Divorce corp

[NotCranky]

Who would regulate and resolve all these custom crafted contracts? Governments their courts and lawyers! What a disaster. Divorce corps on steroids. I guess there could be arbitration clauses , it could get interesting. But I think it wouldn’t be very successful because few people would come to terms or agreement to even make a contract in the first place.

What would be specified. WHo cooks, How often and in what ways to knock boots? How appropriately trophy someone had to keep themselves looking…weekly allowance?

Maybe we could start spouse owner associations.

[scaredyclassic]

Legalzoom.com says they’ll do your prenuptial for 995.00

[FlyerInHi]

Resolution would happen the same way as any other contractual dispute.

Who cooks or other terms like that would not be enforceable like they aren’t under the current marriage regime.

[scaredyclassic]

You can’t enforce any sex terms at all. Consent is still always required.

[CA renter]

[quote=FlyerInHi][quote=6packscaredy]Of course, marriage itself is no place for romantics.[/quote]

Marriage itself is a big contract, one size fits all, by law.

Wouldn’t it be more romantic to customize your own arrangement?[/quote]

Not more romantic, but this would at least force people to discuss these issues before getting married. Personally, I think having some sort of contractual agreement should be mandated before granting a marriage license. Too many people enter into these relationships without understanding that marriage is a business partnership as much as it is a romantic relationship, if not more so.

[CA renter]

[quote=FlyerInHi]

At least 6paxk said that alimony should be limited and temporary. The non-working spouse needs to adapt to a lower standard of living after divorce, if necessary.

[/quote]

One thing is for sure: Both spouses need to adapt to a lower standard of living after divorce. It’s mathematically impossible to do otherwise. Whenever you take a pie and divide it into fractions, no matter the ratios, each recipient will end up with less. That’s why everybody feels that they are being screwed in a divorce.

[CA renter]

[quote=Blogstar]
My decision not to take the sole breadwinner path was in part because of the government, I wanted to be liberated from the things you guys are legitimately terrified of and from Carenters man v. woman society which I think is prehistoric fantasy and manipulation. It is so condescending the way she says, “men are coming around “[/quote]

When I say that “men are coming around,” I mean that more men are open to doing what has always been considered “women’s work.” Or are you suggesting that men, in general, were always doing the caretaking (on the sly)?

Even my own rather liberal, progressive father — who had very flexible work hours and lots of time at home — didn’t do most of the caretaking and housework. He was an awesome dad, and I’ve never once in my life doubted his love for us; we were truly fortunate, and I will forever be grateful for having him in my life. He would play with us, and do some of the fix-it type work around the house, but I’ve never seen him with a vacuum cleaner or mop in his hand. Never saw him dust. Never saw him doing laundry (and since your family is as large as mine, you know how daunting the laundry, alone, can be). His idea of cooking was throwing a frozen dinner in the microwave if my mom was still out working or with her friends. We watched an **awful lot** of TV when my mother wasn’t home. And he was one of the better dads from those times. Most of my friends’ dads would come home from work and plop themselves in a recliner and watch TV or read newspapers until they went to bed. The wives did everything.

Because most men never did the caretaking/homemaking, they pushed the myth that this type of work was “not working,” and had no value (like most other “women’s work,” including teaching and nursing, as much of this work was essentially unpaid in times past). It’s how they kept women under their control. This is what many of the feminists have been trying to fight for — recognition that “women’s work” has value, even if it is not wage earning. Women (and men) in these positions should be empowered, not disparaged nor left destitute when their husbands (or wives) decide to “trade up” or abuse or abandon them. (Talk about risk!!!!)

Are you disagreeing with the fact that men’s perspectives (and society’s expectations) are changing, or? Why do you think that what I said is condescending?

[CA renter]

[quote=FlyerInHi]

The context here is marriage, divorce, alimony, contract negotiations. It is adversarial. We’re talking real money here and women has a strong advocate in CAr.

Where’s the brotherhood of men speaking out for our interests?

At least 6paxk said that alimony should be limited and temporary. The non-working spouse needs to adapt to a lower standard of living after divorce, if necessary.

CAr, if you say that women have this yearning and joy from being sahp, then they would do the job no matter what the pay. Why should the employer pay more than market rate? Artists for example work for very little pay because they love what they do. Some make good money, but most don’t. Yet they are still happy.[/quote]

Um, I’m going to take the advocate comment as a compliment, thank you. 🙂 But it looks to me like I’m the only one advocating for caretakers and homemakers, at least to the extent that I am (not just women…please stop twisting my message). Most (all?) of the other posters here are primarily advocating in favor of the wage earner, with some more neutral exceptions; at least, that’s how I’m reading it.

And as for this “joy” you speak of and how it should affect compensation, what about actors, athletes, CEOs and other very wealthy people? Are they not doing exactly what they love? Should they work for free, as well?

