The dire climate of CA public university admissions for freshmen

[bearishgurl]

[quote=no_such_reality]I’m perfectly fine with foreign students taking spots, especially if they’re paying true cost.

For a CA resident, UCLA tuition & fees is only $13K. Books add another $1500. The rest of expense is just living in LA.

Out of Staters pay another $26K.

To me, its much like the buy your citizenship immigration. AKA EB-5 Immigrant Investor Program. Just another pay to play program.

But if we want to reap, then reap, lets really go get the best and brightest of the world and keep them here when they graduate.[/quote]No one has any control over what a (foreign student) recent UC graduate chooses to do with their “prestigious” UC bachelor degree. They could take it back to work in the Middle East, where a portion of them are from. That’s what foreign graduates of US universities did back in “my day.” :=0

And you must be aware, NSR, that it’s not cheap to live around UCLA … not even in the “marginal” areas. The rent around there is a lot higher than SD (ex: urban communities such as Hillcrest and UTC).

[carli]

In our experience, the total cost of attending UCLA is 33-35K/yr w/room, board, etc included. It’s still a relative bargain, and a scholarship makes it even more so.

[scaredyclassic]

[quote=bearishgurl][quote=no_such_reality][quote=FlyerInHi]BG, I’m not talking resale value of the toys. I’m talking prioritizing education over toys. All the toys over 2 decades can pay for a top education.

Lots of the foreign students you don’t like coming here… The vast majority of those families are not filthy rich; they just want upper middle class jobs for their kids. . Their families prioritize, and education is top priority. Same goes for many American families who value education.

Families who value education want the top schools, private and public. It’s not just the UC campuses, but UT Austin, university of Michigan, etc… It’s like people who like trucks want the badass trucks, or people who like American Harleys, or sports cars….whatever. We want the best brands and are willing to pay (money, time or effort)[/quote]

If you’re willing to pay then why are we funding it with tax dollars? If they’re willing to pay then let’s treat it like the business it is and real a profit. From the decades of investment te tax payers have made and channel than funding back to provide for the masses.

And I agree, I do have some resentment about the increased competition. But it isn’t about having to compete, it’s about having to compete where Lance Armstrong doping is the norm. Pop Warner coaches getting suspended over bounty programs for knocking players out, parents doing their kids mission project. And the use of tutors and kimono when it gets so prevalent that teachers adjust their curriculum assuming you are have at least one.[/quote]Agree NSR. My main beef with non-residents taking up CA university slots which should go to residents is that the vast majority of them never paid any taxes in this state (which, in turn, fund our university systems). They’re taking up thousands upon thousands of slots for resident applicants who didn’t get admitted simply because they pay less tuition. And at the UC, non-residents have been admitted in droves since 2011 under less stringest criteria than residents, according to the recent state audit.

If CA’s graduating HS seniors cannot get admitted to public university right out of HS (preferably one within commuting distance to parents’ homes), then they have no other choice but CC (for a publicly-funded college education). And completion of a transfer degree at a CC no longer guarantees admission to CSU/UC as a junior (esp a campus within commuting distance of their parents’ homes) …. the reason being that the bar of entry is now nearly 4.0 GPA (CC overall GPA) for locally-based, transferring-in juniors (at least to SDSU). Of course, it may very well be less for campuses located in CA’s “armpit” and its rural areas which don’t have a HUGE body of incoming freshmen from HS districts in their immediate areas which they offered admission guarantees to and they ALSO don’t have a HUGE amount of non-resident apps to consider (both from prospective freshman and transfers).

It’s not right to leave prospective qualified CA HS graduate-applicants swinging in the wind (rejected for admission) with only CC choices all the while admitting non-residents in their place! CA University systems are supposed to exist, first and foremost, for CA residents. Every qualified HS graduate who desires a public university education in their own damn state is entitled to one. I don’t care what anyone else thinks.

I have no problem with CA private institutions (ie Stanford, USC, the Claremont Colleges, Cal Tech, Pepperdine, etc selling ALL of their seats to the highest bidder from in state, OOS, OOC or even from Mars! That’s their perogative as CA taxpayers are not funding them in any way, shape or form.[/quote]

Taxpayers are funding the whole enchilada with a giant flow of student loans propping up tuition prices.

[FlyerInHi]

NSR, you make a good point about charging foreign students more. But the competition is domestic. Students are willing to study very hard and invest time and effort, so it’s just not money families need to pay.

