If you get mad easily about Big Government wasting stimulus money…don’t read this…

[gandalf]

[quote=joec]Same reason people are annoyed with government bailing out homeowners who ATMed their house.[/quote]

Once again, off-target. The main recipient of fiscal and monetary bailout efforts wasn’t “Joe Homeowner”. Mortgage issues are a fraction of the problem. The total sum value of EVERY house in America is only about $20T.

Total wealth LOST by “Wall Street”? More than $200 TRILLION.

The main recipient of the bailout was “Wall Street” and the insolvent banking industry. The money went to PRIVATE financial services corporations. We have a PRIVATE financial services industry. Banks are not government. Banks are not Joe Homeowner.

So why did we bail out private sector banks, and ‘socialize’ the losses?

Banks are not some corporation making widgets in a factory. They are special because they HOLD OUR MONEY. The GOP and Clinton-era Dems deregulated the financial industry and the banks proceeded to gamble OUR MONEY away on bullshit financial leverage schemes. The bailout was necessary because the banks LOST OUR MONEY. Many of them were completely insolvent.

And too big to fail. We have a fractional reserve banking system. Loss of confidence in the banks leads DIRECTLY to bank runs, and bank runs on Chase, Citi, BofA, etc. would have caused a complex interdependent world economy to literally collapse overnight.

Mad about the Bailout? Blame BANKS and “Wall Street”. Enough of this Reagan-era “Government is bad” meme. The U.S. government very literally saved our ass. I don’t like the ‘bailout’ either, but I’m grateful the dollar has been strong enough to ward off the next Great Depression.

Anybody want to see a real Great Depression? Trip to Ralph’s, nothing on the shelves? Anybody have families? Careers? Businesses? Bank accounts? Retirement savings? Poof! Up in smoke… That was the scenario we were facing two years ago. That is the reason why there is a “Bailout”.

Unlike many of the right-wingers (and real estate gamblers) on this board, I am a conservative. I don’t like BUBBLES. I value stability in our economic and social systems. I also believe government (and the GOP) should mind its own business on the “Terry Schiavo” social issues of the day.

The tremendous irony is that by opting for stability, Obama has pursued a ‘Conservative’ agenda, while the raging-idiot “Tea Party” plays the puppet to the corporate interests that caused this mess.

[gandalf]

Flu/CE, I completely agree with your last posts. Band-aids at best.

Just my two cents, but I think the next ‘leg up’ in the economy is going to involve changes to our energy paradigm — shifts in production, distribution, transportation, etc.

So I’d prefer to see a larger portion of the money going towards energy-related efforts. It’s a national security issue as well, so again, all the more reason to focus the dollars on solutions to the energy picture. Just my two cents.

[gandalf]

Flu/CE, I completely agree with your last posts. Band-aids at best.

Just my two cents, but I think the next ‘leg up’ in the economy is going to involve changes to our energy paradigm — shifts in production, distribution, transportation, etc.

So I’d prefer to see a larger portion of the money going towards energy-related efforts. It’s a national security issue as well, so again, all the more reason to focus the dollars on solutions to the energy picture. Just my two cents.

[gandalf]

Flu/CE, I completely agree with your last posts. Band-aids at best.

Just my two cents, but I think the next ‘leg up’ in the economy is going to involve changes to our energy paradigm — shifts in production, distribution, transportation, etc.

So I’d prefer to see a larger portion of the money going towards energy-related efforts. It’s a national security issue as well, so again, all the more reason to focus the dollars on solutions to the energy picture. Just my two cents.

[gandalf]

Flu/CE, I completely agree with your last posts. Band-aids at best.

Just my two cents, but I think the next ‘leg up’ in the economy is going to involve changes to our energy paradigm — shifts in production, distribution, transportation, etc.

So I’d prefer to see a larger portion of the money going towards energy-related efforts. It’s a national security issue as well, so again, all the more reason to focus the dollars on solutions to the energy picture. Just my two cents.

[gandalf]

Flu/CE, I completely agree with your last posts. Band-aids at best.

Just my two cents, but I think the next ‘leg up’ in the economy is going to involve changes to our energy paradigm — shifts in production, distribution, transportation, etc.

