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svelte.
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June 20, 2017 at 4:57 PM #22366June 20, 2017 at 6:02 PM #806937
scaredyclassic
Participantbecause they appear even more dumb by doing nothing?
the better approach, as in most things in life, would be to not do anything.
June 20, 2017 at 6:58 PM #806940ocrenter
ParticipantA lot of alcoholics must hit rock bottom before they finally wise up and seek the help they really need. One guy had to fall down the stairs a few times and it wasn’t until he ended up in the ICU did he finally quit.
Looks like that’s what it takes for us as a nation when it comes to health care too.
June 20, 2017 at 8:26 PM #806944Anonymous
Guest[quote=ocrenter]A lot of alcoholics must hit rock bottom before they finally wise up and seek the help they really need. [/quote]
A lot of them do, but most of them just die from liver failure.
But I admire your optimism.
June 21, 2017 at 5:42 PM #806955FlyerInHi
GuestRepublicans don’t care about what’s good for people.
But they can sell any vote as repeal or fulfilling a promise and their base will buy it. So why not?Anyway, I’m no longer American in the sense of caring for my compatriots. Screw the red states. Let them have what they voted for. They’ll be opioid addicted without healthcare. Serves them right!
The blue states will likely come up with something at the state level so it won’t be as bad in California. Plus we have a large population with economies of scale.
June 21, 2017 at 6:18 PM #806956XBoxBoy
Participant[quote=zk]I’m genuinely stumped as to why republicans are voting for this, and I’m extremely curious about it, and I hope somebody out there can enlighten me.[/quote]
The Republicans have got themselves in a bind on this one. It was easy and convenient when they were not in power to bad mouth Obamacare. It was even easier to rally their supporters with talk about how Obamacare was a mess, how they would repeal it, etc.
But now the tables have turned and the Republicans are in power and they have a simple choice. 1) Repeal and/or replace Obamacare or 2) Look incompetent and stupid for railing against a bad policy, promising to change it but then not doing so.
Obviously option 2 is a bad choice. You never want to look incompetent and stupid when you are in power.
Which leaves us with option 1, repeal and/or replace Obamacare. If they simply repeal Obamacare that’s going to be unpopular because many who make up their base are actively enjoying the benefits of Obamacare and if you take that away, that will be unpopular.
If you want to replace Obamacare, then you probably want to try and fix the problems in it. And that’s where things get really problematic. There are two issues with that. First are the ideological issues. Some Republicans are angry that the govt is now giving payments to pay for poor people’s health care. Ending that doesn’t play well in the news.
The second problem is that Obamacare forces people to buy health care. Which wouldn’t be so bad except in case you hadn’t noticed, health care costs have been climbing worse than housing costs in 2004. (Maybe that’s not technically correct, but you get the idea)
So the Republicans need to figure out a way to limit the cost of health care. And that is a huge issue that there is no good answer to.
So here’s the deal: The Republicans promised everyone they would repeal Obamacare and replace it with a great program that everyone would love. They used this repeatedly during their campaigning. Now they are in power they need to deliver on this promise. But there is no good way to do this.
So why vote? Well, they sort of have to. It’s like the political world has double dared them. But note that they are all scrambling for cover as they prepare to vote. No one wants to own responsibility for whatever gets passed.
The bottom line is that the Republicans will probably be hurt by the vote, but they’ll be hurt even more if they don’t vote. It’s a choice of the lesser of two evils.
June 21, 2017 at 6:54 PM #806958zk
Participant[quote=XBoxBoy][quote=zk]I’m genuinely stumped as to why republicans are voting for this, and I’m extremely curious about it, and I hope somebody out there can enlighten me.[/quote]
The Republicans have got themselves in a bind on this one. It was easy and convenient when they were not in power to bad mouth Obamacare. It was even easier to rally their supporters with talk about how Obamacare was a mess, how they would repeal it, etc.
But now the tables have turned and the Republicans are in power and they have a simple choice. 1) Repeal and/or replace Obamacare or 2) Look incompetent and stupid for railing against a bad policy, promising to change it but then not doing so.