You may call the competition rote learning. But I think that learning is learning. Whatever works goes. If a student reads and memorizes the dictionary, he will become a better writer and reader and learn the roots of words. Math formulas need to be memorized. Historic facts have to be memorized.

In academics there is no Lance Armstrong type doping. Students need to get the grades and test scores. The “cheaters” are the ones who use connections to get in.

[flyer]

Our kids got into great colleges on their own merits, but connections (the ones they made while in school and ours) really did pay off when it came to their careers, so, although life may not be fair in that way–imo, parents should realize that aspect is extremely valuable–especially in today’s uber competitive environment.

[Coronita]

You know. A lot of you are doing nothing more than stereotyping foreign students as being bookworms. A lot of you are stereotyping asians student hard and work hard simply to get a good grade for the sake of getting good grades. And a lot of you keep harping on it being completely unnecessary to work as hard as some asians do….

Has it occurred to any of you that maybe the reason why asians work so damn hard is because things aren’t exactly easy for asians, especially here in america, and yet asians are determined to just do OK? That sometimes in order to just be slightly above average, asians have to work sometimes twice as hard in this country?

Look, for every different type of people, somethings work and some things don’t. And sometimes what might work for your life path might not work for someone else. Life isn’t fair. Everyone isn’t dealt the same hand. Some of us, in order to achieve something near equal or slightly above average have to work a lot more to get there than others. The only choices people have in a lot of things to further oneself is are (1) are you willing to do it or (2) not.

I won’t judge people for what opportunities they want to piss away. Or what they consider what is too difficult for them to try, or “too much more, or too competitive”. That’s fine. We all have are own limits and we all have our own different expectations. But don’t give me this shit that on one hand you don’t want to put the time/effort/money/initiative into doing one thing, and then bitch, belittle, and rain on someone else’s parade that is willing to put the time/effort/perseverance to do something you didn’t want to do, or didn’t care, or thought it wasn’t worth the “too much work” effort, and then complain later on why they seem to have better opportunity now than you do. Why do many of you who complain considerably amount of more time on negative energy, convincing yourself that something is impossible, can’t be done, and than when someone proves you otherwise, you get all bent out of shape? Its not just college admissions or this Asian work ethics things (that you will never understand), it’s even when it comes to real estate and investments as some of self professed experts are such a sour puss on everything, that you don’t even bother to think objectively…which has cost you a fortune.

A lot of asians work very hard because we want to better ourselves. And frankly, for a lot of us, we have to work a heck of a lot harder to accomplish things simply because, let’s face it, we have to in order to achieve the same level of accomplishment as others…. there is a sort of glass ceiling in many cases, and a “fraternity” in many industries here in the US and in many professions that tend to be, for the lack of the better word, culturally white. Banking, wall street, partners at law firms, VP’s/directors at VCs, entertainment, etc, and that’s even for asians born, raised, here in the U.S. Things that, frankly for many asians, will not be obtainable in both 1st generation, and in many cases 2nd generation. Part of this is cultural, and part of this is just well, generational, and part of this connection/buddy buddy system, and part of this is being physically distinguishable from others.

I’ll give you an example. Flyer is from a family that’s been here for many generations. As such ,his roots has been established here, his ancestors has paved a the way a lot, so he and his family definitely have a lot more opportunities. For him and his family. All this “exccessive work” that asians apparently do that many of you kinda thumb your nose over, flyer’s kids don’t have to do. Because, for example, even if his kids weren’t completely the top of their class (which by all means, I’m not suggesting they aren’t I’m sure they are stellar), I seriously doubt his kids are going to have a difficult finding/doing something productive, and making a difference.

Ok, so now, my parents were technical people from a foreign country generation 1. Their only opportunity was to come here on a government scholarship to study. They had no opportunity to work on wall street, their language precluded them from being in management, and some my background and sphere of influence tend to be around technical/engineering related things. How likely am I going to find a C-level executive position in the entertainment industry versus flyer’s kids?

Do I need to work a lot harder if I want to achieve the same level of success as flyer’s kids. Most certainly. Do I wish I had the opportunity his kids have? Certainly. And I jealous that his kids have that opportunity? (honestly, yes sort of ). But at the same time, life ain’t fair. So deal with it. If I want to be successful, I need to work my ass off because of the cards I was dealt. It’s as simple as that…or I simply don’t care and settle for something else..That’s a choice too. It might be your choice, if you’re dealt the same hand as I was, but that’s not my choice. I want to be at the same level as others that are dealt a better hand. At the same time, I’m not going to sit on my ass and just cry about how unfair things are. So fine, if you don’t want to put the time and effort into improving things, that’s fine. That’s respectable. Maybe you don’t need to. Maybe you have cards that were dealt much better than other asians. Fine. You win. Give yourself a pat on the back that you won the “I came out of the lucky pussy” award.

