OT: Blood is on China’s hands

[AK]

[quote=briansd1]I don’t see why we should blame the Chinese.

If we want to fix the Korean situation to our liking, then we need to do what we need to do. If we don’t have the means, then tough luck for us.

The Chinese will do what is good for them, unless we make it worthwhile for them to help us. Simple as that.

Foreign policy is based on tit for tat relationships of equals (or a semblance of it). We need to treat others like we want to be treated. Under Bush, America wanted to go it alone, so we should shouldn’t be surprised if other countries are now telling us “you want to fix it, then you do it; nobody is stopping you, but don’t expect us to help. And if you break it, you own it.”

In diplomacy, it takes years, if not decades, to make admends for perceived wrongs and breach of protocol.[/quote]

Geez briansd, this isn’t about the United States, for crying out loud!

This is about the people of the Republic of Korea who have been subjected to a violent premeditated attack. This is about the long-suffering people of North Korea. And it’s about the constant selfish meddling of the Chinese government that keeps the South in fear and the North in poverty and chaos.

It’s about my grandparents and their young children, who fled North Korea through those same disputed waters in 1946, and were saved by the hospitality of those same islanders when their boat broke down. None of them ever saw their home in the north again … except for my uncle, who had to flee through those waters again when the few survivors of his unit retreated from the north in late 1950.

So treat others as they would want to be treated, and think about those who truly bear the burden of the Korean situation before glibly brushing it off as another George W. Bush gaffe.

[briansd1]

If we are talking about the dead from the attack, the blame is on North Korea.

Why do the North Koreans act out? Because they want something from the United States.

Think about it. China has some influence over North Korea. But it’s America that is fully involved in the Korean Peninsula with military bases there.

America is pushing the buttons of the North Korean regime. They push our buttons.

The solution is to defuse the situation through engagement as the Clinton Administration did. But when Bush come into power, he cancelled all the progress and goodwill that took years of diplomatic work. We are left with the situation that we have today.

Diplomacy is a a chess game.

We played tough with the North Koreans and they didn’t crack. For that, the North Korans are intent on extracting some concessions from us greater than the aid that was promised by Clinton and reneged by Bush. The North Koreans may not succeed, but, as I said before, diplomacy is tit for tat.

The rules of diplomacy (and the egos involved) are such that tit for tat can result in insurmountable tensions that lead to war.

In summary, Bush escalated the situation in the Korean Peninsula, and the North Koreans (and Chinese) see it as the ball being in our court to de-escalate it. They will continue to push our buttons until we give in or we escalate the situation further; or we make it worthwhile for them to give in (perhaps in a face saving agreement for all sides).

AK, I’m sorry to say that machinations of state are not about the lives of islanders. They are about geopolical power.

About China, put yourself in their shoes. Would you not use the situation to your advantage?

Synopsis: The “Blame Bush” series, if you haven’t seen it before, is an attempt to set the record straight regarding Clinton and Bush policies toward North Korea. Righties blame Clinton (and Jimmy Carter) for North Korea’s recent production of nuclear weapons. However, a closer look at the facts reveals that the Clinton-Carter Agreed Framework had succeeded in its primary goals, which were to stop North Korea from processing plutonium and to get IAEA inspectors re-admitted to North Korean nuclear facilities. Whether North Korea was engaged in processing uranium for weapons-grade material, as the Bush Administration claimed, is a matter of dispute. The Bush Administration actively undermined diplomatic efforts by South Korea, Japan, and other nations to reduce tensions between North Korea and the rest of the world. Believing a get-tough policy would bring the North Koreans to heel, in 2002 the White House used allegations of uranium processing as an excuse to break the Agreed Framework. Two years later, the North Koreans have not heeled, but claim to have produced several nuclear weapons. Parts 1-3 are on this page. Anyone who wants to argue that the North Koreans were building nuclear weapons behind President Clinton’s back and Bush was right to break the Agreed Framework should read those parts first.

http://www.mahablog.com/oldsite/id34.html

[briansd1]

If we are talking about the dead from the attack, the blame is on North Korea.

Why do the North Koreans act out? Because they want something from the United States.

Think about it. China has some influence over North Korea. But it’s America that is fully involved in the Korean Peninsula with military bases there.

America is pushing the buttons of the North Korean regime. They push our buttons.

