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flyer.
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May 18, 2016 at 12:11 AM #797686May 18, 2016 at 6:11 AM #797688
flyer
ParticipantMy daughter mentioned this book to us because she was very interested to note that the four-step program (per the excerpt from the review below) was very much the way we raised her and our other children, and, was also the way my parents raised us.
“Duckworth offers what amounts to a four-step program, the last step of which is to overcome pessimism by cultivating what her fellow psychologist Carol Dweck calls a “growth mind-set.” I just have to complete Steps 1 through 3 first: (1) identify a burning interest; (2) practice it a lot; and (3) develop a sense of higher purpose, by which Duckworth means I must believe that my passion will improve the world.”
Wonderful to see this approach is alive and well, because it does seem to work.
May 18, 2016 at 7:18 AM #797689no_such_reality
ParticipantFIH and Flyer sounds like a great book, I’ll add it to my check it out list.
And I inherently agree.
Passion becomes critical. You have to believe in what you’re doing. You have to believe it will make a difference. You have to have the grit, because many have the desire or the desperation to long ten thousand hours doing it, or 20,000 hours. Sometimes only 3000 hours.
Without the passion you can’t keep it going. Like Carli, I kind of cringe when commencement speaker saw follow your bliss, or follow your passion. The pragmatic side agrees with her. My EQ side agrees with them, follow the passion, without it you’ll slog. You might be financially comfortable, but fairly neurotic and semi-burned out at 40. Consigning yourself Dickensian fight to maintain. It’s a mindset trap of scarcity.
Follow the passion, approach life from a mindset of abundance. We’ve talked about it before, to many lack meaning and don’t feel their jobs make a difference.
May 18, 2016 at 7:22 AM #797690scaredyclassic
ParticipantWhy is step 3 required?
May 18, 2016 at 8:30 AM #797692ParticipantIt’s the concept that what your doing matters. Not the “God is calling me to this” version of that. Although if that’s what works go with it.
In the end, if you can feel what you’re doing matters, you keep going. Without it you stop. Go half heartedly, etc.
May 18, 2016 at 9:11 AM #797696FlyerInHi
Guest[quote=scaredyclassic]Why is step 3 required?[/quote]
The very accomplished book reviewer who is a Jewish author from the Ivy League said you can skip it. The example was that CEO of Cinnabon bootstrapped her way to the top and uses corporate slogannism to sell herself. But really, at some ungodly amount of.calories, Cinnabons are no good to anyone. Haha.
May 18, 2016 at 9:17 AM #797697Participant[quote=FlyerInHi][quote=scaredyclassic]Why is step 3 required?[/quote]
The very accomplished book reviewer who is a Jewish author from the Ivy League said you can skip it. The example was that CEO of Cinnabon bootstrapped her way to the top and uses corporate slogannism to sell herself. But really, at some ungodly amount of.calories, Cinnabons are no good to anyone. Haha.[/quote]
Most of us move forward in the face of meaninglessness.
May 18, 2016 at 9:18 AM #797698carli
ParticipantI keep hearing about Duckworth’s “Grit” book and it seems the term itself is the word du jour. I read the same review in the Times a couple weeks ago and thought about buying it but didn’t, partly because there were a few criticisms mentioned in the NYT review that turned me off. For example, the reviewer says “Duckworth never questions the values of a society geared towards winning” so if the author is only going to give a bunch of examples of people who have grit and pull themselves up by their bootstraps, that’s awesome and could be a fun and inspiring read, and it might be something I’d flip through, but I’m more interested in the deeper discussion. I’m not dismissing grit as a concept or important character trait but I just don’t care to read another Ted talk book.
And, yes, no doubt the Peace Corps is an achievement. Talk about competition – it’s tough these days to be accepted, probably because the job market was so tight in recent years that the Peace Corps became even more attractive for new graduates. I have no idea if my son will be accepted to a program and country of interest as the application/interview/placement process can take two years. And FIH thanks for your stamp of approval on his sociology major. 😉 I have no idea if he will ever use it specifically in a career, nor does he, as he has not developed a passion yet. It’s gravy if a kid has a specific career intention after school, but most don’t, and that’s fine by us. I have no doubt he’ll be successful and look forward to watching his journey. Good news is he has already demonstrated plenty of grit (yes, even in high school and the college admissions process!) so he’ll be fine.