All you people that think that adding quotas, foreign limits, restrictions, discriminatory rules/laws is really going to stop other foreigners trying to be successful are dead wrong. Yes, it’s more frustrating, yes a lot of us ends up saying “what the fvck?”. And yes, you can slow people down who really want to strive to better themselves. But reality is, you will never be able to stop people who have that much passion and that determined to succeed, and doing so does nothing to improve your own situation. Many of us are already use to getting kicked around, picking up after your bullshit you deal us, and frankly as a result, many of us can take a lot more shit than most people probably can who haven’t gone through shit, can. And yet, we still do ok.

But to say these foreigners aren’t as good, aren’t as qualified. Well, that’s just plain ignorant. Many of these foreigners are scientists and researchers and academia. I don’t see many of you people harping on them rushing to get your masters or phd or interested in doing research.. I’m guessing probably not worth your time, energy, and probably doesnt “pay enough”…Afterall, I’m sure many of you, winning the “I came out of the lucky pussy” award, have that fabulous C-level executive position because you knew someone that knew someone that knew someone + had reasonably good credentials (maybe not perfect, but not bad…good enough). For the rest of us, we don’t have that luxury or those connections,buddy buddy system, so we have to take what we can get, spending whatever time/effort it takes to get there. Maybe after we have established ourselves.with a 3rd or 4th generation, our kids can leverage what we are trying to build to take it to the next level as many of you have. And I am hopeful they will be able to, because their friends are your kids hopefully. And hopefully your kids aren’t nearly as pigheaded as some of you are.

[flyer]

We’ve never taken anything for granted concerning being born into families that happened to have had roots in America for generations. We clearly realize that the combination of hard work, timing and many other elements cultivated by past generations created a strong foundation that we have all worked very hard to build upon.

Although I don’t think anyone who, even though by sheer chance, was born in and was able to take full advantage of everything America has to offer owes an apology for that stroke of luck, I’d be the first to applaud every person’s achievements and wish them every possible success.

[carli]

[quote=flu]You know. A lot of you are doing nothing more than stereotyping foreign students as being bookworms. A lot of you are stereotyping asians student hard and work hard simply to get a good grade for the sake of getting good grades. And a lot of you keep harping on it being completely unnecessary to work as hard as some asians do….

You know, has it occurred to any of you that maybe the reason why asians work so damn hard is because things aren’t exactly easy for asians, especially here in america, and yet asians are determined to just do OK, and that sometimes in order to just be slightly above average, asians have to work sometimes twice as hard to just to be slightly above average in this country?

Look, for every different type of people, somethings work and some things don’t. And sometimes what might work for your life path might not work for someone else. Life isn’t fair. Everyone isn’t dealt the same hand. Some of us, in order to achieve something near equal or slightly above average have to work a lot more to get there than others. The only choices you have are (1) are you willing to do it or (2) not.

I won’t judge people for what opportunities they want to piss away. Or what they consider what is too difficult for them to try, or “too much more, or too competitive”. That’s fine. We all have are own limits and we all have our own different expectations. But don’t give me this shit that on one hand you don’t want to put the time/effort/money/initiative into doing one thing, and then bitch, belittle, and rain on someone else’s parade that is willing to put the time/effort/perseverance to do something you didn’t want to do, or didn’t care, or thought it wasn’t worth the “too much work” effort, and then complain later on why they seem to have better opportunity now than you do.

A lot of asians work very hard because we want to better ourselves. And frankly, for a lot of us, we have to work a heck of a lot harder to accomplish things simply because, let’s face it, we have to, in order to achieve the same level of accomplishment as others…. there is a sort of glass ceiling in many cases, and a “fraternity” in many industries here in the US and in many professions that tend to be, for the lack of the better word, culturally white. Banking, wall street, partners at law firms, VP’s/directors at VCs, entertainment, etc, and that’s even for asians born, raised, here in the U.S. Things that, frankly for many asians, will not be obtainable in both 1st generation, and in many cases 2nd generation. Part of this is cultural, and part of this is just well, generational, and part of this connection/buddy buddy system.

