Like I said, there is a grain of truth in everything you said.
However, there is no sane historian that will describe our victories in southeast Asia as anything but Pyrrhic. Our allies were routed and in the end we left the country to the reds.
We were grist in the mill of a military paradigm shift. Pre-19th century style total war is something we were not ready for there and (as Gorby said) history punishes those who arrive too late.
“Viet Cong” is just a slur of vietnamese communist.
Today, this minute, as we type, ARVN troops live in Mira Mesa and Vietnamese communists live in government mansions in Saigon (which they call Ho Chi Minh City). The PRG did not die at the hands of the US military. It was merged with the North after the fall of Saigon. We left because we failed and our allies were crushed. Badly. Unwillingness to admit this puts you in Cheneyland and in need of thorazine.

Regarding Carnivore and Echelon:
I don’t give a fuck. I suppose that could change, however, if I get an email from the NSA telling me to stop torrenting Transformers or WinXP. However, that would likely mean the end of the program. Which is likely why that generally does not happen.

I don’t like American citizens being arrested for “planning” (read not acting upon) Jihad but I really don’t fret too much about the civil liberties of the guy who is stocking up on weapons and explosives.

Most importantly, we have very specific areas of confidentiality drawn out in this country. It is generally acknowledged that email is not one of those (though phone is). Wiretapping offends me but carnivore does not so much.

Re Nazis:
Yeah, I think that comparing the Obama administration to the Hitler administration is a new low. Sorry dude, it is beneath your usual level of discourse.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

Dan: Couple of other things: (1) Militarily, we did win Vietnam. Inarguable fact in that US forces never lost a single major battle in the entire war. Vietnam was lost on the home front, not on the battle field. If you read an objective military history on Vietnam (i.e. NOTHING written by Karnow or Halberstam), you’ll realize that the Viet Cong was destroyed as an effective fighting force during the Tet Offensive of 1968 (a clear cut American victory and one that Walter Cronkite, among other American newsman, cast as an American defeat) and the North Vietnamese Army wasn’t able to mount effective operations in the field until 1972 (nearly four years later).

(2) The US Government is listening to its citizens and on a daily basis. Yes, its wonderful that the warrantless wiretapping issue has been dealt with, but what about listening programs like NSA’s Echelon and Carnivore, or SAIC’s adaptive listening software (which has helped us track down foreign al Qaeda operatives, but has been used domestically as well).

Before you start making accusations as to me stooping to some new low, read what I said and then comment accordingly.

Cheers.[/quote]

Re Vietnam:
Like I said, there is a grain of truth in everything you said.
However, there is no sane historian that will describe our victories in southeast Asia as anything but Pyrrhic. Our allies were routed and in the end we left the country to the reds.
We were grist in the mill of a military paradigm shift. Pre-19th century style total war is something we were not ready for there and (as Gorby said) history punishes those who arrive too late.
“Viet Cong” is just a slur of vietnamese communist.
Today, this minute, as we type, ARVN troops live in Mira Mesa and Vietnamese communists live in government mansions in Saigon (which they call Ho Chi Minh City). The PRG did not die at the hands of the US military. It was merged with the North after the fall of Saigon. We left because we failed and our allies were crushed. Badly. Unwillingness to admit this puts you in Cheneyland and in need of thorazine.

Regarding Carnivore and Echelon:
I don’t give a fuck. I suppose that could change, however, if I get an email from the NSA telling me to stop torrenting Transformers or WinXP. However, that would likely mean the end of the program. Which is likely why that generally does not happen.

I don’t like American citizens being arrested for “planning” (read not acting upon) Jihad but I really don’t fret too much about the civil liberties of the guy who is stocking up on weapons and explosives.

Most importantly, we have very specific areas of confidentiality drawn out in this country. It is generally acknowledged that email is not one of those (though phone is). Wiretapping offends me but carnivore does not so much.