The solution is to defuse the situation through engagement as the Clinton Administration did. But when Bush come into power, he cancelled all the progress and goodwill that took years of diplomatic work. We are left with the situation that we have today.

Diplomacy is a a chess game.

We played tough with the North Koreans and they didn’t crack. For that, the North Korans are intent on extracting some concessions from us greater than the aid that was promised by Clinton and reneged by Bush. The North Koreans may not succeed, but, as I said before, diplomacy is tit for tat.

The rules of diplomacy (and the egos involved) are such that tit for tat can result in insurmountable tensions that lead to war.

In summary, Bush escalated the situation in the Korean Peninsula, and the North Koreans (and Chinese) see it as the ball being in our court to de-escalate it. They will continue to push our buttons until we give in or we escalate the situation further; or we make it worthwhile for them to give in (perhaps in a face saving agreement for all sides).

AK, I’m sorry to say that machinations of state are not about the lives of islanders. They are about geopolical power.

About China, put yourself in their shoes. Would you not use the situation to your advantage?

Synopsis: The “Blame Bush” series, if you haven’t seen it before, is an attempt to set the record straight regarding Clinton and Bush policies toward North Korea. Righties blame Clinton (and Jimmy Carter) for North Korea’s recent production of nuclear weapons. However, a closer look at the facts reveals that the Clinton-Carter Agreed Framework had succeeded in its primary goals, which were to stop North Korea from processing plutonium and to get IAEA inspectors re-admitted to North Korean nuclear facilities. Whether North Korea was engaged in processing uranium for weapons-grade material, as the Bush Administration claimed, is a matter of dispute. The Bush Administration actively undermined diplomatic efforts by South Korea, Japan, and other nations to reduce tensions between North Korea and the rest of the world. Believing a get-tough policy would bring the North Koreans to heel, in 2002 the White House used allegations of uranium processing as an excuse to break the Agreed Framework. Two years later, the North Koreans have not heeled, but claim to have produced several nuclear weapons. Parts 1-3 are on this page. Anyone who wants to argue that the North Koreans were building nuclear weapons behind President Clinton’s back and Bush was right to break the Agreed Framework should read those parts first.

http://www.mahablog.com/oldsite/id34.html

[briansd1]

If we are talking about the dead from the attack, the blame is on North Korea.

Why do the North Koreans act out? Because they want something from the United States.

Think about it. China has some influence over North Korea. But it’s America that is fully involved in the Korean Peninsula with military bases there.

America is pushing the buttons of the North Korean regime. They push our buttons.

The solution is to defuse the situation through engagement as the Clinton Administration did. But when Bush come into power, he cancelled all the progress and goodwill that took years of diplomatic work. We are left with the situation that we have today.

Diplomacy is a a chess game.

We played tough with the North Koreans and they didn’t crack. For that, the North Korans are intent on extracting some concessions from us greater than the aid that was promised by Clinton and reneged by Bush. The North Koreans may not succeed, but, as I said before, diplomacy is tit for tat.

The rules of diplomacy (and the egos involved) are such that tit for tat can result in insurmountable tensions that lead to war.

In summary, Bush escalated the situation in the Korean Peninsula, and the North Koreans (and Chinese) see it as the ball being in our court to de-escalate it. They will continue to push our buttons until we give in or we escalate the situation further; or we make it worthwhile for them to give in (perhaps in a face saving agreement for all sides).

AK, I’m sorry to say that machinations of state are not about the lives of islanders. They are about geopolical power.

About China, put yourself in their shoes. Would you not use the situation to your advantage?

Synopsis: The “Blame Bush” series, if you haven’t seen it before, is an attempt to set the record straight regarding Clinton and Bush policies toward North Korea. Righties blame Clinton (and Jimmy Carter) for North Korea’s recent production of nuclear weapons. However, a closer look at the facts reveals that the Clinton-Carter Agreed Framework had succeeded in its primary goals, which were to stop North Korea from processing plutonium and to get IAEA inspectors re-admitted to North Korean nuclear facilities. Whether North Korea was engaged in processing uranium for weapons-grade material, as the Bush Administration claimed, is a matter of dispute. The Bush Administration actively undermined diplomatic efforts by South Korea, Japan, and other nations to reduce tensions between North Korea and the rest of the world. Believing a get-tough policy would bring the North Koreans to heel, in 2002 the White House used allegations of uranium processing as an excuse to break the Agreed Framework. Two years later, the North Koreans have not heeled, but claim to have produced several nuclear weapons. Parts 1-3 are on this page. Anyone who wants to argue that the North Koreans were building nuclear weapons behind President Clinton’s back and Bush was right to break the Agreed Framework should read those parts first.

http://www.mahablog.com/oldsite/id34.html

[briansd1]

If we are talking about the dead from the attack, the blame is on North Korea.