I’ll give you an example. Flyer is from a family that’s been here for many generations. As such ,his roots has been established here, his ancestors has paved a the way a lot, so he and his family definitely have a lot more opportunities. For him and his family. All this “exccessive work” that asians apparently do that many of you kinda thumb your nose over, flyer’s kids don’t have to do. Because, for example, even if his kids weren’t completely the top of their class (which by all means, I’m not suggesting they aren’t I’m sure they are stellar), I seriously doubt his kids are going to have a difficult finding/doing something productive, and making a difference.

Ok, so now, my parents were technical people from a foreign country generation 1. Their only opportunity was to come here on a government scholarship to study. They had no opportunity to work on wall street, their language precluded them from being in management, and some my background and sphere of influence tend to be around technical/engineering related things. How likely am I going to find a C-level executive position in the entertainment industry versus flyer’s kids?

Do I need to work a lot harder if I want to achieve the same level of success as flyer’s kids. Most certainly. Do I wish I had the opportunity his kids have? Certainly. And I jealous that his kids have that opportunity? (honestly, yes sort of ). But at the same time, life ain’t fair. So deal with it. If I want to be successful, I need to work my ass off because of the cards I was dealt. It’s as simple as that…or I simply don’t care and settle for something else..That’s a choice too. It might be your choice, if you’re dealt the same hand as I was, but that’s not my choice. I want to be at the same level as others that are dealt a better hand. At the same time, I’m not going to sit on my ass and just cry about how unfair things are. So fine, if you don’t want to put the time and effort into improving things, that’s fine. That’s respectable. Maybe you don’t need to. Maybe you have cards that were dealt much better than other asians. Fine. You win. Give yourself a pat on the back that you won the “I came out of the lucky pussy” award.

All you people that think that adding quotas, foreign limits, restrictions, discriminatory rules/laws is really going to stop other foreigners trying to be successful are dead wrong. Yes, it’s more frustrating, yes a lot of us ends up saying “what the fvck?”. And yes, you can slow people down who really want to strive to better themselves. But reality is, you will never be able to stop people who have that much passion and that determined to succeed, and doing so does nothing to improve your own situation. Many of us are already use to getting kicked around, picking up after your bullshit you deal us, and frankly as a result, many of us can take a lot more shit than most people probably can who haven’t gone through shit, can. And yet, we still do ok.

But to say these foreigners aren’t as good, aren’t as qualified. Well, that’s just plain ignorant. Many of these foreigners are scientists and researchers and academia. I don’t see many of you people harping on them rushing to get your masters or phd or interested in doing research.. I’m guessing probably not worth your time, energy, and probably doesnt “pay enough”…Afterall, I’m sure many of you, winning the “I came out of the lucky pussy” award, have that fabulous C-level executive position because you knew someone that knew someone that knew someone + had reasonably good credentials (maybe not perfect, but not bad…good enough)[/quote]

As someone who also won the “I came out of the lucky pussy” award, you may not consider me qualified to weigh in, but here goes. I was never doubting that you and many others may work harder than most who were born with certain advantages. I see it all the time. And as a female, I especially hear ya about the lack of fairness and like you, I’ve learned to work extra hard and just deal with it, because the statistics are not much better for women in C-level positions than they are for Asians (stats here for banking, where you can click on individual companies to get race/gender breakdowns: http://www.businessinsider.com/wall-street-bank-diversity-2015-8 and here for tech: http://www.businessinsider.com/diversity-in-tech-2014-2014-7?op=1)

My point was that I don’t think we should mix up a willingness to work hard with the extreme and misguided drive to participate in and win the race for admissions to a top tier school. It’s especially misguided because while it comes with many risks it does not provide the future career advantage that people have been led to believe it does. And certainly the ROI doesn’t add up in most cases, unless you receive a full ride or significant scholarship and then, sure why not, go to the Ivy league school.

Another thing to consider…what if some of that time spent in AP classes, SAT test prep, etc, was spent learning how to relate better to others and enriching kids’ characters and personalities in ways that aren’t so quantifiable, in ways that may improve their EQ rather than IQ? Wouldn’t that also provide an advantage in the quest to reach a C-level position? With all this focus on “hard work” where do those activities factor in?

And in the drive for the top tier college, how many parents are aware of the risk to kids’ mental and emotional stability, especially if the kid becomes convinced they “need” to get in and it doesn’t pan out? Psychiatrists and therapists offices are chock full of burnt out kids of all races, including Asians. Some may suggest the white kids are wimpy and Asian kids are tougher mentally but sadly, I bet there are just as many Asian suicide attempts and psychotic breaks at the top-ranking university hospitals as whites, if not more.