Re Nazis:
Yeah, I think that comparing the Obama administration to the Hitler administration is a new low. Sorry dude, it is beneath your usual level of discourse.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

Dan: Couple of other things: (1) Militarily, we did win Vietnam. Inarguable fact in that US forces never lost a single major battle in the entire war. Vietnam was lost on the home front, not on the battle field. If you read an objective military history on Vietnam (i.e. NOTHING written by Karnow or Halberstam), you’ll realize that the Viet Cong was destroyed as an effective fighting force during the Tet Offensive of 1968 (a clear cut American victory and one that Walter Cronkite, among other American newsman, cast as an American defeat) and the North Vietnamese Army wasn’t able to mount effective operations in the field until 1972 (nearly four years later).

(2) The US Government is listening to its citizens and on a daily basis. Yes, its wonderful that the warrantless wiretapping issue has been dealt with, but what about listening programs like NSA’s Echelon and Carnivore, or SAIC’s adaptive listening software (which has helped us track down foreign al Qaeda operatives, but has been used domestically as well).

Before you start making accusations as to me stooping to some new low, read what I said and then comment accordingly.

Cheers.[/quote]

Re Vietnam:
Like I said, there is a grain of truth in everything you said.
However, there is no sane historian that will describe our victories in southeast Asia as anything but Pyrrhic. Our allies were routed and in the end we left the country to the reds.
We were grist in the mill of a military paradigm shift. Pre-19th century style total war is something we were not ready for there and (as Gorby said) history punishes those who arrive too late.
“Viet Cong” is just a slur of vietnamese communist.
Today, this minute, as we type, ARVN troops live in Mira Mesa and Vietnamese communists live in government mansions in Saigon (which they call Ho Chi Minh City). The PRG did not die at the hands of the US military. It was merged with the North after the fall of Saigon. We left because we failed and our allies were crushed. Badly. Unwillingness to admit this puts you in Cheneyland and in need of thorazine.

Regarding Carnivore and Echelon:
I don’t give a fuck. I suppose that could change, however, if I get an email from the NSA telling me to stop torrenting Transformers or WinXP. However, that would likely mean the end of the program. Which is likely why that generally does not happen.

I don’t like American citizens being arrested for “planning” (read not acting upon) Jihad but I really don’t fret too much about the civil liberties of the guy who is stocking up on weapons and explosives.

Most importantly, we have very specific areas of confidentiality drawn out in this country. It is generally acknowledged that email is not one of those (though phone is). Wiretapping offends me but carnivore does not so much.

Re Nazis:
Yeah, I think that comparing the Obama administration to the Hitler administration is a new low. Sorry dude, it is beneath your usual level of discourse.

[Zeitgeist]

Rice,

I accede to your suggestion. You are a true moderator. However, he not only insulted my ancestry, he insulted my intelligence. My family can be traced to Joseph of Arimathea. I do not appreciate being defamed by a poseur. I was using the Hitler analogy to describe the errosion of basic fundamental rights in Germany that were taken by an elected leader. There are many similarities to the proposed Health Care Bill, particularly in the area of mitigating costs by not performing life saving procedures on people over a certain age. First the old people, then the disabled, then the mentally ill …. You get my point. All despots have one thing in common and that is power and more power. It is important that people are not blinded by their political loyalty and look at the consequences of some of the proposals. As was mentioned elsewhere, if Bush was the originator of the bill what would the response be? Because Obama wants something does not make it right. He is still the learning the ropes.

[Zeitgeist]

Rice,

I accede to your suggestion. You are a true moderator. However, he not only insulted my ancestry, he insulted my intelligence. My family can be traced to Joseph of Arimathea. I do not appreciate being defamed by a poseur. I was using the Hitler analogy to describe the errosion of basic fundamental rights in Germany that were taken by an elected leader. There are many similarities to the proposed Health Care Bill, particularly in the area of mitigating costs by not performing life saving procedures on people over a certain age. First the old people, then the disabled, then the mentally ill …. You get my point. All despots have one thing in common and that is power and more power. It is important that people are not blinded by their political loyalty and look at the consequences of some of the proposals. As was mentioned elsewhere, if Bush was the originator of the bill what would the response be? Because Obama wants something does not make it right. He is still the learning the ropes.