Why do the North Koreans act out? Because they want something from the United States.

Think about it. China has some influence over North Korea. But it’s America that is fully involved in the Korean Peninsula with military bases there.

America is pushing the buttons of the North Korean regime. They push our buttons.

The solution is to defuse the situation through engagement as the Clinton Administration did. But when Bush come into power, he cancelled all the progress and goodwill that took years of diplomatic work. We are left with the situation that we have today.

Diplomacy is a a chess game.

We played tough with the North Koreans and they didn’t crack. For that, the North Korans are intent on extracting some concessions from us greater than the aid that was promised by Clinton and reneged by Bush. The North Koreans may not succeed, but, as I said before, diplomacy is tit for tat.

The rules of diplomacy (and the egos involved) are such that tit for tat can result in insurmountable tensions that lead to war.

In summary, Bush escalated the situation in the Korean Peninsula, and the North Koreans (and Chinese) see it as the ball being in our court to de-escalate it. They will continue to push our buttons until we give in or we escalate the situation further; or we make it worthwhile for them to give in (perhaps in a face saving agreement for all sides).

AK, I’m sorry to say that machinations of state are not about the lives of islanders. They are about geopolical power.

About China, put yourself in their shoes. Would you not use the situation to your advantage?

Synopsis: The “Blame Bush” series, if you haven’t seen it before, is an attempt to set the record straight regarding Clinton and Bush policies toward North Korea. Righties blame Clinton (and Jimmy Carter) for North Korea’s recent production of nuclear weapons. However, a closer look at the facts reveals that the Clinton-Carter Agreed Framework had succeeded in its primary goals, which were to stop North Korea from processing plutonium and to get IAEA inspectors re-admitted to North Korean nuclear facilities. Whether North Korea was engaged in processing uranium for weapons-grade material, as the Bush Administration claimed, is a matter of dispute. The Bush Administration actively undermined diplomatic efforts by South Korea, Japan, and other nations to reduce tensions between North Korea and the rest of the world. Believing a get-tough policy would bring the North Koreans to heel, in 2002 the White House used allegations of uranium processing as an excuse to break the Agreed Framework. Two years later, the North Koreans have not heeled, but claim to have produced several nuclear weapons. Parts 1-3 are on this page. Anyone who wants to argue that the North Koreans were building nuclear weapons behind President Clinton’s back and Bush was right to break the Agreed Framework should read those parts first.

http://www.mahablog.com/oldsite/id34.html

[briansd1]

If we are talking about the dead from the attack, the blame is on North Korea.

Why do the North Koreans act out? Because they want something from the United States.

Think about it. China has some influence over North Korea. But it’s America that is fully involved in the Korean Peninsula with military bases there.

America is pushing the buttons of the North Korean regime. They push our buttons.

The solution is to defuse the situation through engagement as the Clinton Administration did. But when Bush come into power, he cancelled all the progress and goodwill that took years of diplomatic work. We are left with the situation that we have today.

Diplomacy is a a chess game.

We played tough with the North Koreans and they didn’t crack. For that, the North Korans are intent on extracting some concessions from us greater than the aid that was promised by Clinton and reneged by Bush. The North Koreans may not succeed, but, as I said before, diplomacy is tit for tat.

The rules of diplomacy (and the egos involved) are such that tit for tat can result in insurmountable tensions that lead to war.

In summary, Bush escalated the situation in the Korean Peninsula, and the North Koreans (and Chinese) see it as the ball being in our court to de-escalate it. They will continue to push our buttons until we give in or we escalate the situation further; or we make it worthwhile for them to give in (perhaps in a face saving agreement for all sides).

AK, I’m sorry to say that machinations of state are not about the lives of islanders. They are about geopolical power.

About China, put yourself in their shoes. Would you not use the situation to your advantage?