May 18, 2016 at 9:24 AM #797699ParticipantA philosophy of pessimism that cheered me up with its realism. Don’t lie to me. I’ll be happier if I know the truth.
Look, 9 of 10 doctors,say they would NOT recommend being a doc to their kids. Does that mean the kids,shouldn’t be docs?
No. Just come in with low expectations…for fulfillment, money, and everything…you will ean your bread by the sweat of your brow. Gen 3:19. and u will likely be happy, or happier than u expected.
But maybe drink a bit less. 1 in 3 lawyers have alcohol problem?
May 18, 2016 at 9:59 AM #797702ParticipantMy concern is while perseverance and effort is important, we’ve completely skewed the weighting of it.
We’ve pushed the mindset to 10,000 hours and have set out measures up to emphasize and reward, Pyrrhic levels of effort.
[quote]But a new Princeton study tears that theory down. In a meta-analysis of 88 studies on deliberate practice, the researchers found that practice accounted for just a 12% difference in performance in various domains.
What’s really surprising is how much it depends on the domain:
• In games, practice made for a 26% difference
• In music, it was a 21% difference
• In sports, an 18% difference
• In education, a 4% difference
• In professions, just a 1% difference[/quote]
I think that’s why we see so much angst around common core in high achieving schools. All that practice is geared towards mastery at performing at the prior school model. It’s the wrong model, IMHO. The education should have our kids able to roll with those changes.
May 18, 2016 at 10:27 AM #797705ParticipantMy little one plays the piano beautifully. He practices 30 mins. A day. Been playing a few years.
I practiced music lessons for years.
I sucked at the beginning and sucked at the end.
He has music in him, unlike anyone in our family.
If I practice 50000 hours I will never be a major league shortstop.
May 18, 2016 at 11:06 AM #797707Guest[quote=scaredyclassic]
A philosophy of pessimism that cheered me up with its realism. Don’t lie to me. I’ll be happier if I know the truth.
[/quote]
I’m also happier with the truth.
Back to the Cinnabon woman. Maybe she believes she’s making a difference in the world. Those treats make people happy although the empty calories aren’t good for anyone. If she’s a thinking person, she knows the truth and is just selling a bill of goods.
May 18, 2016 at 12:30 PM #797709bearishgurl
Participant[quote=carli]I keep hearing about Duckworth’s “Grit” book and it seems the term itself is the word du jour. I read the same review in the Times a couple weeks ago and thought about buying it but didn’t, partly because there were a few criticisms mentioned in the NYT review that turned me off. For example, the reviewer says “Duckworth never questions the values of a society geared towards winning” so if the author is only going to give a bunch of examples of people who have grit and pull themselves up by their bootstraps, that’s awesome and could be a fun and inspiring read, and it might be something I’d flip through, but I’m more interested in the deeper discussion. I’m not dismissing grit as a concept or important character trait but I just don’t care to read another Ted talk book.
And, yes, no doubt the Peace Corps is an achievement. Talk about competition – it’s tough these days to be accepted, probably because the job market was so tight in recent years that the Peace Corps became even more attractive for new graduates. I have no idea if my son will be accepted to a program and country of interest as the application/interview/placement process can take two years. And FIH thanks for your stamp of approval on his sociology major. 😉 I have no idea if he will ever use it specifically in a career, nor does he, as he has not developed a passion yet. It’s gravy if a kid has a specific career intention after school, but most don’t, and that’s fine by us. I have no doubt he’ll be successful and look forward to watching his journey. Good news is he has already demonstrated plenty of grit (yes, even in high school and the college admissions process!) so he’ll be fine.[/quote]carli, I believe your soon-to-be graduate is smart but most college graduates today can’t afford the luxury to continue to search for their “passion” after college graduation. They have to start paying rent and other bills and even start paying on (often HUGE) student loans within six months of graduating! They can’t bother with applying to the Peace Corps (however noble that might seem) cuz they need to start making an actual living wage ASAP, preferably yesterday. As you stated earlier on this thread, your spouse recently opined that your soon-to-be graduate is now “off the (family?) payroll.” (You have more kids coming down the pike who will likely apply for university.)