[Zeitgeist]

Rice,

I accede to your suggestion. You are a true moderator. However, he not only insulted my ancestry, he insulted my intelligence. My family can be traced to Joseph of Arimathea. I do not appreciate being defamed by a poseur. I was using the Hitler analogy to describe the errosion of basic fundamental rights in Germany that were taken by an elected leader. There are many similarities to the proposed Health Care Bill, particularly in the area of mitigating costs by not performing life saving procedures on people over a certain age. First the old people, then the disabled, then the mentally ill …. You get my point. All despots have one thing in common and that is power and more power. It is important that people are not blinded by their political loyalty and look at the consequences of some of the proposals. As was mentioned elsewhere, if Bush was the originator of the bill what would the response be? Because Obama wants something does not make it right. He is still the learning the ropes.

[Zeitgeist]

Rice,

I accede to your suggestion. You are a true moderator. However, he not only insulted my ancestry, he insulted my intelligence. My family can be traced to Joseph of Arimathea. I do not appreciate being defamed by a poseur. I was using the Hitler analogy to describe the errosion of basic fundamental rights in Germany that were taken by an elected leader. There are many similarities to the proposed Health Care Bill, particularly in the area of mitigating costs by not performing life saving procedures on people over a certain age. First the old people, then the disabled, then the mentally ill …. You get my point. All despots have one thing in common and that is power and more power. It is important that people are not blinded by their political loyalty and look at the consequences of some of the proposals. As was mentioned elsewhere, if Bush was the originator of the bill what would the response be? Because Obama wants something does not make it right. He is still the learning the ropes.

[Zeitgeist]

Rice,

I accede to your suggestion. You are a true moderator. However, he not only insulted my ancestry, he insulted my intelligence. My family can be traced to Joseph of Arimathea. I do not appreciate being defamed by a poseur. I was using the Hitler analogy to describe the errosion of basic fundamental rights in Germany that were taken by an elected leader. There are many similarities to the proposed Health Care Bill, particularly in the area of mitigating costs by not performing life saving procedures on people over a certain age. First the old people, then the disabled, then the mentally ill …. You get my point. All despots have one thing in common and that is power and more power. It is important that people are not blinded by their political loyalty and look at the consequences of some of the proposals. As was mentioned elsewhere, if Bush was the originator of the bill what would the response be? Because Obama wants something does not make it right. He is still the learning the ropes.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=urbanrealtor][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

Dan: Couple of other things: (1) Militarily, we did win Vietnam. Inarguable fact in that US forces never lost a single major battle in the entire war. Vietnam was lost on the home front, not on the battle field. If you read an objective military history on Vietnam (i.e. NOTHING written by Karnow or Halberstam), you’ll realize that the Viet Cong was destroyed as an effective fighting force during the Tet Offensive of 1968 (a clear cut American victory and one that Walter Cronkite, among other American newsman, cast as an American defeat) and the North Vietnamese Army wasn’t able to mount effective operations in the field until 1972 (nearly four years later).

(2) The US Government is listening to its citizens and on a daily basis. Yes, its wonderful that the warrantless wiretapping issue has been dealt with, but what about listening programs like NSA’s Echelon and Carnivore, or SAIC’s adaptive listening software (which has helped us track down foreign al Qaeda operatives, but has been used domestically as well).

Before you start making accusations as to me stooping to some new low, read what I said and then comment accordingly.

Cheers.[/quote]

Re Vietnam:
Like I said, there is a grain of truth in everything you said.
However, there is no sane historian that will describe our victories in southeast Asia as anything but Pyrrhic. Our allies were routed and in the end we left the country to the reds.
We were grist in the mill of a military paradigm shift. Pre-19th century style total war is something we were not ready for there and (as Gorby said) history punishes those who arrive too late.
“Viet Cong” is just a slur of vietnamese communist.
Today, this minute, as we type, ARVN troops live in Mira Mesa and Vietnamese communists live in government mansions in Saigon (which they call Ho Chi Minh City). The PRG did not die at the hands of the US military. It was merged with the North after the fall of Saigon. We left because we failed and our allies were crushed. Badly. Unwillingness to admit this puts you in Cheneyland and in need of thorazine.