So I’d prefer to see a larger portion of the money going towards energy-related efforts. It’s a national security issue as well, so again, all the more reason to focus the dollars on solutions to the energy picture. Just my two cents.

[Coronita]

[quote=gandalf]Flu/CE, I completely agree with your last posts. Band-aids at best.

Just my two cents, but I think the next ‘leg up’ in the economy is going to involve changes to our energy paradigm — shifts in production, distribution, transportation, etc.

So I’d prefer to see a larger portion of the money going towards energy-related efforts. It’s a national security issue as well, so again, all the more reason to focus the dollars on solutions to the energy picture. Just my two cents.[/quote]

I’m not against the stimulas spending per se, I just don’t the way we’re doing this is the best use of our dollars. I’m not saying it go directly to corps either. But, what moved me was reading an article about this mid thirty person in living in detroit. He grew up as a blue collar worker, and never got a former education, because his environment didn’t seem to warrant he needed one (was featured on CNN). Now he says had the means to go school and learn something different.. The guy didn’t ATM his home to death it seems. Just a normal blue collar worker that didn’t know to get more education throughout the years.

People like this deserve a second a chance. He’s in his mid thirties for sakes……It would be a complete waste of his time to continue the next decade drifting from temp job to temp job in detroit, only to be much older and still in the same boat. And it would suck if he’s just left alone to waste…No dollars earmarked for his education. It’s not working.

Side note: I think it’s also sad that we have websites like kiva dedicated to helping folks in third world nations…We have people here too that could use a hand. I wonder if someone like this guy could go into school if enough people donated like $10 to some sort of scholarship/loan. Doesn’t have to be a great school. Just a reasonable state school of some sort…..

[Coronita]

[quote=gandalf]Flu/CE, I completely agree with your last posts. Band-aids at best.

Just my two cents, but I think the next ‘leg up’ in the economy is going to involve changes to our energy paradigm — shifts in production, distribution, transportation, etc.

So I’d prefer to see a larger portion of the money going towards energy-related efforts. It’s a national security issue as well, so again, all the more reason to focus the dollars on solutions to the energy picture. Just my two cents.[/quote]

I’m not against the stimulas spending per se, I just don’t the way we’re doing this is the best use of our dollars. I’m not saying it go directly to corps either. But, what moved me was reading an article about this mid thirty person in living in detroit. He grew up as a blue collar worker, and never got a former education, because his environment didn’t seem to warrant he needed one (was featured on CNN). Now he says had the means to go school and learn something different.. The guy didn’t ATM his home to death it seems. Just a normal blue collar worker that didn’t know to get more education throughout the years.

People like this deserve a second a chance. He’s in his mid thirties for sakes……It would be a complete waste of his time to continue the next decade drifting from temp job to temp job in detroit, only to be much older and still in the same boat. And it would suck if he’s just left alone to waste…No dollars earmarked for his education. It’s not working.

Side note: I think it’s also sad that we have websites like kiva dedicated to helping folks in third world nations…We have people here too that could use a hand. I wonder if someone like this guy could go into school if enough people donated like $10 to some sort of scholarship/loan. Doesn’t have to be a great school. Just a reasonable state school of some sort…..

[Coronita]

[quote=gandalf]Flu/CE, I completely agree with your last posts. Band-aids at best.

Just my two cents, but I think the next ‘leg up’ in the economy is going to involve changes to our energy paradigm — shifts in production, distribution, transportation, etc.

So I’d prefer to see a larger portion of the money going towards energy-related efforts. It’s a national security issue as well, so again, all the more reason to focus the dollars on solutions to the energy picture. Just my two cents.[/quote]

I’m not against the stimulas spending per se, I just don’t the way we’re doing this is the best use of our dollars. I’m not saying it go directly to corps either. But, what moved me was reading an article about this mid thirty person in living in detroit. He grew up as a blue collar worker, and never got a former education, because his environment didn’t seem to warrant he needed one (was featured on CNN). Now he says had the means to go school and learn something different.. The guy didn’t ATM his home to death it seems. Just a normal blue collar worker that didn’t know to get more education throughout the years.

People like this deserve a second a chance. He’s in his mid thirties for sakes……It would be a complete waste of his time to continue the next decade drifting from temp job to temp job in detroit, only to be much older and still in the same boat. And it would suck if he’s just left alone to waste…No dollars earmarked for his education. It’s not working.