Obviously option 2 is a bad choice. You never want to look incompetent and stupid when you are in power.
Which leaves us with option 1, repeal and/or replace Obamacare. If they simply repeal Obamacare that’s going to be unpopular because many who make up their base are actively enjoying the benefits of Obamacare and if you take that away, that will be unpopular.
If you want to replace Obamacare, then you probably want to try and fix the problems in it. And that’s where things get really problematic. There are two issues with that. First are the ideological issues. Some Republicans are angry that the govt is now giving payments to pay for poor people’s health care. Ending that doesn’t play well in the news.
The second problem is that Obamacare forces people to buy health care. Which wouldn’t be so bad except in case you hadn’t noticed, health care costs have been climbing worse than housing costs in 2004. (Maybe that’s not technically correct, but you get the idea)
So the Republicans need to figure out a way to limit the cost of health care. And that is a huge issue that there is no good answer to.
So here’s the deal: The Republicans promised everyone they would repeal Obamacare and replace it with a great program that everyone would love. They used this repeatedly during their campaigning. Now they are in power they need to deliver on this promise. But there is no good way to do this.
So why vote? Well, they sort of have to. It’s like the political world has double dared them. But note that they are all scrambling for cover as they prepare to vote. No one wants to own responsibility for whatever gets passed.
The bottom line is that the Republicans will probably be hurt by the vote, but they’ll be hurt even more if they don’t vote. It’s a choice of the lesser of two evils.[/quote]
I’ll buy that. Thanks.
I get that there’s no answer to the health care problem that would make republicans look good (or even not bad). But why wouldn’t it be a less-bad option than voting for the current bill to write a bill that, while not perfect or even good, at least eschews huge tax cuts for the rich while at the same time not screwing quite so many poor people? I mean, are they really that beholden to rich donors that they’d rather look completely heartless while pissing off almost the entire country than piss off their rich donors? That’s not a rhetorical question. Maybe they’re not that beholden. I don’t know. I’m asking. Maybe I’m missing something.
June 21, 2017 at 8:58 PM #806960FlyerInHi
Guestxbox’ analysis is very fair.
Republicans are more beholden to their ideologies than anything. I don’t believe the big donors care about health care so long as they get lower taxes.
Problem with health care is that the markets don’t work for a social need. The only answer is not single payer, but government run health care for the poorest to average American, with private insurance for the better off. People should be able to just show their social security card at a state clinic to get care. No need for insurance.
I personally have a lot of fun with my Republicans friends. When they bitch about something I use laissez faire profit motive reasoning to make my point. They are so beholden to ideology that they will shut up rather than contradict free market economics even on grounds of compassion or human rights. They will never admit that free markets don’t solve all problems, and are appropriate only in some circumstances.
I have most fun with Republicans who bitch about the cost of housing. If you can’t afford it, it means the free markets (as is they were a law of nature) decided you don’t deserve it.
June 28, 2017 at 10:27 PM #807017Anonymous
Guest[quote=XBoxBoy]So the Republicans need to figure out a way to limit the cost of health care. And that is a huge issue that there is no good answer to.[/quote]
There’s no good answer only if you ignore the approach used by the rest of the developed world.
So yeah, Republicans have no good answer.
June 29, 2017 at 4:31 AM #807018moneymaker
ParticipantI find it very ironical that the US has the most expensive health care that is revered all around the world and yet when I read peoples experiences on medicine.net or other health care sites, doctors are constantly misdiagnosing people. I think most of you out there know what I’m talking about. So wouldn’t it be better to build a better health care system that can get it right the first time and thus be more efficient. I think this approach really applies to everything out there and not just health care, car repair, cable companies, plumbers. 10 minutes with a patient just is not going to be enough time for a doctor to get it right most of the time, a more holistic approach would be better.