BTW, those starving artists are usually doing it in the hopes that they will make it big someday. That, or they do it strictly for themselves. Caretaking is a selfless task; it is not self-indulgent. You keep thinking that it’s like having a vacation day when you’re single/childless. It’s not at all the same; it’s not similar in any way.

And the “market rate” for what a woman does is extremely expensive.

[quote=CA renter][quote=6packscaredy]No one really needs to be a multi decade SAHM.[/quote]

Many SAHMs end up caring not only for their own children, but for their grandchildren and parents/in-laws.

Just because people are willing to do it for “free” (with the expectation that they will not be left destitute and abandoned in later years), doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have both social and economic value. Try hiring a full-time nanny (responsible for everything from transportation to school/classes/activities, to doctors’ appts., to caring when children are ill, to homework assistance/teaching, etc.), housekeeper, accountant (many SAHPs manage the finances and investments), personal shopper, and on and on…see how much you’ll spend.

Just for a frame of reference, in our neighborhood, a teenaged kid with no experience and who doesn’t even clean after the kids (or do anything else listed above) will make $15/hr. for three kids. That’s the going rate around here for everyone we’ve talked to.[/quote]

Trust me, most spouses aren’t paying anywhere near “market rate” for the work their SAH spouses are doing. That’s where the deferred compensation argument comes in. Women will do all kinds of things “for free” out of a sense of social responsibility and the desire to do what’s right for her family. (Not talking Mommy Wars here; for some women, working outside the home is what’s right for them and their families, as we’re all different and bring different strengths and gifts to our own families…I’m referring to the SAHPs for the sake of this argument). But they are doing it because of the implicit and explicit understanding (see most marriage vows) that the marriage, and economic and social benefits that result from the marriage, will last for life.

———-

Again, regarding that euphoric joy you seem to think most SAHPs feel:

[quote=CA renter]

In addition to that, for those who enjoyed a career before having children and who’ve spent years getting an education and working their way up the corporate/professional ladder — with all the social status, accolades, and self-identity that go along with it — it can be incredibly difficult to suddenly become a servant (for free, and often working harder than you ever did in your professional life!) without an identity of your own. You become so-and-so’s wife or mother (and don’t even get to keep your own name, in most cases). And then, you get to hear all the ignoramuses out there saying, “Oh, you don’t work.” It can be very frustrating, demoralizing, and depressing. I think this is where a lot of the “complaining” and talk of sacrifices comes from. Many SAHPS make very real sacrifices in order to do what they feel is the right thing for their families, and they are giving up a HUGE piece of themselves in the process.

[/quote]

And this…

[quote=CA renter][quote=Blogstar][quote=6packscaredy][quote=CA renter][quote=6packscaredy]Stay at home dad’s give up their most study handsome years?[/quote]

No, but they do give up major income earning potential when they are SAHDs.[/quote]

Speculative.[/quote]
Definitely speculative.[/quote]

Not speculative at all. It’s very well documented.

Not only has the SAHP put the breaks on the career trajectory (usually during the most important years), but staying out of the workforce for even a few years will affect things like vesting for retirement or other benefits, service credit for retirement (for jobs with defined benefits), continuing education/licensing requirements, career experience, outdated knowledge when re-entering the paid workforce, etc. In the vast majority of cases, it will PERMANENTLY affect the SAHP’s income earning potential.[/quote]

Also want to mention that many SAHPs follow their spouses around the country/globe in order for that spouse to pursue career goals. This means that the SAHP often has to give up friendships and familial relationships (which can lighten the caretaking role a great deal) in order to allow the spouse to fulfill his/her career goals. This is a sacrifice that is not accounted for, socially or legally, but it’s a HUGE deal for many SAHPs.

[scaredyclassic]

Many young working women I see are literally aching to quit and stay home w their kid.

Men…never seen an ache.

Not sure if this should affect deferred comp rate.

[spdrun]

One thing is for sure: Both spouses need to adapt to a lower standard of living after divorce.

Don’t be so sure — I know a lady who divorced someone with a serious coke habit. She didn’t ask for alimony, just wanted him out of her life and her finances. She’s doing much better financially since her money isn’t being spent on drugs and who knows what anymore.

[scaredyclassic]

Wait a minute… In ca r’s defense, women put higher levels of energy into the c task. My wife spends a weekend alone at home with the kids and she us wiped out. Me, not even fatigued. Why? I’m kind of lame. It’s more like a frat house. I don’t know. I expend less mental and phys. Energies. By our nature’s the role is going to such more out of SAM than SAHD.

I suspect it has to do with the ache to be with them…

[NotCranky]

CArenter,
Many people feel liberated by a divorce….again ….your money means too much to you and you have to frame things that way. I know a woman, was a stay at home mom ..became a single working mom, lost the house, had not too much help from the father, worked at very low wages and was very liberated.