Is it worth it? Not for most and definitely not for our family, and not just because we won the “I came out of a lucky pussy” award and have some sort of misplaced confidence that the future will be easier for our kid.

I completely respect your work ethic, flu, and I like to believe mine is similar, but I do think that we should be careful not to confuse the difference between willingness to work hard and buying in to the college admissions race. Getting in to a top tier school is not the only way (and usually not the best way) to get to the C-level position or whatever else is your definition of success.

[scaredyclassic]

Not all of us were lucky enough to glide through a pussy. Some of us had to claw our way to just breathe, cesarean style.

[scaredyclassic]

What is the taoist view on struggling to get into top schools?

Hey that’s not a bad idea for a college admissions essay! Maybe that’s just the thing to get my little one into harvard! I’ll start working on a,draft 4 him.

[scaredyclassic]

…others, like me, tried to come out feet first, which doesn’t work even if you are located by a lucky pussy.

[scaredyclassic]

“The next of your great troubles is education. Those who want young men to go to college are like a lot of bandits preying on the land. Your American college is a school of struggle. Examinations are struggle, athletics are struggle, fraternities are struggle. Instead of teaching a boy to unlearn all the vicious competitive ways he has acquired from childhood, it reinforces them. Instead of turning his mind inwards, it fills him with ambition. Instead of making him quiet and opening his ears to intuitive understanding, it disturbs him and stifles his inner powers…

… What else could be expected? The teachers – the very ones who should be healing young minds sick with struggle – are sick themselves. Their first concern is not wisdom, but survival in a jousting match. Like creaking champions they have to be ever padding themselves with heavier degrees and the production of thicker books, straining their ears for faculty rumour, sharping their tongues for cleverness and reprisal. Are these the perfected men who should be the teachers of the unperfected?”

– The Parting of the Way, p. 167

Taoist essay from intro book on the tao…

I have no data, but I bet taoists emigrate less often.

[Coronita]

[quote=carli][quote=flu]You know. A lot of you are doing nothing more than stereotyping foreign students as being bookworms. A lot of you are stereotyping asians student hard and work hard simply to get a good grade for the sake of getting good grades. And a lot of you keep harping on it being completely unnecessary to work as hard as some asians do….

You know, has it occurred to any of you that maybe the reason why asians work so damn hard is because things aren’t exactly easy for asians, especially here in america, and yet asians are determined to just do OK, and that sometimes in order to just be slightly above average, asians have to work sometimes twice as hard to just to be slightly above average in this country?

Look, for every different type of people, somethings work and some things don’t. And sometimes what might work for your life path might not work for someone else. Life isn’t fair. Everyone isn’t dealt the same hand. Some of us, in order to achieve something near equal or slightly above average have to work a lot more to get there than others. The only choices you have are (1) are you willing to do it or (2) not.

I won’t judge people for what opportunities they want to piss away. Or what they consider what is too difficult for them to try, or “too much more, or too competitive”. That’s fine. We all have are own limits and we all have our own different expectations. But don’t give me this shit that on one hand you don’t want to put the time/effort/money/initiative into doing one thing, and then bitch, belittle, and rain on someone else’s parade that is willing to put the time/effort/perseverance to do something you didn’t want to do, or didn’t care, or thought it wasn’t worth the “too much work” effort, and then complain later on why they seem to have better opportunity now than you do.

A lot of asians work very hard because we want to better ourselves. And frankly, for a lot of us, we have to work a heck of a lot harder to accomplish things simply because, let’s face it, we have to, in order to achieve the same level of accomplishment as others…. there is a sort of glass ceiling in many cases, and a “fraternity” in many industries here in the US and in many professions that tend to be, for the lack of the better word, culturally white. Banking, wall street, partners at law firms, VP’s/directors at VCs, entertainment, etc, and that’s even for asians born, raised, here in the U.S. Things that, frankly for many asians, will not be obtainable in both 1st generation, and in many cases 2nd generation. Part of this is cultural, and part of this is just well, generational, and part of this connection/buddy buddy system.

I’ll give you an example. Flyer is from a family that’s been here for many generations. As such ,his roots has been established here, his ancestors has paved a the way a lot, so he and his family definitely have a lot more opportunities. For him and his family. All this “exccessive work” that asians apparently do that many of you kinda thumb your nose over, flyer’s kids don’t have to do. Because, for example, even if his kids weren’t completely the top of their class (which by all means, I’m not suggesting they aren’t I’m sure they are stellar), I seriously doubt his kids are going to have a difficult finding/doing something productive, and making a difference.