Had your soon-to-be graduate elected to major in social work instead of sociology, he could have immediately gone to work in any county in CA as an aid worker (TANF/SNAP), Medi-Cal worker or APS/CPS worker for the giant CDHS and their subsidiaries (the behemoth HHSA in 58 counties). These agencies always have openings. Yes, he would have only started out making $45-$50K, but that is actually a living wage in many CA counties. In addition, he would have received leave benefits upon employment, all other benefits within one month of employment, a clear career path laid out before him and become vested in a DBP after five years of service. Most agencies also offer educational benefits, which would have nearly paid for him to earn his MSW in the evenings.
Of course, I’m not saying here that a social work career would have been right for your son as I don’t know him. But it is a much more “practical” degree than sociology (sans a teaching credential).
A new university graduate has to get their foot in the door somewhere to begin their careers. It doesn’t matter much at this point in their lives if they feel they will be “passionate” about their first jobs … or not. They need to start acting like adults and taking responsibility for themselves (and their student loan(s), if they have any). If they take another year+ to “find themselves” after college, their more savvy (and hungry) “brethren” will have snapped up all the entry-level FT jobs around their CA campus using their freshly-minted diplomas and academic-advisor reccos as “street cred.” The early bird gets the worm. I never had to insist that my kid(s) get FT jobs right out of college. They already had one lined up before graduation without any input from their parents.
The vast majority of boomers took FT work right out of HS/college which many millenials today would consider “slogging” and beneath them. Or, in the alternative, boomers immediately joined (or were drafted into) the military right out of HS/college. Yes, even the ones who had college degrees :=0
Our generation valued independence from parents ASAP and needed/wanted to support ourselves (with a spouse often in tow) straight out of the gate. Fortunately, for us, getting out on our own was a bit more doable (financially) then than it is now.
May 18, 2016 at 2:05 PM #797712Participant[quote=bearishgurl][quote=carli]I keep hearing about Duckworth’s “Grit” book and it seems the term itself is the word du jour. I read the same review in the Times a couple weeks ago and thought about buying it but didn’t, partly because there were a few criticisms mentioned in the NYT review that turned me off. For example, the reviewer says “Duckworth never questions the values of a society geared towards winning” so if the author is only going to give a bunch of examples of people who have grit and pull themselves up by their bootstraps, that’s awesome and could be a fun and inspiring read, and it might be something I’d flip through, but I’m more interested in the deeper discussion. I’m not dismissing grit as a concept or important character trait but I just don’t care to read another Ted talk book.
And, yes, no doubt the Peace Corps is an achievement. Talk about competition – it’s tough these days to be accepted, probably because the job market was so tight in recent years that the Peace Corps became even more attractive for new graduates. I have no idea if my son will be accepted to a program and country of interest as the application/interview/placement process can take two years. And FIH thanks for your stamp of approval on his sociology major. 😉 I have no idea if he will ever use it specifically in a career, nor does he, as he has not developed a passion yet. It’s gravy if a kid has a specific career intention after school, but most don’t, and that’s fine by us. I have no doubt he’ll be successful and look forward to watching his journey. Good news is he has already demonstrated plenty of grit (yes, even in high school and the college admissions process!) so he’ll be fine.[/quote]carli, I believe your soon-to-be graduate is smart but most college graduates today can’t afford the luxury to continue to search for their “passion” after college graduation. They have to start paying rent and other bills and even start paying on (often HUGE) student loans within six months of graduating! They can’t bother with applying to the Peace Corps (however noble that might seem) cuz they need to start making an actual living wage ASAP, preferably yesterday. As you stated earlier on this thread, your spouse recently opined that your soon-to-be graduate is now “off the (family?) payroll.” (You have more kids coming down the pike who will likely apply for university.)