Regarding Carnivore and Echelon:
I don’t give a fuck. I suppose that could change, however, if I get an email from the NSA telling me to stop torrenting Transformers or WinXP. However, that would likely mean the end of the program. Which is likely why that generally does not happen.

I don’t like American citizens being arrested for “planning” (read not acting upon) Jihad but I really don’t fret too much about the civil liberties of the guy who is stocking up on weapons and explosives.

Most importantly, we have very specific areas of confidentiality drawn out in this country. It is generally acknowledged that email is not one of those (though phone is). Wiretapping offends me but carnivore does not so much.

Re Nazis:
Yeah, I think that comparing the Obama administration to the Hitler administration is a new low. Sorry dude, it is beneath your usual level of discourse.[/quote]

Dan: Wow. Again, read what I wrote and then comment. You are so completely missing my point it’s now almost frightening.

I did NOT compare the Obama Administration to Hitler’s government. Nope, not at all.

However, what I did say is that we have seen an erosion, over the last 30+ years, of our civil liberties and condoned/aided/abetted by Democrats and Republicans alike.

I also said that the slide to Nazism is not nearly as extreme as one might imagine and I used Sinclair Lewis’ “It Can’t Happen Here” as a writing that describes this.

At NO point did I ever conflate Obama and Hitler and if you truly feel that I did, well, then you need to put the malt liquor down and allow your hop-addled pate to clear.

As to Vietnam: Hence my use of the words “objective” and “military” history. As to Viet Cong being a “slur”: Not at all. For precision’s sake I could use NLF (National Liberation Front), but I happened to work with a 50 year old former VC Major named Danny Nguyen during my time in the Army and he referred to himself as Viet Cong. His older brother, who fought the Japanese and died fighting the French, he referred to as Viet Minh. All due respect, I’ll defer to someone who was actually in the Viet Cong when it comes to proper nomenclature, thank you very much.

The actions of the US Congress during the period 1973 – 1975 are well documented and your contention regarding our allies has no basis in truth or reality. You should look to the Arab-Israeli War of 1973 (“The Yom Kippur War”) and ask yourself what would have happened to Israel if the US hadn’t airlifted in massive amounts of war materiel and ammunition to support them against the Arab nations. It’s exactly analogous to the plight of South Vietnam and their fight against the North.

For someone who is ostensibly fairly liberal or “lightly” leftist in their leanings, you seem oddly unworried about government intrusions into our civil liberties. This devil-may-care attitude towards programs like Echelon and Carnivore is strange, to say the least, and I can only ascribe it to ignorance as to the actual program workings.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=urbanrealtor][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

Dan: Couple of other things: (1) Militarily, we did win Vietnam. Inarguable fact in that US forces never lost a single major battle in the entire war. Vietnam was lost on the home front, not on the battle field. If you read an objective military history on Vietnam (i.e. NOTHING written by Karnow or Halberstam), you’ll realize that the Viet Cong was destroyed as an effective fighting force during the Tet Offensive of 1968 (a clear cut American victory and one that Walter Cronkite, among other American newsman, cast as an American defeat) and the North Vietnamese Army wasn’t able to mount effective operations in the field until 1972 (nearly four years later).

(2) The US Government is listening to its citizens and on a daily basis. Yes, its wonderful that the warrantless wiretapping issue has been dealt with, but what about listening programs like NSA’s Echelon and Carnivore, or SAIC’s adaptive listening software (which has helped us track down foreign al Qaeda operatives, but has been used domestically as well).

Before you start making accusations as to me stooping to some new low, read what I said and then comment accordingly.