Ok, so now, my parents were technical people from a foreign country generation 1. Their only opportunity was to come here on a government scholarship to study. They had no opportunity to work on wall street, their language precluded them from being in management, and some my background and sphere of influence tend to be around technical/engineering related things. How likely am I going to find a C-level executive position in the entertainment industry versus flyer’s kids?

Do I need to work a lot harder if I want to achieve the same level of success as flyer’s kids. Most certainly. Do I wish I had the opportunity his kids have? Certainly. And I jealous that his kids have that opportunity? (honestly, yes sort of ). But at the same time, life ain’t fair. So deal with it. If I want to be successful, I need to work my ass off because of the cards I was dealt. It’s as simple as that…or I simply don’t care and settle for something else..That’s a choice too. It might be your choice, if you’re dealt the same hand as I was, but that’s not my choice. I want to be at the same level as others that are dealt a better hand. At the same time, I’m not going to sit on my ass and just cry about how unfair things are. So fine, if you don’t want to put the time and effort into improving things, that’s fine. That’s respectable. Maybe you don’t need to. Maybe you have cards that were dealt much better than other asians. Fine. You win. Give yourself a pat on the back that you won the “I came out of the lucky pussy” award.

All you people that think that adding quotas, foreign limits, restrictions, discriminatory rules/laws is really going to stop other foreigners trying to be successful are dead wrong. Yes, it’s more frustrating, yes a lot of us ends up saying “what the fvck?”. And yes, you can slow people down who really want to strive to better themselves. But reality is, you will never be able to stop people who have that much passion and that determined to succeed, and doing so does nothing to improve your own situation. Many of us are already use to getting kicked around, picking up after your bullshit you deal us, and frankly as a result, many of us can take a lot more shit than most people probably can who haven’t gone through shit, can. And yet, we still do ok.

But to say these foreigners aren’t as good, aren’t as qualified. Well, that’s just plain ignorant. Many of these foreigners are scientists and researchers and academia. I don’t see many of you people harping on them rushing to get your masters or phd or interested in doing research.. I’m guessing probably not worth your time, energy, and probably doesnt “pay enough”…Afterall, I’m sure many of you, winning the “I came out of the lucky pussy” award, have that fabulous C-level executive position because you knew someone that knew someone that knew someone + had reasonably good credentials (maybe not perfect, but not bad…good enough)[/quote]

As someone who also won the “I came out of the lucky pussy” award, you may not consider me qualified to weigh in, but here goes. I was never doubting that you and many others may work harder than most who were born with certain advantages. I see it all the time. And as a female, I especially hear ya about the lack of fairness and like you, I’ve learned to work extra hard and just deal with it, because the statistics are not much better for women in C-level positions than they are for Asians (stats here for banking, where you can click on individual companies to get race/gender breakdowns: http://www.businessinsider.com/wall-street-bank-diversity-2015-8 and here for tech: http://www.businessinsider.com/diversity-in-tech-2014-2014-7?op=1)

My point was that I don’t think we should mix up a willingness to work hard with the extreme and misguided drive to participate in and win the race for admissions to a top tier school. It’s especially misguided because while it comes with many risks it does not provide the future career advantage that people have been led to believe it does. And certainly the ROI doesn’t add up in most cases, unless you receive a full ride or significant scholarship and then, sure why not, go to the Ivy league school.

Another thing to consider…what if some of that time spent in AP classes, SAT test prep, etc, was spent learning how to relate better to others and enriching kids’ characters and personalities in ways that aren’t so quantifiable, in ways that may improve their EQ rather than IQ? Wouldn’t that also provide an advantage in the quest to reach a C-level position? With all this focus on “hard work” where do those activities factor in?

And in the drive for the top tier college, how many parents are aware of the risk to kids’ mental and emotional stability, especially if the kid becomes convinced they “need” to get in and it doesn’t pan out? Psychiatrists and therapists offices are chock full of burnt out kids of all races, including Asians. Some may suggest the white kids are wimpy and Asian kids are tougher mentally but sadly, I bet there are just as many Asian suicide attempts and psychotic breaks at the top-ranking university hospitals as whites, if not more.