Had your soon-to-be graduate elected to major in social work instead of sociology, he could have immediately gone to work in any county in CA as an aid worker (TANF/SNAP), Medi-Cal worker or APS/CPS worker for the giant CDHS and their subsidiaries (the behemoth HHSA in 58 counties). These agencies always have openings. Yes, he would have only started out making $45-$50K, but that is actually a living wage in many CA counties. In addition, he would have received leave benefits upon employment, all other benefits within one month of employment, a clear career path laid out before him and become vested in a DBP after five years of service. Most agencies also offer educational benefits, which would have nearly paid for him to earn his MSW in the evenings.
Of course, I’m not saying here that a social work career would have been right for your son as I don’t know him. But it is a much more “practical” degree than sociology (sans a teaching credential).
A new university graduate has to get their foot in the door somewhere to begin their careers. It doesn’t matter much at this point in their lives if they feel they will be “passionate” about their first jobs … or not. They need to start acting like adults and taking responsibility for themselves (and their student loan(s), if they have any). If they take another year+ to “find themselves” after college, their more savvy (and hungry) “brethren” will have snapped up all the entry-level FT jobs around their CA campus using their freshly-minted diplomas and academic-advisor reccos as “street cred.” The early bird gets the worm. I never had to insist that my kid(s) get FT jobs right out of college. They already had one lined up before graduation without any input from their parents.
The vast majority of boomers took FT work right out of HS/college which many millenials today would consider “slogging” and beneath them. Or, in the alternative, boomers immediately joined (or were drafted into) the military right out of HS/college. Yes, even the ones who had college degrees :=0
Our generation valued independence from parents ASAP and needed/wanted to support ourselves (with a spouse often in tow) straight out of the gate. Fortunately, for us, getting out on our own was a bit more doable (financially) then than it is now.[/quote]
Wow, BG, thanks for the tips! Have you considered a second job with the UCLA career counseling department? I hear they offer great benefits. 😉
Seriously, though, not to worry. There’s no debt as he had that great scholarship and even if not, we had already agreed to cover him through college so there wouldn’t be debt. He saved up a couple grand and he’s ready to be on his own. He’ll live in LA with roomies while working an entry level job in the university, hoping to be accepted at Peace Corps, after which he hopes to work for an NGO.
Or I should say, that’s his hope as of May 18, 2016, at 2:01pm. It will evolve in a zillion ways between now and the time he actually settles into a career. And that’s the beauty of starting out, especially with minimal overhead. You can try doing whatever, and if it doesn’t work out, you move on. Not everyone wants to focus on the quickest possible way to make the most amount of money. What interests you and is driven by your priorities would not interest him one bit, and vice versa.
His father and I specifically do not offer unsolicited advice or weigh in with what we’d do in his situation (unless he asks), as the whole point is this is now his life and career, not ours. We’re excited to watch it unfold and not at all worried about his ability to support himself to his own standards, which will undoubtedly change over time. And if you knew him, you wouldn’t be either. But anyway, it’s interesting to hear your ideas from the other end of the spectrum, charting the most conservative future possible for him.
May 18, 2016 at 3:17 PM #797715ParticipantWell, carli, he could also parlay his sociology degree into teaching, which could also later afford him tenure, which is an ultra-secure way to move thru life in pricey coastal CA, imho. He could work his on-campus job and go thru a teacher credentialing program at the same time while he is still there (as well as get set up in a local student-teaching gig). I may be wrong on this but I believe the CA 7-12 teaching credential is also good for CC instructor jobs. It takes two years to complete.
Thousands of graduates in one of my kids’ HUGE graduating class at SFSU immediately went on to obtain their Master’s Degrees after graduation (at the same institution), mostly in teaching and CA credentialing. CA’s teacher/instructor crop is aging and those numbers are far greater than the numbers of (credentialed) replacements coming thru the system (esp at the secondary and postsecondary levels).
Just an FYI, FWIW :=0
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