Side note: I think it’s also sad that we have websites like kiva dedicated to helping folks in third world nations…We have people here too that could use a hand. I wonder if someone like this guy could go into school if enough people donated like $10 to some sort of scholarship/loan. Doesn’t have to be a great school. Just a reasonable state school of some sort…..

[Coronita]

[quote=gandalf]Flu/CE, I completely agree with your last posts. Band-aids at best.

Just my two cents, but I think the next ‘leg up’ in the economy is going to involve changes to our energy paradigm — shifts in production, distribution, transportation, etc.

So I’d prefer to see a larger portion of the money going towards energy-related efforts. It’s a national security issue as well, so again, all the more reason to focus the dollars on solutions to the energy picture. Just my two cents.[/quote]

I’m not against the stimulas spending per se, I just don’t the way we’re doing this is the best use of our dollars. I’m not saying it go directly to corps either. But, what moved me was reading an article about this mid thirty person in living in detroit. He grew up as a blue collar worker, and never got a former education, because his environment didn’t seem to warrant he needed one (was featured on CNN). Now he says had the means to go school and learn something different.. The guy didn’t ATM his home to death it seems. Just a normal blue collar worker that didn’t know to get more education throughout the years.

People like this deserve a second a chance. He’s in his mid thirties for sakes……It would be a complete waste of his time to continue the next decade drifting from temp job to temp job in detroit, only to be much older and still in the same boat. And it would suck if he’s just left alone to waste…No dollars earmarked for his education. It’s not working.

Side note: I think it’s also sad that we have websites like kiva dedicated to helping folks in third world nations…We have people here too that could use a hand. I wonder if someone like this guy could go into school if enough people donated like $10 to some sort of scholarship/loan. Doesn’t have to be a great school. Just a reasonable state school of some sort…..

[Coronita]

[quote=gandalf]Flu/CE, I completely agree with your last posts. Band-aids at best.

Just my two cents, but I think the next ‘leg up’ in the economy is going to involve changes to our energy paradigm — shifts in production, distribution, transportation, etc.

So I’d prefer to see a larger portion of the money going towards energy-related efforts. It’s a national security issue as well, so again, all the more reason to focus the dollars on solutions to the energy picture. Just my two cents.[/quote]

I’m not against the stimulas spending per se, I just don’t the way we’re doing this is the best use of our dollars. I’m not saying it go directly to corps either. But, what moved me was reading an article about this mid thirty person in living in detroit. He grew up as a blue collar worker, and never got a former education, because his environment didn’t seem to warrant he needed one (was featured on CNN). Now he says had the means to go school and learn something different.. The guy didn’t ATM his home to death it seems. Just a normal blue collar worker that didn’t know to get more education throughout the years.

People like this deserve a second a chance. He’s in his mid thirties for sakes……It would be a complete waste of his time to continue the next decade drifting from temp job to temp job in detroit, only to be much older and still in the same boat. And it would suck if he’s just left alone to waste…No dollars earmarked for his education. It’s not working.

Side note: I think it’s also sad that we have websites like kiva dedicated to helping folks in third world nations…We have people here too that could use a hand. I wonder if someone like this guy could go into school if enough people donated like $10 to some sort of scholarship/loan. Doesn’t have to be a great school. Just a reasonable state school of some sort…..

[sdduuuude]

[quote=joec]A lot of hate is directed towards the government because the government collects your tax dollars…

People don’t care if other private companies waste money or pay out big bonuses if they don’t feel they are funding that lifestyle or paying the bill…

Same reason people are annoyed with government bailing out homeowners who ATMed their house.[/quote]

I agree with you on the first two points, Joe. Gandalf is right, however, that the bailouts benefited the banks.

The interesting thing about the bailouts: The “government is the problem” crowd hates the bailouts because government intervened in the private markets to prop up failed businesses and believes the banks should have just failed.

The “government is not the problem” crowd hates the bailout because the banks took the taxpayers to the cleaners, claiming the government had to step in or the banks would have taken the taxpayers to the cleaners through resulting economic despair.

Either way, we were screwed.

Clearly, it is the combination of the banks’ incompetence and government putting the taxpayers in a position to be reliant on the banks’ solvency. The problem isn’t banks and it isn’t government. The problem is that they are no longer separate.