Cheers.[/quote]

Re Vietnam:
Like I said, there is a grain of truth in everything you said.
However, there is no sane historian that will describe our victories in southeast Asia as anything but Pyrrhic. Our allies were routed and in the end we left the country to the reds.
We were grist in the mill of a military paradigm shift. Pre-19th century style total war is something we were not ready for there and (as Gorby said) history punishes those who arrive too late.
“Viet Cong” is just a slur of vietnamese communist.
Today, this minute, as we type, ARVN troops live in Mira Mesa and Vietnamese communists live in government mansions in Saigon (which they call Ho Chi Minh City). The PRG did not die at the hands of the US military. It was merged with the North after the fall of Saigon. We left because we failed and our allies were crushed. Badly. Unwillingness to admit this puts you in Cheneyland and in need of thorazine.

Regarding Carnivore and Echelon:
I don’t give a fuck. I suppose that could change, however, if I get an email from the NSA telling me to stop torrenting Transformers or WinXP. However, that would likely mean the end of the program. Which is likely why that generally does not happen.

I don’t like American citizens being arrested for “planning” (read not acting upon) Jihad but I really don’t fret too much about the civil liberties of the guy who is stocking up on weapons and explosives.

Most importantly, we have very specific areas of confidentiality drawn out in this country. It is generally acknowledged that email is not one of those (though phone is). Wiretapping offends me but carnivore does not so much.

Re Nazis:
Yeah, I think that comparing the Obama administration to the Hitler administration is a new low. Sorry dude, it is beneath your usual level of discourse.[/quote]

Dan: Wow. Again, read what I wrote and then comment. You are so completely missing my point it’s now almost frightening.

I did NOT compare the Obama Administration to Hitler’s government. Nope, not at all.

However, what I did say is that we have seen an erosion, over the last 30+ years, of our civil liberties and condoned/aided/abetted by Democrats and Republicans alike.

I also said that the slide to Nazism is not nearly as extreme as one might imagine and I used Sinclair Lewis’ “It Can’t Happen Here” as a writing that describes this.

At NO point did I ever conflate Obama and Hitler and if you truly feel that I did, well, then you need to put the malt liquor down and allow your hop-addled pate to clear.

As to Vietnam: Hence my use of the words “objective” and “military” history. As to Viet Cong being a “slur”: Not at all. For precision’s sake I could use NLF (National Liberation Front), but I happened to work with a 50 year old former VC Major named Danny Nguyen during my time in the Army and he referred to himself as Viet Cong. His older brother, who fought the Japanese and died fighting the French, he referred to as Viet Minh. All due respect, I’ll defer to someone who was actually in the Viet Cong when it comes to proper nomenclature, thank you very much.

The actions of the US Congress during the period 1973 – 1975 are well documented and your contention regarding our allies has no basis in truth or reality. You should look to the Arab-Israeli War of 1973 (“The Yom Kippur War”) and ask yourself what would have happened to Israel if the US hadn’t airlifted in massive amounts of war materiel and ammunition to support them against the Arab nations. It’s exactly analogous to the plight of South Vietnam and their fight against the North.

For someone who is ostensibly fairly liberal or “lightly” leftist in their leanings, you seem oddly unworried about government intrusions into our civil liberties. This devil-may-care attitude towards programs like Echelon and Carnivore is strange, to say the least, and I can only ascribe it to ignorance as to the actual program workings.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=urbanrealtor][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

Dan: Couple of other things: (1) Militarily, we did win Vietnam. Inarguable fact in that US forces never lost a single major battle in the entire war. Vietnam was lost on the home front, not on the battle field. If you read an objective military history on Vietnam (i.e. NOTHING written by Karnow or Halberstam), you’ll realize that the Viet Cong was destroyed as an effective fighting force during the Tet Offensive of 1968 (a clear cut American victory and one that Walter Cronkite, among other American newsman, cast as an American defeat) and the North Vietnamese Army wasn’t able to mount effective operations in the field until 1972 (nearly four years later).

(2) The US Government is listening to its citizens and on a daily basis. Yes, its wonderful that the warrantless wiretapping issue has been dealt with, but what about listening programs like NSA’s Echelon and Carnivore, or SAIC’s adaptive listening software (which has helped us track down foreign al Qaeda operatives, but has been used domestically as well).

