Karl marx.

[CA renter]

We are in full agreement about that, Jazzman. Thank you for your thoughtful posts.

[Anonymous]

[quote=Jazzman]All said and done, the USSR was enormously successful in some respects. It created a super power, a huge industrial complex, an enviable space program and a secret service that out-foxed even British intelligence.[/quote]

And the USA and Western Europe did all that much better.

Your point?

Anyway, this conversation was a response to a claim above that “we actually are more socialist than capitalist.”

I say that’s not true. And I’m not hearing any arguments to the contrary. The verbal gymnastics around the definition of socialism and CAr’s predictable self-certification of intellectual superiority are not compelling.

[FlyerInHi]

Certainly the Russian revolution caused rethinking and prompted western governments to implement socialist policies to soften capitalism.
At first, it was incidental that lifting the lower rungs of society created more demand and economic growth. Economists now know that more demand, more spending among all social classes is best for growth and prosperity. For sure, there is an
optimal level of redistribution and government intervention in guiding economic opportunity.

[CA renter]

[quote=FlyerInHi]Certainly the Russian revolution caused rethinking and prompted western governments to implement socialist policies to soften capitalism.
At first, it was incidental that lifting the lower rungs of society created more demand and economic growth. Economists now know that more demand, more spending among all social classes is best for growth and prosperity. For sure, there is an
optimal level of redistribution and government intervention in guiding economic opportunity.[/quote]

We didn’t just implement socialist programs to “soften capitalism,” we did it to compete with the communists who started well behind us, but were catching up, and even surpassing us, at a rapid pace. A majority of our most impressive innovative technologies and advancements has its roots in government-funded R&D.

[CA renter]

An article about socialism in the U.S…

“In most democracies, socialism does not connote something horrifying or alien. The United States is unusual among democracies in that it lacks a true mainstream political party with roots in the labor movement. American liberalism developed in the 20th century mostly out of policies implemented by the Democratic Party, which had its strongest base in the South, a deeply segregated, heavily agricultural region with a traditional suspicion of centralized power. The Democrats have never been a labor party; unions have always had to jostle with business for influence. The Cold War further served to identify socialism with communism. But this deep and very American hostility may be breaking down. Recent polls have shown that voters in their 20s think just as highly of socialism as they do of capitalism.”

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/10/bernie-sanders-return-of-socialism.html

[no_such_reality]

[quote=harvey][quote=Jazzman]All said and done, the USSR was enormously successful in some respects. It created a super power, a huge industrial complex, an enviable space program and a secret service that out-foxed even British intelligence.[/quote]

And the USA and Western Europe did all that much better.

Your point?

Anyway, this conversation was a response to a claim above that “we actually are more socialist than capitalist.”

I say that’s not true. And I’m not hearing any arguments to the contrary. The verbal gymnastics around the definition of socialism and CAr’s predictable self-certification of intellectual superiority are not compelling.[/quote]

Our economy is $16.3 Trillion in 2014, government spending at all levels is $6.6 Trillion.

In California, we are centrally dictating the ratio of electricity to be generate by ” green” sources.

We regulate safety standards, car fuel economy fleet standards,, provide free education, have extensive safety nets, regulate air quality, water quality, labor laws, minimum wages, we extensively regulate most start up businesses that are doing it above board (go open a restaurant to see the regulations), we have building codes, plenty of places with rent control, public utility commissions to set rates and terms for utilities, etc..

We are far from a free market capitalist society which I’m sure you’re quite aware was my point but instead want to argue semantics. Yes we still privatize a lot of profits and have significant wealth gap but we’ve massively tempered the capitalism we run with socialist ideals.

[Anonymous]

[quote=no_such_reality]We are far from a free market capitalist society which I’m sure you’re quite aware was my point but instead want to argue semantics. Yes we still privatize a lot of profits and have significant wealth gap but we’ve massively tempered the capitalism we run with socialist ideals.[/quote]

I’m aware that you point was typical Fox News hyperbole about business regulation.

You’ve gone from “we actually are more socialist than capitalist,” cited some numbers that support the opposite claim and now have watered the original statement down to to “massively tempered the capitalism we run with socialist ideals.”

And I’m the one arguing semantics?

Turn on CNBC and relax. Free markets and capitalism are alive and well in America.

[no_such_reality]

[quote=harvey]
Turn on CNBC and relax. Free markets and capitalism are alive and well in America.[/quote]

What free market? Every regulated in many forms. Nearly all the major companies highlighted on CNBC are majority institutionally owned, which is collectively being run by an employee to further the agenda of the owners (mostly the people of the USA). The companies use government subsidizes or programs and from governance standpoint, are controlled largely by the employees. Yes, the CEO of publically traded companies are mostly employees. Their boards, even if they are not outright being politically correct and socialists are promoting social goals. Take a look at Disney or virtually any other large corporate board.

If you want to see Capitalism, you need to roll back to about 1890. This thread as been rife with confusion between communism and socialism.

But sure, keep thinking we’re all self-made capitalists. IMHO, if the bottom 90% of republicans or even democrats got a real taste of being exposed to raw capitalism, they’d run screaming.

[Jazzman]

[quote=harvey][quote=Jazzman]All said and done, the USSR was enormously successful in some respects. It created a super power, a huge industrial complex, an enviable space program and a secret service that out-foxed even British intelligence.[/quote]

And the USA and Western Europe did all that much better.

Your point?

Anyway, this conversation was a response to a claim above that “we actually are more socialist than capitalist.”

I say that’s not true. And I’m not hearing any arguments to the contrary. The verbal gymnastics around the definition of socialism and CAr’s predictable self-certification of intellectual superiority are not compelling.[/quote]

I don’t recall any country in Europe putting a man on the moon, or becoming a super power for that matter, building a huge industrial military complex, or even producing so many great gymnasts. There was Europe’s colonial past, which even the US fought against. The KGB was very effective and was considered, at least by Mi6, to be a force to be reckoned with. My point, therefore, is about the human experience, the collective wisdom available to us, and how it shapes what we are today. It is not about who ultimately is “better”, however you measure that. It seems there is also a case to be made about cultural conditioning and how that limits our ability to tap into the collective wisdom.

[Anonymous]

[quote=Jazzman]I don’t recall any country in Europe putting a man on the moon […][/quote]

Yes, because the United States is the only country to put a man on the moon.

I won’t be attempting to parse your gibberish any more in this conversation, but I gotta say that advocating socialism because of the Soviet KGB is a perspective I haven’t heard before.

Do svidaniya, comrade!

[ltsddd]

[quote=Jazzman]
I don’t recall any country in Europe putting a man on the moon, or becoming a super power for that matter, building a huge industrial military complex, or even producing so many great gymnasts. There was Europe’s colonial past, which even the US fought against. The KGB was very effective and was considered, at least by Mi6, to be a force to be reckoned with. My point, therefore, is about the human experience, the collective wisdom available to us, and how it shapes what we are today. It is not about who ultimately is “better”, however you measure that. It seems there is also a case to be made about cultural conditioning and how that limits our ability to tap into the collective wisdom.[/quote]

How was all this benefited the general population? What was life like for the average citizen living behind the iron curtain?

[FlyerInHi]

I met some some East Germans recently. West Germans still have whiter teeth and clearer complexion than East Germans.

The same was true for Americans, but these days you see lot of shabby, dazed looking Americans with no teeth.

[Author]

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