Personally, I feel that debating on “if” Iraq was or was not a good idea in 2003 is completely NOT the point.
What IS the point here is HOW we got there and how we as Americans were manipulated into supporting the action.
For eight months Bush “could” have done something about Iraq (had he REALLY cared so much). Pretty much every argument used to support the war in this thread was present from the day he stepped into office. Yet it seems he knew there was no real support for such an effort. Heck, he didn’t even USE any of the arguments offered in this thread. He needed something more.
Oops, then 9/11 happened. Bush woke up from his vacation and whipped the nation into a war on “terror” (can’t get much more vague than that) with Osama bin Laden as the “number one priority”.
So we started in that direction with great purpose and determination. Somewhere along the way we became distracted. Very quickly and deliberately, attention was shifted elsewhere (Iraq) with express connections to al Qaeda reported by the White House as a principal reason.
To refresh our memory, here is a clip referencing the 9/11 commission who made a deep investigation on the matter:
In January, Cheney repeated his view that Iraq was tied to al Qaeda, saying that “there’s overwhelming evidence” of an Iraq-al Qaeda connection. He said he was “very confident there was an established relationship there.”
The commission staff, in yesterday’s report, said that while bin Laden was in Sudan between 1991 and 1996, a senior Iraqi intelligence officer made three visits to Sudan, and that he had a meeting with bin Laden in 1994. Bin Laden was reported to have sought training camps and assistance in getting weapons, “but Iraq never responded,” the staff said. The report said that bin Laden “at one time sponsored anti-Saddam Islamists in Iraqi Kurdistan.”
At BEST they were incompetent. At worst they were lying to us in order to push their war agenda through with the wave of blind patriotic support behind them. (Apparently, some have still not taken off the blinders)
So, what ever happened to good ole’ bin Laden? Well, according to Bush, he’s just not a priority these days. So, the very person they explicitly named as the mastermind of 9/11 (and have NEVER backed off that statement) which killed well over 2,000 innocent Americans (and many other nationality’s) is no longer a “priority”. Hey, we were then building up for war in Iraq when he said this, so I can understand he had other things on his mind, but just how insulting were these statements to the loved ones of those killed in 9/11. How much of an idiot do you have to be to actually let these words out of your mouth, not once, but twice! This man (bin Laden) was (as identified by Bush himself) “likely” behind the worst attack on American soil probably since the Revolutionary War and in less than a year later HE ISN’T EVEN A PRIORITY?!!!! (please excuse the shouting, it just gets so ridiculous, that I can’t believe people still make excuses for him)
In case anyone forgot what Bush said or when:
“The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him.”
– G.W. Bush, 9/13/01
“I want justice…There’s an old poster out West, as I recall, that said, ‘Wanted: Dead or Alive,'”
– G.W. Bush, 9/17/01, UPI
“…Secondly, he is not escaping us. This is a guy, who, three months ago, was in control of a county [sic]. Now he’s maybe in control of a cave. He’s on the run. Listen, a while ago I said to the American people, our objective is more than bin Laden. But one of the things for certain is we’re going to get him running and keep him running, and bring him to justice. And that’s what’s happening. He’s on the run, if he’s running at all. So we don’t know whether he’s in cave with the door shut, or a cave with the door open — we just don’t know….”
– Bush, in remarks in a Press Availability with the Press Travel Pool,
The Prairie Chapel Ranch, Crawford TX, 12/28/01, as reported on
official White House site
“I don’t know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don’t care. It’s not that important. It’s not our priority.”
– G.W. Bush, 3/13/02
“I am truly not that concerned about him.”
– G.W. Bush, responding to a question about bin Laden’s whereabouts,
3/13/02
So I hear people say that the war on terror is being won (by Bush) because there haven’t been any terror attacks by al Qaeda since 2001. Umm, please forgive me for being jaded, but “so what?”. Before 2001, the last (major) attack was in 1993. That was 8 years. It’s only been 5 since 9/11. Are Neo-cons ready to say Clinton was “great” against terror during that span in the 90’s? I highly doubt it.
As long as we keep thinking of the “terrorists” as some country in the middle east that we can swoop in and squash with our military, we will NEVER win this “war”. It’s a joke. Your neighbor right now could be a terrorist and you’d never know it. These people don’t have a country or an army to beat with our military. They are an idea and a purpose (neither a good one mind you) and we’ve done nothing but fuel them both.
So, should we stop fighting terrorist? No, of course not. We just need a better strategy. No “bgates” I don’t have an exact detailed strategy for you to review. I actually agree with much of what’s being done currently, such as following their money (and blocking it) as well as infiltrating their ranks and blocking them when plans begin to come together (such as what happened in England). Those things actually seem to help. Dropping bombs on and around their “home” countries only seems to increase their recruitment efforts, so I don’t see that as a great addition to the real “war” on terror.
More than that, we should absolutely NEVER allow our leaders use our own fear of terror against us in order to push their personal agendas while stripping us of our personal liberties (whom MANY of our ancestors lost their lives to give to us) so they can further implant themselves in our personal lives and unfairly control America’s political system. When those things happen (you and I losing personal freedoms) then the objectives of the terrorists are being handed to them.
Supporting our troops and being a patriot has absolutely NOTHING to do with blindly following the leaders of the country. It has much more to do with questioning everything and demanding accountability for how they spend our money and much more-so, exactly why they are putting our best and brightest in harm’s way.
Is everything “wrong” with what we’re doing in Iraq? No, I don’t think so. It’s not about if things in Iraq were bad (they were) and “worthy” of our intervention (they are), it’s the way we were “sold” this war that I have issue with. If you had a list of the reasons we first went to war, I’d bet you’d find very few today that matched with why we are STILL at war there.
Poorly planned, poorly executed, and we were all duped into swallowing the whole thing.
Hey, look on the bright side, at least Halliburton made a little money on the deal!
bgates, you’re right on all the points, and stick by your guns. Good job using data, and not getting emotional.
It’s great that there are differences of opinion when it comes to business; it provides an opportunity to make money (e.g., are homes prices going to fall big-time or not). It’s painful when folks have widely divergent views on foreign affairs, because lack of early, forceful action causes greater suffering later.
“War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself” — John Stuart Mill
“bgates” quote – “I won’t embarass you by asking for evidence that anyone in the administration claimed any citizen was either for the war or a terrorist – wait, yes I will, put up or shut up”
Well, you didn’t ask me to “put up or shut up” (very Bush-like of you by the way) but here it is anyway.
Admittedly, Bush wasn’t speaking directly to a “citizen” as you requested, but he did say the words and directed it to every government in the world (more or less). These governments, being the embodiment of it’s country’s citizens, is as close as I need for your silly “challenge”.
As a citizen, if you didn’t get the message loud and clear from statements like this, you were totally brain dead. This type of “cowboy” rhetoric resounded all over our country and was part of quite an impressive mental game to squash resistance to war both domestically and abroad.
Carlislemattew’s post was a typical last word statement. It was a jab directed at bgates personally because carlislematthew has failed to refute bgates arguments.
PD, I’m not interested in refuting his posts, or anyone else’s on this topic. I was simply pointing out the absurdity in bgate’s post. I don’t *have* to address any of his other points in order to address the rediculous nature of the whole discussion.
I would also add that your empty “bgates is right!” sheep-like statements are almost sickening.