Synopsis: The “Blame Bush” series, if you haven’t seen it before, is an attempt to set the record straight regarding Clinton and Bush policies toward North Korea. Righties blame Clinton (and Jimmy Carter) for North Korea’s recent production of nuclear weapons. However, a closer look at the facts reveals that the Clinton-Carter Agreed Framework had succeeded in its primary goals, which were to stop North Korea from processing plutonium and to get IAEA inspectors re-admitted to North Korean nuclear facilities. Whether North Korea was engaged in processing uranium for weapons-grade material, as the Bush Administration claimed, is a matter of dispute. The Bush Administration actively undermined diplomatic efforts by South Korea, Japan, and other nations to reduce tensions between North Korea and the rest of the world. Believing a get-tough policy would bring the North Koreans to heel, in 2002 the White House used allegations of uranium processing as an excuse to break the Agreed Framework. Two years later, the North Koreans have not heeled, but claim to have produced several nuclear weapons. Parts 1-3 are on this page. Anyone who wants to argue that the North Koreans were building nuclear weapons behind President Clinton’s back and Bush was right to break the Agreed Framework should read those parts first.

http://www.mahablog.com/oldsite/id34.html

[KIBU]

The fallacy is to assume that since play tough policy didn’t seem to work with NK, hence, cooperative policy should have worked. More likely, it’s the other way around that happened. Cooperative diplomacy couldn’t work, hence we have to play tough, which is just another facet of diplomacy. You don’t see anyone jumping to the 6 parties talk suggestion last week, do you???

Which party you belong to usually don’t have much influence on American diplomacy. I don’t like Bush, but I don’t blame him for the crazy North Korea’s actions or the American’s change of way to deal with NK.

The presence of American troops in SK is to protect South Korea from an aggressive north (a proven aggressor). The South Korean people need the presence of American power to protect them from the NK and China.

North Korea is the East German of China, some Chinese officials said in the past. Not a perfect analogy, but the fact is that China will never stand to let the Koreas to be unified because of its importance to China. China does not need to have troops in North Korea, it already achieved influence on the leadership of NK who depends on China for its survival while NK is playing its role very well for China.

[KIBU]

The fallacy is to assume that since play tough policy didn’t seem to work with NK, hence, cooperative policy should have worked. More likely, it’s the other way around that happened. Cooperative diplomacy couldn’t work, hence we have to play tough, which is just another facet of diplomacy. You don’t see anyone jumping to the 6 parties talk suggestion last week, do you???

Which party you belong to usually don’t have much influence on American diplomacy. I don’t like Bush, but I don’t blame him for the crazy North Korea’s actions or the American’s change of way to deal with NK.

The presence of American troops in SK is to protect South Korea from an aggressive north (a proven aggressor). The South Korean people need the presence of American power to protect them from the NK and China.

North Korea is the East German of China, some Chinese officials said in the past. Not a perfect analogy, but the fact is that China will never stand to let the Koreas to be unified because of its importance to China. China does not need to have troops in North Korea, it already achieved influence on the leadership of NK who depends on China for its survival while NK is playing its role very well for China.

[KIBU]

The fallacy is to assume that since play tough policy didn’t seem to work with NK, hence, cooperative policy should have worked. More likely, it’s the other way around that happened. Cooperative diplomacy couldn’t work, hence we have to play tough, which is just another facet of diplomacy. You don’t see anyone jumping to the 6 parties talk suggestion last week, do you???

Which party you belong to usually don’t have much influence on American diplomacy. I don’t like Bush, but I don’t blame him for the crazy North Korea’s actions or the American’s change of way to deal with NK.

The presence of American troops in SK is to protect South Korea from an aggressive north (a proven aggressor). The South Korean people need the presence of American power to protect them from the NK and China.

North Korea is the East German of China, some Chinese officials said in the past. Not a perfect analogy, but the fact is that China will never stand to let the Koreas to be unified because of its importance to China. China does not need to have troops in North Korea, it already achieved influence on the leadership of NK who depends on China for its survival while NK is playing its role very well for China.

[KIBU]

The fallacy is to assume that since play tough policy didn’t seem to work with NK, hence, cooperative policy should have worked. More likely, it’s the other way around that happened. Cooperative diplomacy couldn’t work, hence we have to play tough, which is just another facet of diplomacy. You don’t see anyone jumping to the 6 parties talk suggestion last week, do you???