Is it worth it? Not for most and definitely not for our family, and not just because we won the “I came out of a lucky pussy” award and have some sort of misplaced confidence that the future will be easier for our kid.

I completely respect your work ethic, flu, and I like to believe mine is similar, but I do think that we should be careful not to confuse the difference between willingness to work hard and buying in to the college admissions race. Getting in to a top tier school is not the only way (and usually not the best way) to get to the C-level position or whatever else is your definition of success.[/quote]

None of my comment was directed at you Carli. Actually, I agree pretty much with everything you said. If you thought that if any of my comment was directed at you, then please don’t.

[no_such_reality]

[quote=carli]My point was that I don’t think we should mix up a willingness to work hard with the extreme and misguided drive to participate in and win the race for admissions to a top tier school. It’s especially misguided because while it comes with many risks it does not provide the future career advantage that people have been led to believe it does. And certainly the ROI doesn’t add up in most cases, unless you receive a full ride or significant scholarship and then, sure why not, go to the Ivy league school.[/quote]

Well said.

As for tutors, academics and doping, I guess Corona del Mar didn’t dope.

Lance still had dedication, training and effort and just got an outside boost. It’s still dedication, training and effort. It might be fuzzy but at some point outside help becomes doping.

And not to pick on countries however don’t want to see us go here.

Riot after teachers try to stop pupils cheating

Or here

Test cheating stirs outage, then people start dying

Which is seems like we are.

[carli]

[quote=flu][quote=carli][quote=flu]You know. A lot of you are doing nothing more than stereotyping foreign students as being bookworms. A lot of you are stereotyping asians student hard and work hard simply to get a good grade for the sake of getting good grades. And a lot of you keep harping on it being completely unnecessary to work as hard as some asians do….

You know, has it occurred to any of you that maybe the reason why asians work so damn hard is because things aren’t exactly easy for asians, especially here in america, and yet asians are determined to just do OK, and that sometimes in order to just be slightly above average, asians have to work sometimes twice as hard to just to be slightly above average in this country?

Look, for every different type of people, somethings work and some things don’t. And sometimes what might work for your life path might not work for someone else. Life isn’t fair. Everyone isn’t dealt the same hand. Some of us, in order to achieve something near equal or slightly above average have to work a lot more to get there than others. The only choices you have are (1) are you willing to do it or (2) not.

I won’t judge people for what opportunities they want to piss away. Or what they consider what is too difficult for them to try, or “too much more, or too competitive”. That’s fine. We all have are own limits and we all have our own different expectations. But don’t give me this shit that on one hand you don’t want to put the time/effort/money/initiative into doing one thing, and then bitch, belittle, and rain on someone else’s parade that is willing to put the time/effort/perseverance to do something you didn’t want to do, or didn’t care, or thought it wasn’t worth the “too much work” effort, and then complain later on why they seem to have better opportunity now than you do.

A lot of asians work very hard because we want to better ourselves. And frankly, for a lot of us, we have to work a heck of a lot harder to accomplish things simply because, let’s face it, we have to, in order to achieve the same level of accomplishment as others…. there is a sort of glass ceiling in many cases, and a “fraternity” in many industries here in the US and in many professions that tend to be, for the lack of the better word, culturally white. Banking, wall street, partners at law firms, VP’s/directors at VCs, entertainment, etc, and that’s even for asians born, raised, here in the U.S. Things that, frankly for many asians, will not be obtainable in both 1st generation, and in many cases 2nd generation. Part of this is cultural, and part of this is just well, generational, and part of this connection/buddy buddy system.

I’ll give you an example. Flyer is from a family that’s been here for many generations. As such ,his roots has been established here, his ancestors has paved a the way a lot, so he and his family definitely have a lot more opportunities. For him and his family. All this “exccessive work” that asians apparently do that many of you kinda thumb your nose over, flyer’s kids don’t have to do. Because, for example, even if his kids weren’t completely the top of their class (which by all means, I’m not suggesting they aren’t I’m sure they are stellar), I seriously doubt his kids are going to have a difficult finding/doing something productive, and making a difference.

Ok, so now, my parents were technical people from a foreign country generation 1. Their only opportunity was to come here on a government scholarship to study. They had no opportunity to work on wall street, their language precluded them from being in management, and some my background and sphere of influence tend to be around technical/engineering related things. How likely am I going to find a C-level executive position in the entertainment industry versus flyer’s kids?