June 29, 2017 at 6:57 AM #807019ocrenter
Participant[quote=moneymaker]I find it very ironical that the US has the most expensive health care that is revered all around the world and yet when I read peoples experiences on medicine.net or other health care sites, doctors are constantly misdiagnosing people. I think most of you out there know what I’m talking about. So wouldn’t it be better to build a better health care system that can get it right the first time and thus be more efficient. I think this approach really applies to everything out there and not just health care, car repair, cable companies, plumbers. 10 minutes with a patient just is not going to be enough time for a doctor to get it right most of the time, a more holistic approach would be better.[/quote]
Not to make excuses for those doctors, but patients frequently come in with a list of 5-10 problems expecting them to be addressed within a 15-20 minute visit, essentially expecting a 2 minute per problem efficiency and 100% accuracy. And don’t forget the “oh-by-the-way” bomb on the way out that they expect fully addressed by the doorway.
The problem is the way things are structured. Someone is paying thousands of dollars for the insurance. Then another $50 for the copay. Of course they feel they are entitled to hit the doctor with as much questions as they can squeeze in. Which then lead to medical mistakes and excessive labs and studies, driving up cost even more.
This is a vicious cycle.
Bring the cost down with a single payer system, and people are not going to feel the need to milk that 20 minute visit for everything they got, and they might actually get good advice and more accurate diagnosis.
June 30, 2017 at 9:34 AM #807033livinincali
ParticipantNobody wants to fix health care because it will be bad politically. You need to address the cost side of the equation. If you do you instantly create a recession or possibly worse a depression. Health care represents about 20% of GDP right now. If you cut in half you probably put 2 to 3 million people out of a job in the short term. It would be good in the long run as those people would find other jobs that were more productive but it wouldn’t be good in the short term. The problem is you face reelection in the short term. The one hope you might have from somebody like Trump is maybe he doesn’t really care about reelection and might do something politically bad in the short term to fix the long term.
June 30, 2017 at 11:13 AM #807034Anonymous
Guest[quote=livinincali]The one hope you might have from somebody like Trump is maybe he doesn’t really care about reelection and might do something politically bad in the short term to fix the long term.[/quote]
Lol, Trump is now as impotent as he is ignorant.
That’s one of the core misconceptions of the Trump voter: that the president can just manate change.
Trump capitalized on the ignorance of of people who don’t understand how our government works. He positioned himself as all wise and all powerful. People believed that the president simply needed to be “strong” to make things happen.
Trump’s doing his job as if he were the CEO of a company he owned. That’s why he’s failing. He needs to be a leader, not a dictator. He doesn’t know how to do that.
June 30, 2017 at 11:30 AM #807036treehugger
ParticipantI agree with the perplexing nature of this health care bill. What I don’t understand is why they don’t have an Adaptive Management Plan? Have a roundtable of the brightest minds in the world from healthcare industry, social workers, doctors, etc. Bring in folks from all over the world that have government managed healthcare (Canada and Australia come to mind, I mean we speak the same language) Kaiser, blue-cross, United, whoever and review the existing bill highlight what works and put it in one pile then highlight what doesn’t and put it in another. Keep and expand upon what works and move forward tweak or delete what doesn’t and set up a committee of the best and brightest and at first they may meet daily, monthly, then quarterly, then annually. Continue to reform and adapt the plan to expand what works and delete or tweak what doesn’t. yes it will probably take decades, but it would be progress.
I know I am naïve, but I am really tired of the stupidity that is my government.
June 30, 2017 at 12:48 PM #807037FlyerInHi
Guest[quote=livinincali]Nobody wants to fix health care because it will be bad politically. You need to address the cost side of the equation. If you do you instantly create a recession or possibly worse a depression. Health care represents about 20% of GDP right now. If you cut in half you probably put 2 to 3 million people out of a job in the short term. It would be good in the long run as those people would find other jobs that were more productive but it wouldn’t be good in the short term. The problem is you face reelection in the short term. The one hope you might have from somebody like Trump is maybe he doesn’t really care about reelection and might do something politically bad in the short term to fix the long term.[/quote]
Haha, nobody is even proposing such.
that’s like hoping Repuclicans would cut spending and pay down the debt from the savings.
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