Which party you belong to usually don’t have much influence on American diplomacy. I don’t like Bush, but I don’t blame him for the crazy North Korea’s actions or the American’s change of way to deal with NK.

The presence of American troops in SK is to protect South Korea from an aggressive north (a proven aggressor). The South Korean people need the presence of American power to protect them from the NK and China.

North Korea is the East German of China, some Chinese officials said in the past. Not a perfect analogy, but the fact is that China will never stand to let the Koreas to be unified because of its importance to China. China does not need to have troops in North Korea, it already achieved influence on the leadership of NK who depends on China for its survival while NK is playing its role very well for China.

[KIBU]

The fallacy is to assume that since play tough policy didn’t seem to work with NK, hence, cooperative policy should have worked. More likely, it’s the other way around that happened. Cooperative diplomacy couldn’t work, hence we have to play tough, which is just another facet of diplomacy. You don’t see anyone jumping to the 6 parties talk suggestion last week, do you???

Which party you belong to usually don’t have much influence on American diplomacy. I don’t like Bush, but I don’t blame him for the crazy North Korea’s actions or the American’s change of way to deal with NK.

The presence of American troops in SK is to protect South Korea from an aggressive north (a proven aggressor). The South Korean people need the presence of American power to protect them from the NK and China.

North Korea is the East German of China, some Chinese officials said in the past. Not a perfect analogy, but the fact is that China will never stand to let the Koreas to be unified because of its importance to China. China does not need to have troops in North Korea, it already achieved influence on the leadership of NK who depends on China for its survival while NK is playing its role very well for China.

[KIBU]

When one looks closely at what NK has been doing, most people are puzzled as to WHY they did it and think it’s a crazy goverment who rather chase after conflicts and weapons while starving its large population. Many things they have done do not seem to profit their people or even the leadership. Similarly, when one looks closely at what the Khmer Rouge and Polpot did in Cambodia during their crazy and mad period, one couldn’t understand why one would do such thing to his own people.

But when you know that Polpot was following Maoist doctrine and under the influence and supports of Communist China for a very long time, then you would know why such smart and intelligent leaders of a country would kill and go against the interest of its people, chasing after conflicts and SELF DESTRUCTION for someone else interest.

[KIBU]

When one looks closely at what NK has been doing, most people are puzzled as to WHY they did it and think it’s a crazy goverment who rather chase after conflicts and weapons while starving its large population. Many things they have done do not seem to profit their people or even the leadership. Similarly, when one looks closely at what the Khmer Rouge and Polpot did in Cambodia during their crazy and mad period, one couldn’t understand why one would do such thing to his own people.

But when you know that Polpot was following Maoist doctrine and under the influence and supports of Communist China for a very long time, then you would know why such smart and intelligent leaders of a country would kill and go against the interest of its people, chasing after conflicts and SELF DESTRUCTION for someone else interest.

[KIBU]

When one looks closely at what NK has been doing, most people are puzzled as to WHY they did it and think it’s a crazy goverment who rather chase after conflicts and weapons while starving its large population. Many things they have done do not seem to profit their people or even the leadership. Similarly, when one looks closely at what the Khmer Rouge and Polpot did in Cambodia during their crazy and mad period, one couldn’t understand why one would do such thing to his own people.

But when you know that Polpot was following Maoist doctrine and under the influence and supports of Communist China for a very long time, then you would know why such smart and intelligent leaders of a country would kill and go against the interest of its people, chasing after conflicts and SELF DESTRUCTION for someone else interest.

[KIBU]

When one looks closely at what NK has been doing, most people are puzzled as to WHY they did it and think it’s a crazy goverment who rather chase after conflicts and weapons while starving its large population. Many things they have done do not seem to profit their people or even the leadership. Similarly, when one looks closely at what the Khmer Rouge and Polpot did in Cambodia during their crazy and mad period, one couldn’t understand why one would do such thing to his own people.

But when you know that Polpot was following Maoist doctrine and under the influence and supports of Communist China for a very long time, then you would know why such smart and intelligent leaders of a country would kill and go against the interest of its people, chasing after conflicts and SELF DESTRUCTION for someone else interest.

[Author]

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