Do I need to work a lot harder if I want to achieve the same level of success as flyer’s kids. Most certainly. Do I wish I had the opportunity his kids have? Certainly. And I jealous that his kids have that opportunity? (honestly, yes sort of ). But at the same time, life ain’t fair. So deal with it. If I want to be successful, I need to work my ass off because of the cards I was dealt. It’s as simple as that…or I simply don’t care and settle for something else..That’s a choice too. It might be your choice, if you’re dealt the same hand as I was, but that’s not my choice. I want to be at the same level as others that are dealt a better hand. At the same time, I’m not going to sit on my ass and just cry about how unfair things are. So fine, if you don’t want to put the time and effort into improving things, that’s fine. That’s respectable. Maybe you don’t need to. Maybe you have cards that were dealt much better than other asians. Fine. You win. Give yourself a pat on the back that you won the “I came out of the lucky pussy” award.

All you people that think that adding quotas, foreign limits, restrictions, discriminatory rules/laws is really going to stop other foreigners trying to be successful are dead wrong. Yes, it’s more frustrating, yes a lot of us ends up saying “what the fvck?”. And yes, you can slow people down who really want to strive to better themselves. But reality is, you will never be able to stop people who have that much passion and that determined to succeed, and doing so does nothing to improve your own situation. Many of us are already use to getting kicked around, picking up after your bullshit you deal us, and frankly as a result, many of us can take a lot more shit than most people probably can who haven’t gone through shit, can. And yet, we still do ok.

But to say these foreigners aren’t as good, aren’t as qualified. Well, that’s just plain ignorant. Many of these foreigners are scientists and researchers and academia. I don’t see many of you people harping on them rushing to get your masters or phd or interested in doing research.. I’m guessing probably not worth your time, energy, and probably doesnt “pay enough”…Afterall, I’m sure many of you, winning the “I came out of the lucky pussy” award, have that fabulous C-level executive position because you knew someone that knew someone that knew someone + had reasonably good credentials (maybe not perfect, but not bad…good enough)[/quote]

As someone who also won the “I came out of the lucky pussy” award, you may not consider me qualified to weigh in, but here goes. I was never doubting that you and many others may work harder than most who were born with certain advantages. I see it all the time. And as a female, I especially hear ya about the lack of fairness and like you, I’ve learned to work extra hard and just deal with it, because the statistics are not much better for women in C-level positions than they are for Asians (stats here for banking, where you can click on individual companies to get race/gender breakdowns: http://www.businessinsider.com/wall-street-bank-diversity-2015-8 and here for tech: http://www.businessinsider.com/diversity-in-tech-2014-2014-7?op=1)

My point was that I don’t think we should mix up a willingness to work hard with the extreme and misguided drive to participate in and win the race for admissions to a top tier school. It’s especially misguided because while it comes with many risks it does not provide the future career advantage that people have been led to believe it does. And certainly the ROI doesn’t add up in most cases, unless you receive a full ride or significant scholarship and then, sure why not, go to the Ivy league school.

Another thing to consider…what if some of that time spent in AP classes, SAT test prep, etc, was spent learning how to relate better to others and enriching kids’ characters and personalities in ways that aren’t so quantifiable, in ways that may improve their EQ rather than IQ? Wouldn’t that also provide an advantage in the quest to reach a C-level position? With all this focus on “hard work” where do those activities factor in?

And in the drive for the top tier college, how many parents are aware of the risk to kids’ mental and emotional stability, especially if the kid becomes convinced they “need” to get in and it doesn’t pan out? Psychiatrists and therapists offices are chock full of burnt out kids of all races, including Asians. Some may suggest the white kids are wimpy and Asian kids are tougher mentally but sadly, I bet there are just as many Asian suicide attempts and psychotic breaks at the top-ranking university hospitals as whites, if not more.

Is it worth it? Not for most and definitely not for our family, and not just because we won the “I came out of a lucky pussy” award and have some sort of misplaced confidence that the future will be easier for our kid.

I completely respect your work ethic, flu, and I like to believe mine is similar, but I do think that we should be careful not to confuse the difference between willingness to work hard and buying in to the college admissions race. Getting in to a top tier school is not the only way (and usually not the best way) to get to the C-level position or whatever else is your definition of success.[/quote]

None of my comment was directed at you Carli. Actually, I agree pretty much with everything you said. If you thought that if any of my comment was directed at you, then please don’t.[/quote]

Thank you, flu. No offense taken, and I didn’t mean to sound like I was taking it personally. I was just responding with my own opinion to your thoughtful post. 🙂

[Author]

Posts