Before you start making accusations as to me stooping to some new low, read what I said and then comment accordingly.

Cheers.[/quote]

Re Vietnam:
Like I said, there is a grain of truth in everything you said.
However, there is no sane historian that will describe our victories in southeast Asia as anything but Pyrrhic. Our allies were routed and in the end we left the country to the reds.
We were grist in the mill of a military paradigm shift. Pre-19th century style total war is something we were not ready for there and (as Gorby said) history punishes those who arrive too late.
“Viet Cong” is just a slur of vietnamese communist.
Today, this minute, as we type, ARVN troops live in Mira Mesa and Vietnamese communists live in government mansions in Saigon (which they call Ho Chi Minh City). The PRG did not die at the hands of the US military. It was merged with the North after the fall of Saigon. We left because we failed and our allies were crushed. Badly. Unwillingness to admit this puts you in Cheneyland and in need of thorazine.

Regarding Carnivore and Echelon:
I don’t give a fuck. I suppose that could change, however, if I get an email from the NSA telling me to stop torrenting Transformers or WinXP. However, that would likely mean the end of the program. Which is likely why that generally does not happen.

I don’t like American citizens being arrested for “planning” (read not acting upon) Jihad but I really don’t fret too much about the civil liberties of the guy who is stocking up on weapons and explosives.

Most importantly, we have very specific areas of confidentiality drawn out in this country. It is generally acknowledged that email is not one of those (though phone is). Wiretapping offends me but carnivore does not so much.

Re Nazis:
Yeah, I think that comparing the Obama administration to the Hitler administration is a new low. Sorry dude, it is beneath your usual level of discourse.[/quote]

Dan: Wow. Again, read what I wrote and then comment. You are so completely missing my point it’s now almost frightening.

I did NOT compare the Obama Administration to Hitler’s government. Nope, not at all.

However, what I did say is that we have seen an erosion, over the last 30+ years, of our civil liberties and condoned/aided/abetted by Democrats and Republicans alike.

I also said that the slide to Nazism is not nearly as extreme as one might imagine and I used Sinclair Lewis’ “It Can’t Happen Here” as a writing that describes this.

At NO point did I ever conflate Obama and Hitler and if you truly feel that I did, well, then you need to put the malt liquor down and allow your hop-addled pate to clear.

As to Vietnam: Hence my use of the words “objective” and “military” history. As to Viet Cong being a “slur”: Not at all. For precision’s sake I could use NLF (National Liberation Front), but I happened to work with a 50 year old former VC Major named Danny Nguyen during my time in the Army and he referred to himself as Viet Cong. His older brother, who fought the Japanese and died fighting the French, he referred to as Viet Minh. All due respect, I’ll defer to someone who was actually in the Viet Cong when it comes to proper nomenclature, thank you very much.

The actions of the US Congress during the period 1973 – 1975 are well documented and your contention regarding our allies has no basis in truth or reality. You should look to the Arab-Israeli War of 1973 (“The Yom Kippur War”) and ask yourself what would have happened to Israel if the US hadn’t airlifted in massive amounts of war materiel and ammunition to support them against the Arab nations. It’s exactly analogous to the plight of South Vietnam and their fight against the North.

For someone who is ostensibly fairly liberal or “lightly” leftist in their leanings, you seem oddly unworried about government intrusions into our civil liberties. This devil-may-care attitude towards programs like Echelon and Carnivore is strange, to say the least, and I can only ascribe it to ignorance as to the actual program workings.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=urbanrealtor][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

Dan: Couple of other things: (1) Militarily, we did win Vietnam. Inarguable fact in that US forces never lost a single major battle in the entire war. Vietnam was lost on the home front, not on the battle field. If you read an objective military history on Vietnam (i.e. NOTHING written by Karnow or Halberstam), you’ll realize that the Viet Cong was destroyed as an effective fighting force during the Tet Offensive of 1968 (a clear cut American victory and one that Walter Cronkite, among other American newsman, cast as an American defeat) and the North Vietnamese Army wasn’t able to mount effective operations in the field until 1972 (nearly four years later).