I still say the Federal Reserve and the ratings agency rules are at fault here. Everyone else – banks, realtors, mortgage brokers, and homeowners – was just responding to the market created by EZ credit and “cooked” ratings.

And if you look at the Federal Reserve, it is exactly this: an autocracy that looks like both a bank and a government entity.

[sdduuuude]

[quote=joec]A lot of hate is directed towards the government because the government collects your tax dollars…

People don’t care if other private companies waste money or pay out big bonuses if they don’t feel they are funding that lifestyle or paying the bill…

Same reason people are annoyed with government bailing out homeowners who ATMed their house.[/quote]

I agree with you on the first two points, Joe. Gandalf is right, however, that the bailouts benefited the banks.

The interesting thing about the bailouts: The “government is the problem” crowd hates the bailouts because government intervened in the private markets to prop up failed businesses and believes the banks should have just failed.

The “government is not the problem” crowd hates the bailout because the banks took the taxpayers to the cleaners, claiming the government had to step in or the banks would have taken the taxpayers to the cleaners through resulting economic despair.

Either way, we were screwed.

Clearly, it is the combination of the banks’ incompetence and government putting the taxpayers in a position to be reliant on the banks’ solvency. The problem isn’t banks and it isn’t government. The problem is that they are no longer separate.

I still say the Federal Reserve and the ratings agency rules are at fault here. Everyone else – banks, realtors, mortgage brokers, and homeowners – was just responding to the market created by EZ credit and “cooked” ratings.

And if you look at the Federal Reserve, it is exactly this: an autocracy that looks like both a bank and a government entity.

[sdduuuude]

[quote=joec]A lot of hate is directed towards the government because the government collects your tax dollars…

People don’t care if other private companies waste money or pay out big bonuses if they don’t feel they are funding that lifestyle or paying the bill…

Same reason people are annoyed with government bailing out homeowners who ATMed their house.[/quote]

I agree with you on the first two points, Joe. Gandalf is right, however, that the bailouts benefited the banks.

The interesting thing about the bailouts: The “government is the problem” crowd hates the bailouts because government intervened in the private markets to prop up failed businesses and believes the banks should have just failed.

The “government is not the problem” crowd hates the bailout because the banks took the taxpayers to the cleaners, claiming the government had to step in or the banks would have taken the taxpayers to the cleaners through resulting economic despair.

Either way, we were screwed.

Clearly, it is the combination of the banks’ incompetence and government putting the taxpayers in a position to be reliant on the banks’ solvency. The problem isn’t banks and it isn’t government. The problem is that they are no longer separate.

I still say the Federal Reserve and the ratings agency rules are at fault here. Everyone else – banks, realtors, mortgage brokers, and homeowners – was just responding to the market created by EZ credit and “cooked” ratings.

And if you look at the Federal Reserve, it is exactly this: an autocracy that looks like both a bank and a government entity.

[sdduuuude]

[quote=joec]A lot of hate is directed towards the government because the government collects your tax dollars…

People don’t care if other private companies waste money or pay out big bonuses if they don’t feel they are funding that lifestyle or paying the bill…

Same reason people are annoyed with government bailing out homeowners who ATMed their house.[/quote]

I agree with you on the first two points, Joe. Gandalf is right, however, that the bailouts benefited the banks.

The interesting thing about the bailouts: The “government is the problem” crowd hates the bailouts because government intervened in the private markets to prop up failed businesses and believes the banks should have just failed.

The “government is not the problem” crowd hates the bailout because the banks took the taxpayers to the cleaners, claiming the government had to step in or the banks would have taken the taxpayers to the cleaners through resulting economic despair.

Either way, we were screwed.

Clearly, it is the combination of the banks’ incompetence and government putting the taxpayers in a position to be reliant on the banks’ solvency. The problem isn’t banks and it isn’t government. The problem is that they are no longer separate.

I still say the Federal Reserve and the ratings agency rules are at fault here. Everyone else – banks, realtors, mortgage brokers, and homeowners – was just responding to the market created by EZ credit and “cooked” ratings.

And if you look at the Federal Reserve, it is exactly this: an autocracy that looks like both a bank and a government entity.

[Author]

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