I am sorry Carenter, you are so nice..and that’s appreciated. However, on this you have and obvious chip on your shoulder and come across as unsympathetic to men. Do you consider single working parents or struggling dual income families before you get on the pity pot? People like us are way up there in the have it made zone..not the top but c’mon.

No way shape or form is typical stay at home parenting as hard as a full time career, from blue collar to king of the world. Are there hardships along the way, Yes, probably in most cases.

Imagine how this sounds, stay at home mom to working stiff, “you better make a living and do it in such a way that we never have to move somewhere I don’t want to go”. I want to stay at home and have you keep my career possibiilties intact locally and ….all my friendships that I have time and social energy for since I am staying at home and not facing a lot of cut throat assholes everyday….and don’t mess up my blogging time either. BTW, I am a huge victim and you are a pig if we have to move.

Besides that, aren’t you supposed to have worked that out before you got married? Caveat emptor.

Like I said, the only thing you can make a case on is home schooling….that’s it.

Typical Stay at home day with 7, 9,11, y.o

6:45 , get your asses out of bed you know what to do. I clean a little around them make a couple or sandwhiches.
8;15 last drop off,

Almost 6 hours to do pretty much whatever I want.

2:00 Starting rounding up kids. Take them swimming( I swim too!), to the library( I surf the internet and look at stuff too!) or straight home for Play or , chores, Coach or sit around at practices and chat with the nice neighbors, or go to mommy and me classes…whoa this is really hard.

30 minute work for dinner, 30 minutes work to clean up.

O.K. do your homework ask me if you need any help, review homework etc. ! hour casual work, while doing other things that suit me like tinker with my hobby stuff , share that with my little buddies if they are interested.

O.k. You guys can watch tv, read, play, fight some more, or do minecraft now, don’t hurt each other too badly on a school night.

Brush your teeth and get ready for bed…anyone want a story…I love you guys(it’s an awful painful hard life but I still do)

Night little blogstars.

Fight some more with people on the internet.

Those 3 months when the kids aren’t in school…I get to spend time with my little buds and do even less! 3 day weekends, chill! This is really hard. 3 weeks for Christmas, Spring break, hey guys lets go fishing everyday( how much does mom owe me for covering that?)

Laundry ave. 15 minutes a day and we often use a clothesline.
House cleaning max 2 hours a week not including dishes. More once in a while when guest or coming or things have just gotten out of hand.
Shopping a few hour a week.

Most other elaborate meals baking etc….Optional and in our case often “family time” not work.

Take care of yard and cars… a few hours a week doesn’t begin to put a dent in all the available hours. Many working dads , even peopel doing overtime, do all this stuff on weekends and evenings anyway.

Nothing puts more than a half time dent in the available hours.

Full time working Wife, after work, catch up on work emails (which generally create some work), plan for next day, also watch kids, read to them, stop them from fighting if she is closest…Have a husband to entertain. I am sure it is a lot of work for the poor woman to have to catch up with me and the kids after spending time with hundreds of people all day everyday. I wonder how much she should get paid for her side job at home?

The situation is a lot more fluid than that ,but only an idiot would think my job is as hard as my wifes once she goes full time soon. Thing is she wanted it that way …and I am going to continue to work part time or volunteer because the other thing isn’t enough and I will lose my mind or die of guilt.

[NotCranky]

[quote=scaredyclassic]Wait a minute… In ca r’s defense, women put higher levels of energy into the c task. My wife spends a weekend alone at home with the kids and she us wiped out. Me, not even fatigued. Why? I’m kind of lame. It’s more like a frat house. I don’t know. I expend less mental and phys. Energies. By our nature’s the role is going to such more out of SAM than SAHD.

I suspect it has to do with the ache to be with them…[/quote]

You are over generalizing. Not that there isn’t some truth to it. …but there are plenty of things that my wife does half measures or not at all and I do with a lot more diligence an depth….just different things. I would think that’s pretty typical…Anyway, someone had to bring some balance to the thing.

[scaredyclassic]

To me, respect and-or money at a job om good at is extremely important and overlaps with being a good dad. I realize that means I’m old fashioned and not an absolute truth but I’d be lying to myself if I said otherwise.

My kids describe me as a “typhoon” when cleaning a super messy kitchen a blaze of powerful energy. My wife thinks I do a bad job. I’d say I do an 87 percent. But the true grade could be in the mid to low 70s. She is in the high 90s but takes way way way longer and is wiped out after whereas I’m just warmed up…
Am I better? I think doing a good enough job at housework, childcare stuff will lead to higher satisfaction and less fatigue for SAHPs

forget an A shoot for a B or C!

[scaredyclassic]

Just don’t get an f

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