(2) The US Government is listening to its citizens and on a daily basis. Yes, its wonderful that the warrantless wiretapping issue has been dealt with, but what about listening programs like NSA’s Echelon and Carnivore, or SAIC’s adaptive listening software (which has helped us track down foreign al Qaeda operatives, but has been used domestically as well).

Before you start making accusations as to me stooping to some new low, read what I said and then comment accordingly.

Cheers.[/quote]

Re Vietnam:
Like I said, there is a grain of truth in everything you said.
However, there is no sane historian that will describe our victories in southeast Asia as anything but Pyrrhic. Our allies were routed and in the end we left the country to the reds.
We were grist in the mill of a military paradigm shift. Pre-19th century style total war is something we were not ready for there and (as Gorby said) history punishes those who arrive too late.
“Viet Cong” is just a slur of vietnamese communist.
Today, this minute, as we type, ARVN troops live in Mira Mesa and Vietnamese communists live in government mansions in Saigon (which they call Ho Chi Minh City). The PRG did not die at the hands of the US military. It was merged with the North after the fall of Saigon. We left because we failed and our allies were crushed. Badly. Unwillingness to admit this puts you in Cheneyland and in need of thorazine.

Regarding Carnivore and Echelon:
I don’t give a fuck. I suppose that could change, however, if I get an email from the NSA telling me to stop torrenting Transformers or WinXP. However, that would likely mean the end of the program. Which is likely why that generally does not happen.

I don’t like American citizens being arrested for “planning” (read not acting upon) Jihad but I really don’t fret too much about the civil liberties of the guy who is stocking up on weapons and explosives.

Most importantly, we have very specific areas of confidentiality drawn out in this country. It is generally acknowledged that email is not one of those (though phone is). Wiretapping offends me but carnivore does not so much.

Re Nazis:
Yeah, I think that comparing the Obama administration to the Hitler administration is a new low. Sorry dude, it is beneath your usual level of discourse.[/quote]

Dan: Wow. Again, read what I wrote and then comment. You are so completely missing my point it’s now almost frightening.

I did NOT compare the Obama Administration to Hitler’s government. Nope, not at all.

However, what I did say is that we have seen an erosion, over the last 30+ years, of our civil liberties and condoned/aided/abetted by Democrats and Republicans alike.

I also said that the slide to Nazism is not nearly as extreme as one might imagine and I used Sinclair Lewis’ “It Can’t Happen Here” as a writing that describes this.

At NO point did I ever conflate Obama and Hitler and if you truly feel that I did, well, then you need to put the malt liquor down and allow your hop-addled pate to clear.

As to Vietnam: Hence my use of the words “objective” and “military” history. As to Viet Cong being a “slur”: Not at all. For precision’s sake I could use NLF (National Liberation Front), but I happened to work with a 50 year old former VC Major named Danny Nguyen during my time in the Army and he referred to himself as Viet Cong. His older brother, who fought the Japanese and died fighting the French, he referred to as Viet Minh. All due respect, I’ll defer to someone who was actually in the Viet Cong when it comes to proper nomenclature, thank you very much.

The actions of the US Congress during the period 1973 – 1975 are well documented and your contention regarding our allies has no basis in truth or reality. You should look to the Arab-Israeli War of 1973 (“The Yom Kippur War”) and ask yourself what would have happened to Israel if the US hadn’t airlifted in massive amounts of war materiel and ammunition to support them against the Arab nations. It’s exactly analogous to the plight of South Vietnam and their fight against the North.

For someone who is ostensibly fairly liberal or “lightly” leftist in their leanings, you seem oddly unworried about government intrusions into our civil liberties. This devil-may-care attitude towards programs like Echelon and Carnivore is strange, to say the least, and I can only ascribe it to ignorance as to the actual program workings.

[Author]

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